The Venezuela socialism death spiral thread

As I explained, teh situation is not affecting everyone. See a few posts back. You have an elite that has never been encumbered with buttering their toast. A new range of millionaries making like crazy out of corruption and narcotics. An Army and general population intimidated by armed thungs. Poor people dependent on the government to allow them to have food and medical services and they canot buy unless they have the seal of approval as loyal Chavistas.

many governments inm latin America are like thatm, ther eis nothing strange about just dragging along, no rule of law, feudal latifundios linked dependent like heroin addicts on international exports. People are told that is the way things are and give up. The Venezuelans at least are fighting and the forces that hold them down have much more resources, not only weapons, but ruthlessness, lack of humanity, criminals working for the regime… and the international support is greater for the regime than for the people.

Ehm, guys ?

Military joined the opposition. Jailed leader released.

Partial blackout ongoing. Let’s see what the dawn brings…It is mid morning there.

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No transportation, no radio, little communication.

Problem is as night falls, the colectivos are loose and armed, there will be blood.

I just saw a clip of Govermnent vehicle running over some people in the street who were protesting . I won’t post it but things are getting ugly . I sincerely hope that there is no more bloodshed .

“Give up your guns!, the government will protect you”

Looks like this will all revert to a stale-mate yet again . Cuba , Russia , China all support maduro …and the military by the looks of things :pensive:

On the ground you have the colectivos, which are militia/gangs of criminalas armed by the “government” with semi automatics, meaning Maburro´s regime, to “control” the population. They went through the jailed prisioners -not for political resons, of course- and also dragged those -in chains- to fight for the regime in the frontier.

We have the Cubans with heavy weapons and lots of experience in torture techniques turned into gatekeepers of teh local military. The Venezuelan military is locked in their bases because they tend to rebel against Maburro.

Again, try getting small arms, even A47s, against tanquetas, small armored vehicles, smaller than our own leopard vehicles, which where the ones you saw ramming against protesters.

So you want Pedro Perez accountant married with children to man a rifle against granede launchers?

This is more a war of attrition, where Maburro et al have no support except a few hundred foreign soldiers. When internal pressure gives in, and Maburro agrees to be the sacrificial lamb and give up, while the rest of the termites that ate up the riche sof the country flee, well, then maybe someone can take over and try to get theengine of the country going, which is the next urgent step.

Right now it is just wait and see.

People have taken down more reinforced armored vehicles with Molotov cocktails and simple rifles, just saying.

50 cal dessert eagle would go right through any armor of the LAV, best to shoot through the windshield at the driver. Or keep your distance with a 50 cal Barrett rifle and you slice through that like butter.

Andrew, IEDs are sponsored by outside forces with more kachin, and the ones being blown up are not them. I would not like to see common folk in Venezuela blown up for te elite to stay in its Miami penthouse. Please remember the thousand sof Iraki civilians killed because people threw themselves one against the other with a lot of military grade weapons in between. Those fantasies are nice for viudeo games, but believe me, after teh civil wars of teh 80s, the reality is that 20 to 40 people will get killed to maybe damage a small armored vehicle. And you do not want to invite the kind of mess with IEDs. Ask the Afgans how they took down tanks… and the consequences.

Please remember we have the Cubans, the Russians and the Turkish forces already in. Rambo ain´t gonna cut it.

Icon, how many times do you have to witness the government do this to think it’s stupid to hand over guns. Especially living on a island with a recent history of the longest martial law period. So what’s regular folks supposed to do with zero protection. Casualties are going to happen regardless, much better to have a chance than zero to protect yourself and your family. It’s a delusion to think this can’t happen to where you are. Venezuela was one of the wealthiest and stable countries in that region as you know. Guess what, this is the norm. The safe civil society you enjoy is not the norm, and you should know how easy it is to fall apart.

This isn’t a fantasy, this is real as you see know. They are getting slaughtered with zero protection. It’s not about Rambo. It’s about keeping safe. Even if you’re not out there, who’s to stop someone from coming into your home? Drag you to the gulags or whatever terrible fate that is going to happen to you and your family. Idk why you need to keep trying to equate having a gun to being Rambo. No one is saying to go out there and take them all. But a bunch of civilians can definitely gather together and keep a area defended with their family until things die down at least.

It has worked time and time again. Look at these Koreans in LA who were targeted and got sick and tired of it and decided to come together and protect themselves and their property.

https://youtu.be/nzkBGQx3HAc

I don’t understand how you’re always for the common folk. Protecting them from being taken advantage of and hurt in bad conditions. But when it comes to them being able to protect themselves, their families, their property against these assholes who are power hungry and couldn’t give 2 shits about these people and what’s best for them. You say nope. Can’t do that.

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Again, Icon is twioce your age and has been through years of civil war, not a week of riots. Riots are civilians against civilians. Facing trained armies and people who have no qualms to kill for fun more than ideology is something else.

Let´s just say it is a differnet perspective. You gusy can hoard as many guns as you please. The idea is that wehn social ordder breaks and you end in a post apocalyptic scenario like The Road, you can defend your home and family. Very wild west. It will not do regime change. War is a different animal.

Armies train for urban combat. Civilioans do not. A simple gun will not protect you and your family. The hordars in US do gather guns and run to the mounatins. Do you know what it takes to sustain guerrilla fighting? The Venezuelans are mostly city people, they live in a crime infested society, don´t you think they have guns already? Do you see any guns in teh pictures? Why? Becaus ethe others have bigger guns and do not hesitate to shoot. they are trained for it.

The rest is too much nonsense. I am going home to follow whatever little media is leaking out. Now that is something you should be hording: satellite cellphones and solar battery chargers for the electronic devices.

Of all the civil wars I’ve know about. The huge chunk of the armies fighting are basically civilians thrown into war.

Tell that to the Taliban or Vietcongs.

Idk why you try to dismiss the idea by keep making it some dramatic thing. I’m saying it gives people a chance vs 0. There are worse fates than death sadly. Why do you stand up for the common people except when it comes to them being able to protect themselves? Let say my plan is to just gtfo ASAP. You don’t think there are others just as desperate, maybe they will steal my car, my gasoline, my supplies, food and water for the trip. I’m not talking about just taking on armies. Your neighbors can be just as deadly.

I’m not talking about those borders and doomsday prepers with their crazy scenarios. Just basic realistic situations.

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Civilians that can flee, flee.

Eh Taliban have very professional training camps. Ask who trained them.

When the US flooded Central America with arms, they sent people to train them. Even though they were fighting armies, no, they did not give rocket launchers to the rebels/contras/recontras. They need to get organized. That´s why even the Second Amendment says militia, that means trained and organized.

And please do not give weapons to Venezuelans. Things are bad enough without turning it into Lebanon/Syria.

Whatever happens in the US, do as you wish. I see many messages on social media of people using the Venezuelan situation to justify their second amendment. They also use mass murder to justify carrying a weapon. It is their way of thinking, I do not like it, I respect their right to an opinion but I find it abhorrent that they use another country´s tragedy for their own justification.

When it goes to shit. Fleeing is not so simple always. It’s better to have protection.

You’re really missing the point. Throughout history, relatively untrained groups have caused problems for well trained armies. Not just the taliban.

But you’re just straw maning my position to having guns = taking on the army Rambo style or some other dramatic movie. It’s not even that I’m saying the arms are for.

Because it’s a reality check. Civil society is not a guaranteed thing and can go out the window for even the most prosperous and stable nations like Venezuela.

OK, now you are saying armies. That is not the same as armed civilians.

It is not a reality check. It is a frame of mind, a way of looking at the world. More guns are not the solution to every problem. At this point, saying that if Venezuelans had more guns -again, they already have- then they could overthrow Maburro is well, not looking at the facts. They have been defending themselves from colectivos and criminals for quite a while.

Keep the guns over that side of the border.

No I’m not. You’re framing that on me. I’m saying the opposite

Then sorry because I am not understanding/misunderstanding what you are saying.

Non ho capito niente.

I’m saying, you’ve been saying that it’s no use going at the army Rambo style and using dramatic movie references to relate my opinions that it’s important for citizens to have arms. When I’m not saying that’s what I’m saying people should do. It’s mostly for basic denfence, for realistic situations like escaping during chaos and such. Not overthrowing the gov. Although I do think that’s also possible if enough people wanted it.

And places like Libya, with guns are not really worse off. Yes it turned into a blood civil war, but without guns it’s a one sided slaughter. Idk which is worse, but’s arguing one is worse is not really that convincing. And who’s to say they wouldn’t get guns from other people. You’re acting like the United States is the only country possible or supply arms for SA countries that wanted it to rebel for whatever reason. It’s a ridiculous amount of blame you place on the having guns and the United States.

I think it’s ok, @Icon and @Andrew0409 just have a different opinion on guns. People tend to look at things from a different perspective. There are very few absolutes in life, debates about guns are no different.