TIWA Meeting Summary & National Migrants Rally 2009 (12/13)

Taiwan Living in Taiwan
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What are you willing to do to protect your rights in Taiwan?

  • Take part in demonstrations or protests.
  • Join and support a foreign teachers labor union.
  • Pay money or subscribe to labor organizations such as TIWA to work on specific issues.
  • Nothing, I don’t want to protect my rights.
  • Other (please leave comments).

0 voters

TIWA Meeting Summary

Sadly only about 20 people showed up for the meeting, plus 3 TIWA staff, 3 NIA representatives, and 2 CLA representatives. Maoman, myself, a few other Forumosans, some Hess main office folk, and other foreigners were present to make our case.

We spent about 3 hours at the meeting discussing various issues with few if any solid answers to our questions, and mostly being stonewalled by the CLA and NIA representatives. At the end of the meeting, Maoman asked for name cards and was told - by every representative present - that they had conveniently forgotten their name cards (and apparently their names, too).

Unfortunately, we didn’t learn anything we didn’t already know, but I’ll summarize here the main points I took down as notes:

  • Work permits are as we understand them currently. 14 hours minimum for ARC sponsorship, 6 hours minimum for part-time work up to 32 hours total maximum.

  • Two companies, two permits. Two locations for the same company, still 2 permits. As we know already.

  • There are 2 originals (真本) issued of a work permit, 1 for the school and 1 for the employee. Both are mailed to the place of work, and there is no notice to the employer that one must be issued to the employee. You will need your work permit if you intend to apply for a second work permit, and you can write a letter to the CLA to request a copy of your work permit (and contract) - they will issue it to you directly, according to the representative present.

  • Maoman had a good point here, that the CLA should simply issue the original to the employee directly, together with a copy of the labor regulations.

  • Good news for HESS or other chain school employees with too few hours: the clauses in HESS’s handbooks stating that you can’t take other work without approval are illegal, and you are under no obligation to tell your first company that you want to work for a second company, but another job again must be 14 hours to be added to your ARC as a resident sponsor.

  • APRC regulations are essentially chaos, and the representatives from the NIA could offer no solid or clear understanding of what the requirements are for an APRC. They stated that “continuous residence” means back-to-back ARCs with no gap at all for 5 years, and had no comments as far as the “183 day” stipulations in the law. They also stated that someone who worked 3 years, then married for 2 years, would not be granted an APRC since the residence was not “continuous”.

  • If your employer wants to cancel your contract before it ends (fire you), they are in theory required to obtain a signature of acceptance from the employee. If you are involved in a labor dispute, the CLA has assured us that they will put a stay on our work permit so that our ARC will not be cancelled, and we will be allowed to stay for the time necessary to dispute the case. During this time, we can find a new job but the first employer can tell the CLA that you should not be given a work permit for any reason, which the CLA claims they would investigate before deciding whether or not to issue a work permit.

  • We also learned that every Buxiban teacher in Taiwan is entitled to 14 days of unpaid “personal leave” per year, and 30 days of sick leave which is paid at half the normal rate of pay, unless it is for a work-related injury in which case it is full pay - evidence would be necessary in the case of sick leave. In the second year at the same company, you are entitled to 7 further days of paid leave. A school cannot make you find substitutes, etc.

The most worthwhile aspects of the meeting were showing some faces to these departments, and meeting Mrs. Wu Jing Ru, who runs the TIWA. The organization’s staff seemed extremely understanding of our position, and told the representatives many times throughout the discussion what the differences were between the laws and the cases that TIWA sees every day. She told us the series of steps that we are going to need to take as a group to affect change. Until recently, foreigners working in Taiwan were not allowed to demonstrate or protest against the government but TIWA fought the government and made them give us those rights. In short, to affect change, we will need to exercise them.

We need to organize press conferences, demonstrations/protests, and in my opinion a labor union (which we are also allowed to do but to my knowledge, to date, have not). According to Jing Ru, the only way the bureaucrats will listen to anything is if it makes a big stink in the media, and other than that no one will budge.

I think it wouldn’t be a bad idea for us to hold a little informal meet & greet to get a better idea of how many people are interested in being proactive in the community, and a great time to do that would be next Sunday (12/13) at Taipei Main Station, South gate 2 at 12:30pm, at the MENT (Migrants Empowerment Network in Taiwan) semi-annual National Migrants Rally.

There are some 360,000 migrant workers in Taiwan, and the main focus on this year’s rally is to promote the rights stipulated in the UN’s Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1948) that all migrant workers need at least 1 day off per week - you may or may not know, but the vast majority of the Indonesian, Filipino, Thai, and Vietnamese caregivers you see walking around with elderly Taiwanese in wheelchairs are expected to work 7 days a week, 365 days a year in most cases, seldom given permission by their bosses to leave the house for any reason.

We have it good compared to these workers, but we’re all foreigners here and we need to support each other if we hope to accomplish anything. So come next Sunday and meet with us, meet the people from the dozen or so organizations supporting this rally, and let’s talk about what we need to do to secure our rights!

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Thank you for the feedback.

I am wondering if the personal and sick leave rules are the same for salaried and hourly paid teachers. When I was employed by a school that paid me a monthly salary 6 years ago, we were paid for sick days, as well as getting paid leave days every year. For the past 5 years however, I have been at a school where we are paid per hour. The standard rule is, “no work, no pay”. So, no paid sick leave, no paid annual leave, no paid typhoon days.

I was expecting as much. The local office couldn’t tell me any do’s and don’ts as far as work is concerned. I think when the resident period was reduced from 7 to 5 years, a lot more people applied for APRCs than before. The NIA has been caught with its pants down, especially in the smaller cities. My friend from Miaoli was met with blank stares when she went to apply for her APRC recently.

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[quote=“A-ha”]Thank you for the feedback.

I am wondering if the personal and sick leave rules are the same for salaried and hourly paid teachers. When I was employed by a school that paid me a monthly salary 6 years ago, we were paid for sick days, as well as getting paid leave days every year. For the past 5 years however, I have been at a school where we are paid per hour. The standard rule is, “no work, no pay”. So, no paid sick leave, no paid annual leave, no paid typhoon days.
[/quote]

Yes, we did bring up a few issues to thoroughly clarify this issue and the example was that if you regularly work say 2 hours monday, but 4 hours friday, taking a sick day on monday you should get 1 hour, and a sick day on friday 2 hours. 7 days paid leave would be calculated the same.

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greves, Thanks for posting about this. It was good meeting you and your brother today (But I have to confess, I don’t know which one of you I’m addressing right now! :blush: )

It was a good meeting, in the sense that my feeling that the gov’t doesn’t give a shit about foreigners has been confirmed. The antagonistic, condescending attitude of “Jennifer” Peng of the CLA was really quite unbelievable. The dude from the National Immigration Agency was passive to the point of being useless.

None of the official reps were interested in being there, only one of them had any command of English at all, despite the fact that they knew who they were meeting today, and the one who did speak some English, “Jennifer”, was so deaf to anyone’s message but her own that she was useless as well as insulting.

They all declined to leave name cards, or furnish us with their real names.

With regards to labour law, the only useful thing I found out was this: If you don’t have a JVRV or a PARC already, and you have a labour dispute with your boss, you’re basically screwed. If your boss is legally obligated to do X and doesn’t, you can only “discuss” it with him. He should do the right thing, but essentially there is nothing in place to prevent him from screwing you silly.

Case in point: If you have a garden variety ARC, then you are entitled to a minimum of 14 hours a week. If your boss gives you 12 hours a week, then you are entitled to another 2 hours of pay. I asked what happens if the boss disagrees. The answer: He “should” give you the money.
My reply: “Should” or “must”?
Their answer: You can discuss it with him. Maybe you can compromise.
Me: But if you’re entitled, you’re entitled - why compromise to what you’re entitled?
Them: Um. (embarrassed shrug, and a glance at the wristwatch)

As far as the poll goes, I’ll tell you what I think. I think it’s a lost cause to approach legislators to change legislation. We don’t vote, and I really believe that they don’t give a rat’s ass about us.

That doesn’t mean I’m in favour of foreigners taking it up the rear without a squeal of displeasure. I’d like it if people documented their cases of injustice on the web, especially with proper names. I’m happy to use whatever “clout” Forumosa has to get their attention, so I don’t mind showing up at meetings now and then, especially if they involve real decision-makers, and not the do-nothing, sullen, resentful, incompetent lackeys they sent us today.

I was glad I showed up today, though. The foreigners I met today were an eloquent bunch, and I was proud to sit amongst them. A big thank you also to Ms. Wu Jingru of the TIWA, who facilitated the meeting. She is a class act, and it’s people like her that make me think there is still some hope for this island. :bravo:

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Thanks to you too for helping out with translations and getting some good questions in. I would be the one sitting one chair closer to your side.

[quote]As far as the poll goes, I’ll tell you what I think. I think it’s a lost cause to approach legislators to change legislation. We don’t vote, and I really believe that they don’t give a rat’s ass about us.

That doesn’t mean I’m in favour of foreigners taking it up the rear without a squeal of displeasure. I’d like it if people documented their cases of injustice on the web, especially with proper names. I’m happy to use whatever “clout” Forumosa has to get their attention, so I don’t mind showing up at meetings now and then, especially if they involve real decision-makers, and not the do-nothing, sullen, resentful, incompetent lackeys they sent us today.[/quote]

Well, I hope not too many people feel this way and I do think a labor union can work in our favor. Labor unions don’t petition the government to change rules, they are basically there to negotiate contracts between employers and employees, and can manage our relationships collectively better than we would be able to on our own - I don’t think starting a labor union would be a waste at all if enough teachers joined. Can you imagine how much face Buxibans would lose if the union organized a strike? Just as an example.

As far as documenting cases online, I think it’s a great idea and Forumosa is a great venue for this where anyone with a dispute can basically post the nitty gritty details of it with names, schools, and companies. Not just teachers, but anyone falling into our category of Class A workers. As far as I can tell these stories are currently all spread around the forum in the various “Legal” categories, and I don’t know how many are resolved, up-to-date, ongoing, etc, or how one would go about collecting all of this information and putting it together coherently.

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[quote=“Maoman”]greves, The antagonistic, condescending attitude of “Jennifer” Peng of the CLA was really quite unbelievable. The dude from the National Immigration Agency was passive to the point of being useless.

None of the official reps were interested in being there, only one of them had any command of English at all, despite the fact that they knew who they were meeting today, and the one who did speak some English, “Jennifer”, was so deaf to anyone’s message but her own that she was useless as well as insulting.

[color=#FF0000]They all declined to leave name cards, or furnish us with their real names.[/color]
[/quote]
That is just unbelievable! :fume: …or maybe not. :unamused:

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:roflmao: I’d give my left nut to see that enforced. It’s good to see that Maoman has finally accepted what most of us already know…

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I was at the meeting, and I personally found “Jennifer” to be unbelievably rude and disrepectful. If this is the kind of person we are supposed to go to for help, we are screwed. I felt her attitude clearly showed that she has no respect for foreign workers at all. In my opinion, she should be removed from her position as she clearly does not enjoy it. Could we petition for this?

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Greves and Maoman,
Thanks a lot for your efforts at the meeting and for giving us such a detailed write-up. Painful reading but so ridiculous that I got a few laughs; it’s either laugh or cry, isn’t it?

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I’m sure they could not care less, but I’m a qualified teacher with over a decade’s experience. Nothing could induce me to work in Taiwan. I love the place and miss the country very much, but as a non JFRC / APRC holder, the working conditions are far, far inferior to pretty much anywhere else with a comparable economy in Asia. When I head back to Asia, in the next 2-3 years, Taiwan won’t be on my list for anything other than weekend breaks to see friends.

I’m NOT alone in this one. There has been a stampede of ESL people out of Taiwan in the past five years or so, mostly to China or the Middle east. If Taiwan genuinely wants to attract the international crowd of ESL workers, it is going to have offer some some kinds of incentives. Financially, career-wise, and socially in terms of job security and residence status, Taiwan is a disaster for a teacher.

By being so obstructive to genuine job seekers, they are pushing the ESL market down further and further downwards. Again, I’m sure the majority of those involved could not care less about that.

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Taiwan has no interest in attracting an “international crowd of ESL workers.” It’s pretty happy with the ones it has and there does not seem to be any shortage of people who want to come and teach.

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:laughing: Of course. My point exactly; no-one comes here other than kids and guys who are married. Of course, we only want rich foreigners who spend tons of cash in Taiwan, but it all goes hand in hand. If Taiwan can not provide anything to expats, such as basic control of their own residence status and employment, etc, etc, etc, why would anyone bother, other than gap year kids and people who have family in Taiwan.

Taiwan:
ielts.org/researchers/analys … _data.aspx

Taiwan’s poor level of English also affects how competitive Taiwan is in the global economy. A stupid, insular policy towards these things damages Taiwan. The place has gone backwards in the last few years.

And for those gap year kids who do stay there for a year or two before going back home to grad school and their future lives, convincing them that the Taiwanese society is hostile towards outsiders, a low end market, not to be trusted in business, and not somewhere to return to, has certain consequences, wouldn’t you say?

The person in charge at my company taught English in Taiwan and loathes the place.

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These were the jokers in question. For a description of who’s who, click on the pic.

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I’m sorry I didn’t hear about this before or I would have attended. Is there an email list or Facebook group I can join so that I can participate?

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I wonder if the next meeting would be the place to ask this question. Why can somebody come to Taiwan and teach kids without a criminal record check, but we then need one for a JFRV? Surely there should be checks for both.

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Maybe some (or all) of you that went to the meeting can start to write some letters to their departments and to the local papers. :ponder:

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funk, what was made very clear to us was that they are not interested in changing anything. They’re not interested in defending anything. They weren’t even very interested in explaining anything. When contradictions in laws and regulations came up, the standard response was no response. I mean, they’d sit there and look blankly at you. No trying to clarify the question, no asking for more details, just a blank look. Sometimes the guy with glasses would leaf through his book and repeat the contradictory article without addressing the question we had about it.

Here’s one example: We heard, all of us for the first time, about a different level of work visa - an Article 51-2 visa which according to them can be gotten after 5 years of continuous residency on the same ARC to the same employer. This new visa would allow an individual to work for any employer as long as he remained in the same industry that he had had the ARC for five years for.

We pointed out that 5 years of continuous residency would also allow a foreigner to apply for a PARC (Permanent Alien Resident Certificate), which would give them completely open work rights with no limitations at all. What then, was the benefit of this other semi-open work permit? And why was it that none of us, from so many different countries and with so many years in Taiwan had never heard of it? Their answer: Um.

I think I’d go to a similar meeting again in the future, just for the entertainment value. It wouldn’t take any longer than watching 2012 at the theater, and the thrill of watching a disaster unfold is kind of compelling.

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The painful realization I’ve come to is that you just have to embarrass them. You need to present a choice where doing what you want is less painful and less work than not doing it because at the end of the day they know they get paid whether they do the job or not.

Did anyone videotape the meeting?

I’ll be on this page sometime after CNY.

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To be fair, this is a fairly specialized area of Taiwan’s labor and immigration regime. The civil servants sent to meet with you may not be experts on the subject.

I’m sure they not interested in any changes. Changes in public policy that become changes in the law happen at a much higher level or in the legislature.

Who sponsored this meeting? How did it come to be?

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Any recourse possible? Avenue of complaint? You have at least one of their names, albeit a “fake” one.
Not that it will get you anywhere – by your description those morons behaved perfectly and are on the fast-track in what passes for the “civil service” here.
I suggest getting Vanessa to severely bruise your buttocks, photographing the bruising, sending it to Apple Daily and claiming that it was Jennifer Peng what done it to you for your being disharmonious.