Time for a change

In the end I think it is a personal choice that has consequences you deal with as an adult–not really a question of integrity. If Okami can get away with bypassing this country’s draconian work laws, then more power. It isn’t like he has asked anyone to bail him out if he gets busted.

But self-imposed life on the lam in a developing country seems like a stunt for your early 20s. I pity the poor fool without the proper work papers who finds themselves stealing someone else’s students/clients/business, or when their Psycho Xiaojies/Boy Toys lose it and get them busted for working illegally. This is one advantage of having an ARC. For goodness sake, it isn’t like the taxes are spectacularly high in this country.

Best point on this thread yet. Everyone, even BH I’m guessing, has had a private student, and hence, is in no position to criticize.[/quote]

Have I?

Mapo do fu,

I have been in the same position. When I was in that position it did ruin my health. Not having a good enough contract was my own fault and not finding a good enough employer was also my own fault. However, I don’t see why I should have to jump through all the government hoops to do things the right way and others take the illegal way out to get the same thing.

Maoman,

You have made a point yourself on the boards in the past about starting a cram school and going through all the hoops to make things legal. In other threads people get jumped all over for taking the easy illegal way out, but now it’s lovable Okami declaring this kind of behavior to be an option. Doesn’t this smell like Tea#$it?

Final statement:

Yes, more power to Okami while he gets away with it and I know that he won’t be looking for someone to bail him out when he gets caught. What I object to is this being presented as an option. Like it or not the way things are in Taiwan are the way things are. Two wrongs do not make a right, just because the law is stupid and wrong (and I agree that it is), it doesn’t mean that we should feel free to break those laws.

I would never be one of those ratting on Okami and I certainly wouldn’t give him a job, that’s my choice. He can do what he does, no problem. However, in my opinion it is still wrong. Do it but keep it to yourself and keep it off the forum boards because we don’t need a whole lot of foreigners behaving the same way.

Sorry if you all disagree, this is my opinion only, not a high horse ride or judgement of others, just a sincere opinion, I guess you could say personal conviction.

[quote] Broken laws count so far = at least 20
If you think I’ll fess up to what they are - NO WAY![/quote]

Boss Hogg, Fri 14 February in the ‘How many laws have you broken’ thread.

I’ve contemplated the ‘totally illegal’ route, but there seem to be plenty of ways that you can be at least semi-legal - ie get an ARC from somewhere - and the benefits of doing so outweigh the costs. All it takes is one little screw-up to attract attention at the wrong moment and your wheels, deposit on your apartment, personal relationships, unpaid earnings, freedom to choose your own future, etc. can all be kissed goodbye as you hustle down to the airport. Weigh that against a little bit of tax. I know that I screw up from time to time, and have yet to meet anyone who doesn’t.

Make a fair attempt to be seen to be abiding by laws that are enforced by officials that I have always found to be pretty sympathetic, and your chances of holding on to the benefits of your labour are increased dramatically. Cing YA seems like a smart option.

Hence my interest in starting my own business, as the best way forward. I did this in Germany back in the mid-90s. Had the labour authorities wanted to enforce the law absolutely they could have arrested me. Instead I had them referring people to me either to work under my license or replicate what I had done. Taiwan is a different situation, but I haven’t seen anything to suggest that this principle doesn’t hold true here.

And there is also the issue of self-respect. Why be a fly-by-night backpacker type (not you, Okami, just lots of people like you) when you can be recognised (and paid?!?!) as a professional with a quality service to offer? Me, I will go for the higher status anytime and cut out all those losers in buxibans that want to hire me for some poxy rate.

The whole point of being self-employed is not that you get paid legally-ish by your employer. The point is that YOU are the person being paid directly by the student, and no cunt makes hundreds or thousands of $s per hour out of you. The money goes into your pocket as your fair and legal reward for taking control of, and responsibility for, your own life.

I’ve always lived by this principle until I came here. The last 12 months have been hell because of the ‘serf’-owner relationship mentioned by a few people here, and because I hate to see some tosser lose a lucrative contract for making mistakes that I see, warn against, and am castigated for mentioning. There are plenty of people here slamming their employers, or the industry in general, and in my book the only real solution is to do the job better than them.

In all likelihood a few laws may get bent, but that happens everywhere in the world. Laws are not enforced to the letter at all times anywhere in the world. They may be passed for or by special interest groups but the people enforcing them are human beings like the rest of us, and usually tend to take a pragmatic view of what is reasonable.

The point is to be able to go through life without giving anyone any good reason to prosecute you. All you have to do is show reasonable respect for local standards and not blatantly do anything that forces them to act.

Finally, on a slightly different tack: Germany used to have laws requiring Jews to be clearly identified - and eventually shipped off to special holiday camps. Me, I don’t follow laws that I don’t agree with. Resistance to the law may lead to a premature death. It may also lead to a change in the law or the situation - Witness Magna Carta, the Peasants Revolt, US Independence, the Tolpuddle Martyrs, the suffragette movement, Ghandi, Martin Luther King and the civil rights movement, the UKs poll tax rebellion, and of course the great Kazaa.

In a democracy, which Taiwan claims to have become, every individual has a responsibility to evaluate the laws under which they live. Civil disobedience, publicly or privately, is one way in which politicians are kept (or made) that little bit less dishonest and societies evolve. Blind obedience to the law is an insult to your humanity.

 I offered this as an option to tmwc, because he can always go legit. He also seemed like a good guy and therefore "worthy" in my eyes of being offered this option. He could do this till he felt comfortable committing to one school.

 It doesn't change the fact that it is illegal. I stopped posting this info openly when I realised I was helping "ed grimley" types and this could be detrimental to my long term plans in Taiwan.
 Thanks for not ratting on me :P  It's a shame that it makes me unemployable with your group in your eyes. I actually try to be an effective teacher. As far as being illegal, I've noticed this info being rarer and rarer on the discussion boards. Tealit won't post it anymore-all posts are vetted before being put up on the board, forumosans generally won't answer and daveseslcafe is a luck of the draw. I think as the economy worsens, there will be a hunt for illegals. I'm not waiting for the if, but the when that this starts to happen. Some illegal teacher will do something stupid or the presidential elections will come around and all of a sudden. It will be very hard to be an illegal(mojado). I'm planning on this. I'm preparing for the eventuality and taking the necessary steps to weather any such crisis. 

CYA
Okami

 I don't see this as anything but your personal feelings on the subject. I don't hold it against you nor think less of you for it. At forumosa, we can agree to disagree, like civilized people. Some people will read what you wrote and agree wholeheartedly, others won't.

law=regulation?
regulation=law?

From a precise legal perspective, all regulations are laws but not all laws are regulations.

Laws can be created by God if one believes in that (“thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife”), by Congress in the US or the Legislative Yuan in Taiwan (“though shalt not infringe on thy neighbor’s copyright”), by administrative agencies or by judges.

Regulations usually refers to laws passed by administrative agencies, which are generally more specific and are intended to fill out the broad intentions of the laws from Congress/Legislative Yuan. Typically, Congress/LY may pass a law that states that a certain agency will be created and the agency will create regulations governing a particular issue. The agency is then supposed to follow those instructions from above.

But people sometimes use the term regulations loosely just to mean laws, regardless of whether they are administrative regulations.

[quote=“Mother Theresa”]Plenty of laws are begging to be broken – laws against “consensual crimes” such as gambling, prostitution, use of drugs, seatbelts, jaywalking, laws against sodomy, adultery and even oral sex in some places. If you don’t believe in breaking those laws, BH, fine, don’t. But don’t tell me I can’t.

Peter McWilliams wrote a great book on the subject, and there’s a great website that contains I think the entire book at the following link:

mcwilliams.com/books/aint/toc.htm

Or you can buy it from Amazon.com.[/quote]

You can break the law if you want, but the simple fact is that it doesn’t make it correct. Ok, in YOUR country you get to vote and protest about these unjust laws but in Taiwan, you made the choice to come here and these specific ARC laws / regulations don’t violate basic human rights.

Ok, you can pick and choose what you wish to follow, it doesn’t make it right, it could make you wrong though. If we all were allowed to pick and choose what we wanted to do the world would be plunged into complete chaos. No, Okami is not plunging the world into chaos, but your logic is flawed. Freedom of choice - great. I’m not hurting anyone - great. But does that make it right. You can justify any action if you try hard enough and we live in an instant selfish generation that is very good at making things all fall into that grey area.

[quote=“Miltownkid”]I got into with tigerman once already, so I’ll keep it brief.

[quote=“Boss Hogg”]
It is not for you to pick and choose which laws you wish to follow. [/quote]

[quote=“Miltownkid”]WRONG!

Everyone gets to live excatly how they wish. One DOES get to choose the laws they wish to follow. Wether it’s morally “right” or “wrong” is another discussion (which I’m guessing will need a new topic).[/quote][/quote]

Ok, you choose the laws that you wish to follow - CORRECT - And then you answer to consequences - Maybe. I still stand by the fact that you don’t have the RIGHT to do so. Americans have this whole spastic concept from their bill of rights (is that right?) and the constitution which gives freedom of speech etc. But does that give you the RIGHT to go against what has been decided as being permissable? I think not. Sure, somethings are unfair, that’s what appeals are for in America, isn’t it. But the whole concept of selfishly living out your life as some law unto yourself - WRONG.

You can choose not to break the laws, but does that make you correct? Weren’t Saddam Hussein’s two sons just executed for carrying out the laws in their country? What laws existed in Nazi Germany? Is it always “wrong” to violate a law? Was Rosa Parks wrong to sit at the front of the bus? Choosing to violate a visa law may not seem the same, but laws are made by men (and women), not by God. If one violates man’s laws one may be held legally accountable. But other than that, what makes it “wrong” to violate a law?

Isn’t it sad that our generations sense of moral integrity has fallen by the wayside. Laws are not always fair and if they go against basic human rights I also would not wish to follow them. But that is not what we are talking about is it, what we are talking about is “Is it right (morally, legally, ethically) to violate the work permit laws and regulations that surround the ARC system in Taiwan?”. Let’s confine it to this issue and not to this half-assed, wishy washy, “let me be free man”, mentality that prevails in the world today. Let’s not confine it to the “back packer teachers” or the Okami types, let’s make it a “in general” discussion.

Oh yeah, it may be a good idea to split this off from the rest of this thread as I suspect that none of this is helping tmwc. Here’s the thread to do it in forumosa.com/3/viewtopic.php?p=88596#88596

p.s. I don’t advocate blind obedience to the law, I hope you get that from my posts above. But since this law doesn’t step all over our human rights and we made the decision to come here, no one held a gun to our heads, shouldn’t we do things the way that is said to be correct here (correct or not)?

[quote]When is it reasonable to disobey the law

      When  the law is made by made without  democratic  authority,
      when  the law is  not equally  applied,  when the  law  takes
      away a man's living,   when the law disadvantages one man but
      not  another,  when  the law amounts to  treason.   When,  in
      short,  the law is incompatible with a  free,  self-governing 
      society.[/quote]  

Another thread OK. forumosa.com/3/viewtopic.php?p=88596#88596

If a law was passed tomorrow requiring each family to kill its first born son, how many of you would feel it would be “wrong” to disobey that law ?

When a law no longer serves the people it becomes a stupid law. Therefore a law asking you to kill your first born is a stupid law and is asking to be broken.

May I ask what the point is for prohibiting private tutoring, requiring permission from the current employer to change jobs, and all the other ARC-linked regulations?

May I ask what the point is for prohibiting private tutoring, requiring permission from the current employer to change jobs, and all the other ARC-linked regulations?[/quote]

Ok, not like I agree with the law but here goes.

Prohibiting private tutoring. I guess this is to protect the employer from teachers who work the minimum number of hours and then run around all night wearing themselves out teaching private students. Many companies want their workers main job to be the main job. Let’s say I work for XXXX Law firm but I am doing some work on the side for OOOO Law firm, would my employer be outraged if he found out, I think so.

Many times in the past I have refered to my private classes, but actually come to think of it, none of them were private classes because they were all organised by the language school and the monies were paid into my monthly salary.

Needing permission to change jobs possibly comes from this ridiculous concept that your employer is responsible for you while you are in Taiwan. Your medical insurance is put through their company and they are sponsoring your residence afterall. This is something that I don’t agree with, I think that we should be able to own our own permits.

Stupid as the regulations are they are not going to kill you :wink:

[quote]
Stupid as the regulations are they are not going to kill you[/quote]

Maybe not, but they can make life bloody difficult. To what end? The laws at the moment are ridiculous, absurd, a pain in the arse, and the fact that they are so widely evaded by Taiwanese employers testifies to their pointlessness.

Abiding by the employment/immigration laws does not contibute to the greater social good. Abiding by the laws does not prevent all sorts of wankers getting well-paid, legal, jobs. Abiding by the laws does not prevent employees being abused.

Abiding by the laws reduces the opportunities for you to get into trouble. That’s all. I choose to keep my nose clean, but until the law ceases to be ‘an ass’ I’m not going to be getting all high and mighty about social responsibility.

Note: Taiwan law`is allegedly based on something they borrowed from Germany. The guiding principle seems to be that nothing is allowed unless there is a specific law permitting it. Enforcement is largely up to the judgement of the official/cop on duty at the time - who has a lot of discretion. I spent three years in Berlin, and never had to deal with the crap I do here.

On the other hand, I come from a country - as does BH - where everything is allowed until some fool legislates against it. Then the rules are more hard and fast, and getting around them is a lot harder.

Are there similar laws preventing Taiwanese from having more than one job? Coming in to work exhausted because you’re trying to do too much is fair grounds for termination, whoever you might be. Why have extra laws for foreigners?

Personally I’m pretty sure I can do my 14 hrs/wk that I’m currently contracted to do and not be exhausted by a little outside work.

The laws seem to be all about control, not about ensuring a fair and equitable relationship. That’s why I want out. Take away the emphasis on control, take away the job security too, and a lot less foreign teachers will be kicking against the system.

As of May 13, 2003, any foreigner married to a local Taiwan citizen with residency based on the marriage has free work rights in the Taiwan area . . . . . . . . . don’t forget this small technicality. This took nine years of lobbying to achieve !!!

I dunno. The stories I’ve been reading here and on Tea**it have been more about teachers complaining that their schools aren’t giving them enough hours – “I was promised 20 hours a week, and am only getting paid for four, and they won’t sign a release letter or let me work at another school, what do I do?”

Oh yeah? Well, what if . . . :smiley: