The US-Mexico border thread

Obviously I’m not Roland but thought I would chime in since we seem to be playing the blame game and you seem to place the entire load at Trump’s doorstep, so lets look at who’s to blame.

Maybe the parents of these children who came to the US illegally, you might think they should share a portion of the blame?

Or how about congress, since 2001 they have been trying to pass acts like the Dreamer Act. 16 years! I believe it’s Republicans blocking acts like this, so blame the Republicans?

Trump has been a politician with influence for 6 months and the shit heel politicians have been playing hot potato with this issue for 16 years! and you seriously place all the blame at Trump’s door?

Because of the Republican’s intransigence on this issue Obama signed an executive order for DACA, which he had previously noted on many occasions he didn’t have the authority to do so, which is arguable, but I think right, DAPA was rescinded in the court of law, and DACA was facing a dozen lawsuits of its own, IMO they would have won and DACA would have ceased to exist within a couple of months.

This is before you even get into the issue of illegal immigrant voters. If you were a Democrat you would say there is no such thing, but why then fight so hard against voter ID or what Trump is doing looking into voter fraud, wouldn’t you as a Democrat want to assure your opposition illegal immigrants were not being used for political leverage? The Democrats are doing the opposite and fighting tooth and nail over every issue with regards illegal immigrants.

Trump punted this back to congress, where the law should be made, with a 6 month delay in putting it into action and a “lets look at this again” in 6 months approach. I think that’s right, I don’t think tying in voter ID laws or tighter immigration to such a package is unreasonable as you don’t want to revisit this issue every couple of decades.

Perhaps a bit less of the indignant outrage towards Trump and facing up to the fact, there is plenty of blame to go around in all this. The one thing I agree with is it’s not the kids fault, but there it is, at the end of the day congress and the President will need to come up with a solution.

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You’ve missed my point. and are completely arguing about things I’ve never even talked about. I never blamed anyone in what I said about the situation. I just said it’s not the kids fault. And I’m all for finding a solution, I’ve never mentioned the legality of anything. It’s one thing to find a solution. It’s another to use This situation as leverage to get funding for a wall he said Mexico would pay for. That is the only thing I said. Don’t care about democrats republicans as I’m neither.

Politics mate. Democrats want something like the Dreamer act passed, Republicans want voter ID laws and trump wants a wall, put them in a package and everyone signs off on it and everyone gets a bit of what they want.

They say politics is the art of compromise. In reality, politics is the art of getting the other guy to compromise.

If The Donald can pull this off, the establishment Republicans will look like chumps.

And the establishment Democrats will have learned their place.

So if he gets approval for the GGW (Great Great Wall), that makes the people who approved it look like chumps, you say. :ponder:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/chump

Also, and just to add, of course he could have signed an EO as did Obama, but where would that get him? Anger from his base and he would be defending a dozen lawsuits that claim the EO was Presidential overreach (which in all likely hood it is and would be ruled as such). By ending DACA with 6 months deferral what has he done?

Created leverage for something like a wall that would never have got approval through the House and Senate if it were submitted as a bill on it’s own. Maybe, doesn’t need to be used, but leverage exists.

Makes this an issue for Republicans leading up to next years elections, never Trumpers in the right who were pushing for him to extend this EO now need to run on signing something like the Dream Act or Bridge Act and could well face ouster from the party, with a wave of Trump minded politicians taking their place. More leverage.

Plus, he gets to make sure the issue of immigration is front and foremost in peoples mind in the upcoming months to the 2018 midterm elections. I’m sure the Democrats would rather other issues, or at least the issues they choose determine the mid terms. Yet more leverage.

There’s more going on here than meets the eye, Republicans in Congress are waging a war against Trumps agenda and Trump is waging a war against them. Note todays news. Republican leaders in the room ‘shell-shocked’ following Trump deal with Democrats.

And China rejoices as Latin America embraces it as savior. Double whammy for Taiwan. Trump eliminates treaty benefits so the countries must look for new partners outside the region. China buys all without question…more fuel to cutting ties with Taiwan. Moreover, due to anti immigration policies, as the incomes from workers in US sent to Central and South America dry up, and political situation worsens, the leadership will need a win card. Business with China it is. Oh and cheap weapons.

All is interconnected. No Dream Act = bye bye Taiwan.

I think you have taken the butterfly effect a little too far. It’s true with the prospect of NAFTA being rescinded as well as other pressures brought on the Mexico/USA relationship, Mexico is looking to do deals with China, as are other central and South Americans.

But. Trade between Mexico and USA is well above a trillion dollars, exports of produce like avocados, 300 billion, China’s imports from Mexico are in the region of 8 or 9 billion.

Mexico doesn’t have the high ground and claim it can just do business with someone else, USA is the biggest consumer market and Trump can use that to do a deal, with lets say, India, which he has already done, but most people were too busy looking at shiny objects.

Mexico has a lot of oil to export… never mind.

They’ve got tons of cheap labor… never mind.

Wondering why China hasn’t bailed out Venezuela yet.

Eh Central America also has FTA with US. Central America is mostly ROC allied, Mexico isn’t.

As to consumer market, problem is even US buys most stuff from China. That and protectionist measures will slowly and surely drive everyone away.

EDIT:
while looking for something else, found this linkie. Basically, Mexico suffers tremendous economic losses by engaging with China, but there is a lot of pressure to do so.

Because they are selling weapons for oil. See all the footage. China made tanks. China made guns.

That they have it in their pocket is a given, no need to put any more money in there. It is sold.

I like the timing. There have been plenty of dodgy things done from NK during the last decades but Mexico never cared. Now that Trump is going all like:“Fuck off, we’re full”, suddenly Mexico sides with the US on this kind of international issues.

Or maybe the Mexicans are playing 5D chess and this is the way to bend the knee to the Chinese, though I wouldn’t think so.

Nah, just show. There are no consequences in doing so. I mean, no risks, no benefits. Just show.

Hold on a second. You went on a tangent trying to explain how the US will cause the end of Taiwan by sending 800k illegal Mexican migrants back to their country, but you don’t see any direct political/diplomatic benefit for Mexico following their decision to strongly side along the US in the NK issue?

I think she just means ambassadorial expulsions are symbolic, not practical. Canada has been known to do the opposite, withdrawing its own ambassador from a country to say you’re so bad! :no_no:

If there is a benefit, it si collateral. I mean to say that it is not a precalculated siding. Siding with the US is not well seen in that part of the world, for starters. It may be marketed more like a global gesture of distaste towards these people. Mexico will not get any benefits from US by doing anything except paying for the damn wall!

And it is not tangent nor butterfly effect. It is globalization in all its glory. And I was talking about Central America, not Mexico.

Effects on Mexico will not hit Taiwan that bad in terms of diplomatic links because there aren’t any. Business, OTOH, we have to see. Mexico trades a lotta with Taiwan. So does Chile. And Panama is still key. However, if they are put in the spot once China feels king of the world, then my friends, we will be royally *%$#@&! Those countrie sare not the EU and certainly US is looking elsewhere.

I’m really trying to follow what you are saying Icon, I get ROC’s diplomatic relations with central America and don’t want to conflate a bunch of issues, I just had difficulty directly making this connection.

All is interconnected. No Dream Act = bye bye Taiwan.

I mean you say we are not talking about Mexico and then say Mexico does a lot of trade with Taiwan. How much is a lot? and how is all this interconnected? I looked up Taiwans trading partners and got this

China: US$73.9 billion (26.4% of total Taiwanese exports)
Hong Kong: $38.4 billion (13.7%)
United States: $33.6 billion (12%)
Japan: $19.6 billion (7%)
Singapore: $16.2 billion (5.8%)
South Korea: $12.8 billion (4.6%)
Vietnam: $9.6 billion (3.4%)
Philippines: $8.7 billion (3.1%)
Malaysia: $7.8 billion (2.8%)
Germany: $5.9 billion (2.1%)
Thailand: $5.5 billion (2%)
Netherlands: $4.5 billion (1.6%)
United Kingdom: $3.6 billion (1.3%)
Australia: $3.1 billion (1.1%)
India: $2.8 billion (1%)

India only 2.8b ? Now I understand why during the last months there were many meetings between Taiwan and Curry people to improve trade.

Again: my original comment was about effects on Central America, how loss of jobs and income throws them in the arms of China.

Since you guys mentioned mexico, I also pointed out that they were also rushing to China’s arms…to their own harm.

Mexico and a bunch of Latin American countries have good business relations with Taiwan. Those can be threatened any time China wants to, just because they have the upper hand.

Your table does not show, for example, that Chile has a fairly high advantageous trade deficit with Taiwan, they sell not small amounts to Taiwan and buy little.

Not sure how accurate it is, just did a quick google. But it would seem central and South American trade is not that high (relatively speaking), which doesn’t surprise me too much if you have ever taken a flight to Brazil or something. Not exactly the most convenient place to get to from here.

I was thinking Icon was inferring as trade to Central America shifts to China they will stop recognition of ROC, which I get, but how valuable these allies are is always debatable.

But then to equate no Dream Act to no more Taiwan, I don’t get it.