Theism vs. Atheism: Civil Discussion

Always look on the bright side of mass burial, do do, do do, do do, do do

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The disciples were defeated, fearful, and hiding. They were not willing to risk their own lives to fight through roman soldiers and Jewish guards to “roll back a large stone” and steal a dead body. What would be the purpose for doing that if they knew he was dead? If Jesus were dead, then he would have been delusional, a liar, or a false prophet. The disciples would have moved on and considered their hopes dashed. But they didn’t do that. Instead, they boldly proclaimed Jesus as risen from the dead and went to their deaths to affirm that reality. It only makes sense that they would have done this if Jesus rose from the dead, strengthened their conviction that he was the Messiah, and gave them the hope of salvation.

Cognivitive Dissonance: if you truly believe something, you’re not going to give up that belief. William Miller, a preacher in the 1840s, predicted the date for the Second Coming. Tens of thousands sold their farms and businesses to gather on hilltops and wait on the predicted night. Historically it’s known as the Great Disappointment- Jesus didn’t show up, and many were disillusioned and angry. Others reached the conclusion it meant that they had been mistaken- Jesus had not come in glory to Earth, but had that day ascended to His throne in Heaven- they became the Second Day Adventists, currently 20 million strong.
If you were a poor disillusioned disciple, thinking you were about to get a special place- Jesus had promised His 12 disciples rulership over the 12 tribes of Israeland suddenly it was all over and you’re thinking “everyone’s gonna laugh at me back home- maybe I can beg my brother-in-law for a place back on the fishboat” and Peter shows up and says “He’s alive! I’ve seen Him.”
P,S. They did not go off to their deaths- the only deaths recorded were James the brother of Jesus and James the brother of John (one sentence).

1> . No contrary evidence was produced.

If Jesus didn’t really rise, the opponents of Christianity would have produced the evidence of the dead body or the tomb to stop the spread of Christianity. For that matter, if their “testimonies” didn’t jibe, enemies of Christianity would have exposed the errors. The disciples were appealing to a “common knowledge” when they spoke of Jesus’ resurrection. It appears that even non-Christians didn’t outright deny the resurrection. The earliest anti-Christian apologists didn’t suggest that there was a dead body, Jesus didn’t rise, or that the story was made up even though this would have been the easiest way to disprove the resurrection and end Christianity in its earliest stages.
2. Roman historians give historical recognition.
There wasn’t a lot written about Jesus by Roman historians, but for a Jewish religious figure that should be expected. Comparatively speaking, more was written about Jesus than most other historical figures who were not generals or rulers. What was written tends to confirm many of the details in the Gospels including Jesus, his death, Pilate, the growth of the Church, and the claim that he rose from the dead. Tacitus, Josephus, Suetonius, and Pliny the Younger are historians that mention Jesus. Although this doesn’t prove that Jesus rose from the dead, it does counter the argument some made that Jesus never existed and the story was invented by later believers and situate him firmly in the historical record. Any event can be "doubted away” but it is not reasonable to do that to Jesus for any true student of history.

So the disciples marched into the authorities and demand they produce the body of Jesus. As pointed out, bodies of executed criminals were usually dumped into mass graves, and not readily available for digging up and identification.
But let’s say there was a reasonable member of authority. He might reply “We say this Jesus was executed, you agree he was executed, but you claim he rose from the dead. OK, if you say he is alive, why not… show him as alive?”
To which the Christian replies “He doesn’t feel like it- He could if He wanted, but He doesn’t want to.”
Nuff said for now

I got deleted over the the regular earthquake thread for posting earthquake psalm references. Which is definitely fair enough, but I thought why not post it again here in its more relevant home.

Anyway the shake reminded me of the most convincing proof that god definitely exists, earthquakes!

Also I guess they are metaphorical, like we have not just actual earthquakes but metaphorical ones in our lives. The worst is when the waves from all of the seismic events overlap constructively to cause soil liquefaction which can knock you off your feet. I had a rough time this week as the ex, the far east tone scam litigator deamons, and a couple of other disconcerting forces came after me simultaneously making the earth shake and this was before turtle Islands head fell off. This is why I thought of Psalm 46 and specifically these words on seeing the turtles head - no toilet pun references intended - fall into the sea.

The heavy earth moved,
But we have no reason to fear:
Even if the great mountains were thrown
Beneath the foaming sea and waves

What did your ex do that was disconcerting?

Angry phone call. I wont go into the details. And I had just hung up from an aggressive phone call from the phone scammers lawyers, neighbours smoke simultaneously wafting in my window etc, so I was definitely feeling wobbly for a moment. Feeling better now again.

What’s that about?

They started heaping fees for services I had not purchased like insurance and movie streaming onto my phone bill and they cut me off. Now they say they will sue me to get the fees for the stuff I never purchased plus the monthly fee for the service that they already cut off since last July. Threatening phone calls to me and to the ex about it from some debt collection goons. Of course that set her off on one. Its not really ideal, and going down at the same time as the earthquake shakes, I am arguing with these idots while the whole place is wobbling, lol.

Far East Tone: I’d never sign another phone contract again with them or anyone else after this experience.

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Yikes.

Yeah just take it to the cops and say it’s extortion. I had experience with goons before. I got rid of them. Nasty people.

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Was it going to the cops that sorted it for you? Sorry this is completely off topic, although maybe not as the reason the psalm occured to me is that ‘God is an ever present help in times of trouble’. From the Psalm 46. Another source of strength that I got was St Patricks breast plate. This is what I scribbled down after getting a tag team sequence of incoming aggressive phone calls: first from the goons, then from the ex, mid earthquake:

The Tramp is feeling a bit desperate: crazy shit is popping up at too high a frequency. The earth trembles both within and without. A horde of demons assault him. He prepares his shield.

I summon

The winds journey
The Mariana trench
The balanced land
The hard rock
The light of the sun,
The the white of the moon
The fires fuse
The flash of lightning
The boldness of enter
The rythym of meter
The coherence of rhyme
The entropy of drive
Clara protect me now
Against the smoke and poison
Against the theft of leech
Against the swinging lemur
Against the sweeping horde
Might uphold me
Wisdom teach me
Eye watch over me
Power guide me
Clara, clarae, clara
Clararis Claris Clarum

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Yeah Psalms are great . It’s interesting to see people , noble, educated people still calling out in times of trouble , and those troubles haven’t changed. We go on with the same suffering, persecution, gossip, false accusation it’s all in psalms. We are connected to them in shared suffering.
Actually it was against one of my grown up kids and I got it sorted through the local Li Zang (Community leader).

@profanaptronym

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As I pointed out, the Almighty’s aim is pretty bad. Which god is it, BTW- Poseidon, Yahweh, Loki? (The other Norse gods punished him by dripping venom from a poisonous snake onto his face. His wife patiently collects it in a bowl, sheltering him, but every now and then she has to turn aside to empty it, and the poison drips onto his face, causing him to go into convulsions, thus causing earthquakes- you can find it in any good geology textbook.

Which god, well obviously it’s Dana - Gaia if you prefer Greek - it varies by culture, basically though no doubt you can indeed look it up in the god Geology religious textbooks of any culture which has begun the profound endeavour of communicating about our planet. I don’t know about that norse one though, yikes :slightly_smiling_face:

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In her article announcing her conversion to Christianity, Ayaan Hirst Ali gave three reasons:

  • opposition to the CCP and Putin’s Russia as a threat to the West.
  • opposition to Islamism as a threat to the West.
  • (a little bathos) woke college students.

A surprising absence was any mention of God, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, or any personal event concerning her conversion. (After receiving criticism from atheists and Christians alike, she published a hastily-penned more personal account).

St. Augustine, she ain’t ( “I converted to this new religion because of threats to Rome by the Sassanid Empire, attacks from the Germanic barbarian tribes, and those damn kids from the Academy in Athens and their crazy ideas.”

Stephen Woodford of Rationality Rules calls such people “cuckoo Christians”, not because they’re crazy of course, but because of the cuckoo chick’s habits of taking over another bird’s nest, pushing the original fledglings out, and setting up a raucous screaming to be fed by the poor overwhelmed parents. This is what the Jordan Petersons, Ayaan Hirst Alis, Russell Brands, etc., do. They are not particularly interested in Christianity; they simply occupy the nest and use it as a base for their own right-wing squawking.

I’m a firm believer in the precept that bad religion is worse - far worse - than no religion.

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:confused:

yes you being born is a miracle -

All the moving parts that have to align for you to come out alive and in one piece…and then to survive for the first year.

Not appreciating that fact is on you. How many parents wished that their kid was born….how many still births or complications are there in spite of medical advances….:confused:

You being alive is a daily miracle

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Plenty of babies aren’t so lucky. Nature is imperfect. If your god does that on purpose, it still proves nothing.

Not appreciating that fact is on you.