The Windoze/Macintrash/Penguin Holy Wars

Life Technology
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Whatever the case is, should a computer do everything you want and really help you in life? And shouldn’t it be unbelievably easy and fun?

Somethings Bill Joy has said

Your typical corporate CIO must be wondering, “Why aren’t there some nice new exciting applications for me?” Nothing has really changed in his world, while on the consumer side there’s all this cool new stuff like iTunes and the iPod and iPhoto and iMovie. That’s where the real innovation is now, and Apple is driving it. - Bill Joy

"Everyone in every corner of the software business could learn a lot from iLife.

And he’s said OS X is the best operating system in the world.

This is the person that did the tcp/ip stack pretty much used everywhere, invented nfs, nis?, vi, bsd virtual memory, and so many other things.

Even Bill Gates says computers are much harder to use than they need to be. But do we see Windows getting any easier? Can you put a computer in front of someone that’s never seen one in their life, and just leave them alone? Someday you’ll be able to with a mac. maybe 10 or 15 years.

how many people in this industry really try to create the best thing in the world? How many of them care about beauty or design? Or really think simplicity. If a car was a pain in the ass to use, would you know any better if that was the only way? Even something simple like a cup design you could look at and say wow, that’s amazing. They really understand how people use or could use cups.

computers today just suck. Apple made a video in the 80’s about what they think computers will look like someday. We’ll see.

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Bill Joy also warns about a Matrix like uprising of machines if we do not check some of the fields of our innovation. But then when I met him I assure you that he is definitely extremely intelligent.

I think when it comes down to it, whatever works is that who prevails. For example, BSD is even better than Linux in terms of security and stability, but you dont hear as many industry professionals raising as much hoohaa about it. Plus BSD is not ideal for the home user. Since most applications are written for Windows, it is generally most desirable. Like Sony, Apple innovates in terms of usability, but they are certainly not the biggest. Just like how Matsushita towers over Sony, Windows towers over Macosx.Like how Ipods generally suck, but they are still the most popular, much the way Windows sucks too, but it still most popular.

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I know Bill Joy is very very very smart. Have you read a lot of what he’s currently said? I think I’ve probably seen most of it. Interviews, articles, whatever…

As for everything else, I think it’s hard to say what sucks or not. I used to do that, now I just try to understand things…

I’m curious what you don’t like about the iPod. Nothing can be perfect of course, but does it reach it’s goals? is it easier to use than most? imagine a new user, we’re different from them. Is a new user more likely gonna be confused by other things?

what should it’s goals be?
can you look at every single minute detail and understand why they did that?
what is digital music?

think about the bigger questions.

Bill Joy uses an iPod mini. Not sure if he has other iPods, probably. He has good taste in music.

design is hard.

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Actually the iPod is harder for the new user to use than standard flash players. Flash players rely on the standard play-pause-fast forward-rewind sort of button layout, which everyone is familiar with from tape decks and CD players. It’s second nature. The iPod isn’t. It also includes unnecessary and potentially confusing bloat, whereas flash players just do what they say on the tin. Plus the iPod is ridiculously overpriced and iTunes is a resource hog.

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I agree the iPod is harder than a standard flash player. So they have the Shuffle. What they did is debatable. It’s easier to use than other flash players with menus and a bigger interface.

I’ve used so many flash players and played around with the iRiver H10 iPod mini competitor. Ever try it? It’s pretty complicated. It had the 1.0 firmware which is said to have many problems.

iTunes i a resource hog. But imagine someone with 500 CDs in their collection. Do you want winamp or something easier to use? Let’s ignore that it’s a resource hog. On the mac, it’s less so. On the PC, I assume they did their best and are continuing to try. After all, it’s still the first version for PC. 5.0 might be better.

Is iTunes easy to use? Imagine someone with 10,000 music files. Can you imagine an easier to use interface? Is MusicMatch, Windows Media Player, Napster, or any alternative easier for the new user? Or even an experienced user, if something can take less clicks and give you faster access to anything you want, isn’t that preferable?

I’m not saying iTunes is perfect. I’m sure Apple isn’t even saying that. But what direction are they going? if you prefer something else, that’s cool. I’ve tried so many many players and problems. Remember I’ve used PCs since 1984 and have used pretty much ever version of Windows since 3.1. I know Windows so so so well. And so many other Microsoft products and Windows apps. And Linux.

I’m willing to give up extra functionality if the core of the program is easier and quicker to get stuff done. Remember what I said about Pages and Word? I’m not a fan of Word. It is powerful. But when I want to do simple things like insert a picture or do some hardcore formatting of my document, Word can take a while to do those things. And yes I know how to do them very well. I’ve used so many programs and so many different types of programs.

Indesign, quark, word, excel, powerpoint, pages, keynote, photoshop, illustrator, flash, sound apps (a little), freehand, fireworks, dreamweaver, golive, final draft, outlook, most version of windows, so many things from norton, mcafee, cisco, netscreen, veritas, on and on…

I want simple and elegant. I want fast and productive. if I have to give up somethings I’m willing to. And Apple is just starting out. They haven’t had a lot of time to really get going. We’ll see how they turn out.

Who is innovating right now? Bill Joy says Apple is. I agree. Disagree, that’s cool. Let’s just try to understand technology.

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I wonder what other tech companies care about design. When I think about it. Palm. I love Palm. if you don’t, that’s cool. Who else?

Any other that’s won countless awards for design? Hmm. Logitech, a few I think.

Apple? all the time, even for their ads and commercials. Clios, adverising awards, design awards, business week, everywhere. And the 1984 commercial by Ridley Scott has been named the best commercial in the last 50 years.

Any other company that can get people to love them so much? I’m not sure there’s many in tech.

Either way, tech is just beginning. We’re in the first few decades of hundreds or thousands of years of change. Who knows what will happen.

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I agree that Apple is innovative, but innovation for innovation’s sake isn’t always a good thing. Innovation needs purpose and utility to get anywhere.

The iPod Shuffle is an overpriced waste of time - more expensive than other flash players, no display to see what song is on… looks pretty though. It’s crippleware. And as for the “imagine someone with 10,000 songs” thing - well, I might be a thousand or so off, but I’ve never found Winamp to be at all a problem, even less so now, with the Media Library addition (which does owe a bit to iTunes). I still think iTunes is clumsily executed. Too much attention to good looks, not enough to good programming. But if all you want to do is turn your PC into a jukebox, iTunes is good. If you want to do anything else with it at the same time you’re shit out of luck though. And while the idea of integration is good, if all I want to do is listen to music, I don’t want to be forced to load up a music player-CD burner-CD ripper-Organizer-Tagger-Coffee roaster all at once. If they could modularize iTunes it would improve it greatly, I think. So you can decide exactly what elements you want in it.

And what do you mean “Apple is just starting out”? Nonsense. They started like 20 years ago, they’ve had plenty of time to work it out. They’ve just been too busy in their own private universe for the bulk of those 20 years.

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I’m currently at 16,686 songs. iTunes manages just great, and it’s a snap to find and play any song, artist, album or whatever.

I also tend to agree with criticisms on the iPod Shuffle. I still can’t quite get using a player with no display. It seems pretty obvious to me that they wanted to hit certain price points (now they have a whole range of players from USD99 to USD499 to fit any budget) with the Shuffle, and this probably led to compromises.

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Sony, Panasonic, Nintendo… and that’s just off the top of my head.

Yes, but I don’t buy tech stuff because it’s pretty, I buy it because I want it to do stuff.

Makes no difference how slick their advertising is. People aren’t buying the adverts, are they? They’re certainly paying for it though.

Nintendo and Sony for starters. And while they might not be as vocal as their opposition or as zealous as others, there are quite a few MS fanboys around too. God only knows why though.

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Shuttle has good design for both style and engineering.

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Palms ROCK! I’ve had one ever since the good ol’ PalmPilot.

Anyway, while you two were going on about iPods (which I also think to be pretty cool) I was reading this:

Why the future doesn’t need us. - by Bill Joy

Thanks for the name drop :slight_smile:

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when I think of good design, I don’t normally think tech. I think of design in any field.

miltownkid, yes interesting article.

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Since I don’t lug around amps, I want my MP3 player’s built in Amp to be of top notch quality, which is why I prefer iRiver.

I want a combination of reference quality or above, anything less is not acceptable.

I find that the sound quality of the Ipods are a bit lack luster although I’ve heard some good reviews about its line out (for those of you who carry your own Amps.)

Since iRiver’s are generally the swiss army knife of MP3 players, I have a few of those.

We should move our topic, we’re deviating.

Design is important in operating systems as well. But I mean I think I’ve sufficiently pointed out, people just want something that works.

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You would consider iRiver reference quality?

What quality do you listen to your music at? What headphones do you use?

I use 224 AAC although I still want lossless. As for the amps, I doubt I’d be happy with anything less than the best amp ever made, period. If I can distinguish it from real life, it’s not good enough.

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[quote=“gary”]You would consider iRiver reference quality?

What quality do you listen to your music at? What headphones do you use?

I use 224 AAC although I still want lossless. As for the amps, I doubt I’d be happy with anything less than the best amp ever made, period. If I can distinguish it from real life, it’s not good enough.[/quote]

I use Etymotic ER6’s. Cheap and portable. Most sources are poor so too bad, it won’t sound like real life.

Anyone consider gaming and OS’s? Windows is best for gaming. It depends. Alot of the linux users here migrated and last used a Dos based windows system and have little experience with NT 5.1 or 5.2. I especially like Windows Server 2003, even over XP.

Mac’s feel a bit sluggish and are sort of expensive versus the PC rig that I can build. I guarantee a G5 is not faster than my AMD 64 XP 3200+ that only costs $200 for motherboard and processor (got it back in late 2004). Maya runs super smooth on my computer. Plus Unreal Tournament 2004 maxes out on my computer at over 80 frames with everything on high, something that doesn’t happen on a Mac.

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:slight_smile: yeah I prefer Windows Server 2003 over XP. Never used it much except to setup an Exchange 2003 system. Worked well. So much easier than Domino or any of the freeware groupware apps.

True Intel and AMD are leading G5’s in many aspects of speed. Really I haven’t read much about it. I know all the next gen consoles like PS3 and Xbox 350 are using PowerPC; that’s gotta say something. We’ll see how IBM does.

Still I’d prefer a mac over a PC. After having used PCs, DOS, and Windows for so many years, I really like the simplicity of a Mac; I get stuff done so much quicker. Navigating, searching for files, organizing things really is so much more pleasant. Even after getting all sorts of shortcut utilities, alternate shells, and such for Windows, it’s just not fun to use for me anymore.

And I’ve been looking at spreadsheets these days with really small type. I prefer antialiased text on a Mac. Too many reasons why I’ll never go back to Windows.

Longhorn shows some potential but all the screenshots so far of their Aero interface could be improved quite a bit. Microsoft still has a long way to go in interface design; they don’t even know how to use color. What a basic thing. :slight_smile:

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I guess it depends on yourself. No one should feel forced to use a certain OS. Most people just use windows, since it comes with their computers and they don’t even bother to think about anything else. And once they get used to their windows they just stick to it. Every OS requires some knowledge and understanding about it. The difference in between windows, mac and linux is that in linux programmer usually equals end user. No one tries to make the world easier for you with “wizards” or anything. And it is free. Free in terms of money. Free in terms of what you want to do with it. Free in terms of choice. There is so many different applications that run on linux -all free. And considered that no one controls or keeps track of linux and the individual distributions it si still amazing what people archived. Most people don’t see the difference between as truly free operating system and something like windows and mac. But the guys that write linux and all these great open source programs to it for fun, not for money.
What bothers me is that companies are already trying to take away your freedom using technology. DVDs can only be viewed in certain regions. Audio and video stream can be viewed, but not downloaded. Soon there will be e-books that you can only read for a given period of time. By default Windows Media Player downloads licenses of the web. This is taken away the users’ freedom. It is limiting peoples ability to actually work with their machines. Linux and Open Source apps do not do that. Linux gives you back your freedom. I believe that everyone should be free, so if you love your windows OS, use it. From time to time I do to. I have to, since so many other people use windows. And yes, it is always easier to follow the mainstream. But I seek freedom. So do what you want. I do not want to convince you to use anything you don’t like or aren’t familiar with. But at least know that there is another way. The best way to “feel” linux is to use a live-cd, such as Knoppix (knoppix.net).

linux.org/
google.com/linux Google’s linux search
sourceforge.net Huge Collection of open source projects
google.com/linux
microsuck.com/ funy anti-microsoft site.
distrowatch.com check out the different flavours of linux

sunpascal

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WE ARE FREE, NO ONE IS TAKING IT AWAY
I disagree with the idea that Windows is not “free”. You’re given a choice to pay a company for their software, like Suse (which is Linux), or get something free like Gentoo (which is also Linux). Windows will not take away our freedom because we have other choices like Linux, MacOSX, BSD, and many others.

I also wouldn’t go so far as to say about 90% of the world doesn’t stop to think if there’s better alternatives than Windows. The fact is for all intents and purposes, for the end user, Windows is just fine. There may be better, but in reality you don’t have to be best at everything to be a winner. (Tiger is great at golf but he’s not #1 in any particular skill, all his skills are mostly top twenty, so its the combination.)

PIRACY AND FREEDOM ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS
As for the latter part about Free this and that, producers have a right to copyright their materials and put a barrier against Piracy. There is a difference between piracy and freeware/public property.

WANT TO TRY LINUX?
Knoppix is great, but the best way to get a feel for Linux is to use Xandros, because it has a familiar Windows-like interface. They have a free version for everyone to try out. Its really very easy to use and quick to install. Lindows/Linspire is an okay alternative, but nowhere near as intuitive as Xandros.

Note, Linux’s greatest flaw is that it doesn’t have a killer platform or killer software that is must have. Anything thats really hot on software is already available for Windows. However that will soon change I believe as software companies become ever larger and want to appeal to the BSD audience, which will certainly boost Linux for those who won’t pay for Macintels in 2006.

PS: There are already ebooks that you can only ‘borrow’ for a certain time. This technology enables the New York Public Library (nypl.org) to lend out books online, making it a great convenience.

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ShrimpCrackers,
Linux doesn’t need a killer app. And since most software on linux is open source it can be easily ported to windows. Of course good apps are being ported to windows, which is just fine.
I disagree with the fact that windows is “just fine”. It’s not as fast, stable and secure. Linux isn’t bug-free, but since many people develop it at the same time (and many users report bugs) updates and fixes are released very quickly. Also, there is tons of adware, spyware and viruses on windows.
And windows is far more expensive than any linux, and not just the license for every PC. Microsoft also forces people to update and don’t support older versions.
Windows also lacks features that linux has and takes up far more disk space and resources. Check out “What’s So Bad About Microsoft?” at kmfms.com/whatsbad.html.

Now about freedom: read “Can you trust your computer?” at newsforge.com/business/02/10 … tml?tid=19.

This is what I meant.

But well, if you love your windows and if you have too much money to waste go ahead and use windows.

sunpascal