Um, insidious racism/snobbery/tribalistic jingoism? Do I win a cookie?
[quote=“kaiwen338”]Buttercup and Tempo Gain, thanks for the comments.
I was not trying to be offensive or draw hasty conclusions. Just verbalizing some thoughts to get feedback from esteemed Forumosans to lead to better understanding and perception on my part.
Ironlady, I speak more Taiwanese than you might know. :discodance: Kao Yao![/quote]
Cheers, you’re not the first to make such an observation, it’s kind of a pet peeve.
I use kaoyao as a handle here and there lol
Erm, ‘biscuit’, you low-prestige variety pleb. 
Erm, ‘biscuit’, you low-prestige variety pleb. [/quote]
Oh dear, no. A biscuit is something entirely different to us Norte Americanos and inferior to a cookie in every way.
Great point, indeed. It does not sound logical. Logic does not often apply when the ruling elite make the rules to benefit themselves. Prime examples are available around the world throughout history, not just in Taiwan.
Again, I’m commenting on what I’ve observed and posing questions to the group for the sake of understanding. Perhaps my verbiage indicates a foregone conclusion, but the written word is open to interpretation.
Erm, ‘biscuit’, you low-prestige variety pleb. [/quote]
Oh dear, no. A biscuit is something entirely different to us Norte Americanos and inferior to a cookie in every way.[/quote]
tingshuo some of you Norte Americanos speak Canadian. You don’t get a vote.
Completely off topic but I ate a ‘biscuit’ at Popeye’s chicken in HK airpot on the chief and Erhu’s say-so. It was like a scone with coleslaw on it, coupled with some weirdy fried chicken. Grrrross. Although I’m sure they’re different if your gran makes 'em. Really, ‘what’s that all about?’, as they say in your primitive and unsophisticated new world grunt?
Erm, ‘biscuit’, you low-prestige variety pleb. [/quote]
Oh dear, no. A biscuit is something entirely different to us Norte Americanos and inferior to a cookie in every way.[/quote]
Not at all! I’ll take a luscious, fluffy southern biscuit over a Chips-A-Whore cookie any day. 
Right about the granny part, one of granny’s slathered with butter and honey (non-dead-insect-laden) and some “proper” granny fried chicken–wrong about expecting a good meal at an airport fast food greasepot lol
One more before my drunk ass hauls off to bed.
If we look at Asian financial and trade powerhouses like Singapore and Hong Kong, both with multiple official languages including English, and observe their massive wealth in relation to physical area, we have to ask the reasons for their strong positions in the Global Economy.
Is it location, location, location? Sure, that’s part of it.
Or is it their ability to handily conduct business in many languages with many countries? 
Yes, Mandarin is not an official language of Hong Kong (yet), but many Hong Kong people speak it.
Yes, Taiwan also does business with many countries. I would posit that the majority of this is purely manufacturing and export based on specs from elsewhere. Is it not obvious that those in the more powerful and higher earning roles in such companies are competent English speakers? If English was not valued by many that wish for their children to have a bright future, would half of the people on this forum even be here?
Yes, I’ve spun this thread off onto a tangent.
Pick apart my logic and enlighten me, but let’s all agree on one thing:
[ul]
If we all had the same thoughts, opinions, and beliefs, forums like this would be extremely boring. What with us all telling each other how right we are all the time.[/ul]
[quote=“Buttercup”]You can’t perpetuate your native language. You are born to it. Any attempt to promote or suppress someone’s native language is generally doomed because it assumes an authority that has an incredibly high level of controll over every aspect of people’s lives. It is also completely fascistic…
I have a northern English accent, [/quote]
And you’re speaking English and not British because…? And people here speak Mandarin more than any other native language because…? And…and…and…and so on and so forth. Language can be forced upon people. It has worked many times before and succeeded.
I don’t think he meant that people who speak one language are necessarily high or low class. I think he means that low class behaviour is more commonly associated with Minnan speaking in Taiwan.
Whether he did or didn’t mean that, that’s what I tend to think. Its not to say that Mandarin speaking doesn’t have its fair share of ‘lowclassedness’. I can use that word because I am speaking American English at this time. 
I’m Canadian. We say, "oh dear, what could the fucking matter be?’ in my part of the world.
[quote=“kaiwen338”]One more before my drunk ass hauls off to bed.
If we look at Asian financial and trade powerhouses like Singapore and Hong Kong, both with multiple official languages including English, and observe their massive wealth in relation to physical area, we have to ask the reasons for their strong positions in the Global Economy.
Is it location, location, location? Sure, that’s part of it.
Or is it their ability to handily conduct business in many languages with many countries?
[/quote]
I tend to think that these successes are the remnants of something they used to call the British empire. Hong Kong is a classic example of what Britain can achieve abroad but not at home, just so we can prove to the world that we could do better, but we prefer to remain miserable so that we have something to complain about.
And for those wondering what people in my neck of the woods sound like A Geordie Poem.
[quote=“sulavaca”][quote=“Buttercup”]You can’t perpetuate your native language. You are born to it. Any attempt to promote or suppress someone’s native language is generally doomed because it assumes an authority that has an incredibly high level of controll over every aspect of people’s lives. It is also completely fascistic…
I have a northern English accent, [/quote]
And you’re speaking English and not British because…? And people here speak Mandarin more than any other native language because…? And…and…and…and so on and so forth. Language can be forced upon people. It has worked many times before and succeeded.[/quote]
I’m English? I speak a hybrid of Latin, Danish, German, Norwegian, Icelandic and Norman French because my country was invaded and a migration destination by/for these groups. I myself am racially Pictish and Saxon in equal amounts (yes, someone in my family is that bored and geeky). You misunderstand what I mean by ‘forced’. Modern English developed completely organically due to immigration and trade. At no point was the bastard mixture of tongues ‘imposed’ by anyone else on the peoples that inhabited modern England. There’s a lot of evidence to support this.
Welsh, Manx, and Cornish slowly diminished organically, as did other Q Celtic languages in France. This pattern is seen throughout Europe as larger modern day countries such as Italy, France, Germany and Spain began to establish themselves.
It depends what you mean by ‘imposed’. Of course the PRC insist that all Chinese people speak mandarin if not as their first language, then equally well. I read an article that disputes that utterly (Dammit, but I can’t remember where). There are very few cases when language has been imposed by a government and has been successful. It’s an act of extreme cultural hostility and is completely unworkable without a totalitarian state apparatus in force for generations. When cultures choose to change languages, then that language needs to fulfil certain conditions. The language needs to be easily learned (otherwise you just get pidgins which are not invalid, but not the prestige language either), there needs to be tangible economic or social benefit for the person on the street, not simply educated elites.
Look at it the other way around. Why doesn’t everyone speak Mandarin and English rather than Hakka, Taiwanese, etc? Cracking that one will give you more answers than the other way around.
No one would claim that Bretons spoke Welsh or Welsh spoke Breton, yet both are mutually intelligible. Could this analogy be applied to Min nan vs. Taiwanese or are they too much similar?
Which analogy?
As far as I know, Breton and Welsh are close but not mutually intelligible - very different influences, due to English and French close by.
I don’t think he meant that people who speak one language are necessarily high or low class. I think he means that low class behaviour is more commonly associated with Minnan speaking in Taiwan.
Whether he did or didn’t mean that, that’s what I tend to think. Its not to say that Mandarin speaking doesn’t have its fair share of ‘lowclassedness’. I can use that word because I am speaking American English at this time. [/quote]
I think it’s safe to say that “low-class” or maybe better “less educated” people in Taiwan are more likely to speak Minnan Hua than Mandarin. But that doesn’t mean that well educated people don’t speak Taiwanese as their preferred language, especially in the south.
But who is anybody to label people like that? That leads to more social divisions and less linguistic mobility, not more. ‘These people despise me and and my family; I’d better try and speak like them’? There aren’t enough social and economic push factors for people to fully adapt Mandarin in Taiwan. If it were genuinely better for them, they would have done so.
The world would be very different if people always did what was better for them. This idea is fairly Pollyannaish as it hinges on logic and common sense: Two ideals that do not always drive the actions of people. Many people act instinctively and irrationally. People’s actions are often products of their experiences and observations over time; not calculated thought or cost/benefit analysis.
If people were inclined to do the genuinely better action:
[ul]Everyone would exercise for 30 minutes a day and eat a balanced diet.
Nobody would smoke, drink, or do drugs.
Nobody would drop out of school.
Everyone would wear seatbelts.
Nobody would wear those plastic scooter helmets with no padding or straps that look like they’re from a costume shop.
The list could go on an on…[/ul]
Perhaps actions depend on one’s definition of “better”. To some, better could mean more wealth. To others, better could mean a happier, stronger, healthier family life.
The world would be very different if people always did what was better for them. This idea is fairly Pollyannaish as it hinges on logic and common sense: Two ideals that do not always drive the actions of people. Many people act instinctively and irrationally. People’s actions are often products of their experiences and observations over time; not calculated thought or cost/benefit analysis.
If people were included to do the genuinely better action:
[ul]Everyone would exercise for 30 minutes a day and eat a balanced diet.
Nobody would smoke, drink, or do drugs.
Nobody would drop out of school.
Everyone would wear seatbelts.
Nobody would wear those plastic scooter helmets with no padding or straps that look like they’re from a costume shop.
The list could go on an on…[/ul]
Perhaps actions depends on one’s definition of “better”. To some, better could mean more wealth. To others, better could mean a happier, stronger, healthier family life.[/quote]
But that’s the point. Languages do not fit on this list at all. Just to clarify what I meant, people don’t even think about the question of which language they speak; they just do what they want. People don’t think; ah, I might be richer if my Mandarin were better, (by ‘people’, I mean the majority of ordinary, working people, children, etc) they simply do what is natural. And unless it significantly benefits the majority, on a tangible right-now basis, it’s not a benefit, it’s an investment of time or deferred gratification with little guarantee of success. Not going to happen.
Languages change and are are adopted/die out for reasons of expediency only. Taiwan just doesn’t have a ‘need’, although I am predicting, fairly uncontroversially, that Mandarin will become more of a lingua franca in the coming decades.