Tired of living in this s***hole

Many Europeans countries have strange laws on inheritance. For example, in Italy, you legally have to leave all of your children something if there is something to be past down. So if you only have a house, all your children will have to get a piece.

When I was in Croatia, I asked why so much of the land is not being used. They also have something similar and they split the land up so it ends up no one ends up using the land because it’s split up in a way 1 section is useless without all the other. And it’s been so long that people don’t even know who owns some of it so it just sits there.

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The enlightenment period was still heavily influenced by Christianity from its philosophy to politics to social structures of what is man. The humanist movement was heavily influenced by the Christian idea that man was created by god and therefore have dignity.

Separation between church and state just separated the church but did not separate Christian ideas all that much. Although atheism began at this period, Deism was far more prevalent.

The church does not equal Christianity anymore. That was a major impact of the Protestant movement, which I would tie back into the invention of the printing press again. Now that the Bible was more accessible to the common man, the church no longer was the only way to god for much of Europe.

So to me, the Protestant movement was a major table setter for the enlightenment period and scientific revolution.

If it weren’t for Christianity what would have inspired all that art?

Modern art is garbage.

None of that proves causation and ignores that major steps in innovation in the areas of art, science, music were all a rejection of the traditional values of the Christian church - protestant, Anglican, catholic etc. They progressed as they moved away from Christianity not towards it.

Likewise, I would not argue that Greek mythology was the main reason for advances in art and government on behalf of the Greeks.

The Arab world was far more advanced than Europe for centuries. Religion served to unite the Arab world, but I wouldn’t say it’s what drove advances in math and technology.

For much of history, China and India were the most advanced societies on Earth until relatively recently. That doesn’t make Hinduism, Jainism or Daoism/Confucianism somehow conducive to technological advancements more so than other religions.

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Whatever other religion there was :man_shrugging:

They were just copying the Greeks and changing the characters from Zeus to the Christian God, or Hera to the Mother Mary.

Is there any scholar of intellectual history who believes this is the case?

Plato did not believe matter was knowable.

Catholics believed the universe was rational. You can’t do science if you believed the universe is meaningless gibberish.

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Have you been to Budapest?

The old city has lots of beautiful architecture, the influences come from Romans and the Ottoman Empire, which was predominantly Muslim-faithed. So it’s quite a mix.

Additionally, in Spain there was a big Muslim influence in some of the castles. I forget the name of the group of people now. Europe has never been a predominant faith continent.

Yeah OK. I’m sure the Last supper was too, or something.

Heidelberg Schloss in Frankfurt also had a pseudo-Mosque because “oriental” architecture was vogue at the time.

Don’t even need to squint. I’ve met many wealthy families here. One of the families that owned all that land at Tucheng where the new court and prison were built. Well more than one actually. But some were cousins so not sure if they really count. Most of them worked in real estate. But there was at least one lawyer. Others include a family that own a whole stack of 7/11s. Another family that own prime real estate on a very busy road. And the guy a few doors up from them owns even more. His job is making keys and selling locks. But he owns half a block of 4 or 5 story house on the main road. Another one that owns farms throughout Taiwan yet pokes around in a little fruit and veg shop. Another family that own large chunks of real estate in a very famous tourist district. I taught all 3 of their kids.


It’s complex. Christianity held back innovation in some areas and periods while the opposite in others. I’m not measuring based on this alone but as a whole. Influence could be good or bad which you’ve made a case for. Even holding things back means it was that influential so I actually think you’re making my point.

Think about it like this. Martin Luther set the stage for the Protestant reformation that took down the most significant power at the time. The Catholic Church. That was no easy feat. 400 years later his works were being used by Nazi protagonist for antisemitic ideas.

Protestant movement also coincided with the rise of capitalism for example. There are some economic writings on the subject and some interesting stats showed Protestants became wealthier than Catholics. I’m not saying it’s the only causation. But it’s really hard to say Christianity was not at least one of the most influential ideas that shaped Europe.

Of course. Do you know anything about the Enlightenment? It doesn’t sound like it when you say things like this:


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Anybody pretty much. The Enlightenment was in large part a rejection of religious doctrine in favor of objectivity.

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You can’t name one scholar?

Influence doesn’t have to be good or bad. It can be both. For example the Greeks probably didn’t look too deeply into what causes lightning causing the culture to not progress in this area of science, but they did build some of the greatest architectural structures of their time to honor their gods. I’m sure that pushed innovation in that area.

It’s just common knowledge. Try reading a book about the Enlightenment!

We read a lot of the works of Enlightenment philosophers and writers in school. Off the top of my head, all of the major ones like Kant, Descartes, Locke were Christian. While they rejected the dogma and doctrines of the past, they were still heavily influenced by Christianity.

Instead of following religious institutions, they found a rational god and focused on being rational. And man had dignity because they believed such.

Sure, but as I said above, if you weren’t (or at least make a good show) you wouldn’t get very far, if you survived.

Everyone was influenced by Christianity as the dominant religion, of course. It’s even possible to argue that the Enlightenment would not have happened without Christianity, but I don’t see how anyone could argue that it was not a rejection of doctrinal thinking in favor of objectivity.

that I’d want to see a source for :slight_smile: