[quote=“joesax”]I am saying that giving people the finger is not the same as shouting through a window. That it seems to provoke a more aggressive response.
[/quote]
I got a far more aggresive response when I run after the car that allmoust hit me just to yell to him trough the window what a ass he was than my finger ever has, but then I was in the mood off killing some SAS or Navy Seals at that time. :fume:
[quote=“Stian”][quote=“joesax”]I am saying that giving people the finger is not the same as shouting through a window. That it seems to provoke a more aggressive response.
[/quote]
I got a far more aggresive response when I run after the car that allmoust hit me just to yell to him trough the window what a ass he was than my finger ever has, but then I was in the mood off killing some SAS or Navy Seals at that time. :fume:[/quote]
PUT
DOWN
THE
CRACK
PIPENo, you did the right thing of moving on. I’m the same way. I always think what I should have done in the situation, how I could have fought or something to say. I am not a fighter (never was) and thinking about getting arrested and deported keeps me from ever thinking about hitting someone, unless they threaten me first.
I get the same way as you do. Driving here makes me nuts, having to watch 360 degrees around you, watching out for stupid people.
Last night I almost got hit by a lady backing up. Had my girlfriend not said something to me to move, it would have happen.
Ha ha, now it’s my turn.
Sunday morning I rode my bike up FengKweiKuo, an extremely popular road for bicycles. On a typical Sunday morning about 7 or 8 am you might see 20 or 30 bikes there, at least. In other words, it should be abundantly clear to any idiot that cars should drive carefully, as they will definitely encounter many cyclists.
So, just as I come to the top of the hill, I see this shiny black BMW Z4 convertible getting into position, then squealing out turning a high speed donut right in the middle of the round surrounded by over a dozen cyclists. Since he completed his circle right directly in front of me, facing right at me, just 5 yards from me as I rode to the top, I raised my finger in a proud salute and told him, “Fuck you.”
As I continued calmly riding right past the side of his car towards the regular spot where I go to lean my bike against the fence and do a little stretching before the descent, he rose up in the seat of his car, with a “HUH, HUH, You talking to me?” look on his face and replied “Fock you.”
“Fuck you, you’re an asshole,” I told him, “Fucking asshole, fuck you. . . and your car’s a piece of shit, too. Nide cheze bien bien,” as I continued calmly walking my bike to my regular spot.
“FOCK YOU. FOCK YOU. FOCK YOU,” he yelled back at me, clearly extremely enraged, jerking his middle finger in the air repeatedly before changing his strategy. “Lai zeli,” he shouted, gesturing for me to come to his car.
“Fuck you,” I replied, leaning my bike against the fence and starting my regular stretching routine.
After a few more "FOCK YOU"s and angry gesturing, my friend squealed out of there and all was calm for about a minute, before his car appeared again and he parked it as shown below (the first time it was in the same spot but facing the opposite direction).
He stepped out of his car, laced his fingers together, extended his arms, cracking his knuckles, and then did a few Karate Kid kung fu katas and leaping kicks.
“Haiyaaaa,” I called out from where I was sitting on the ground stretching.
He was seriously pissed at my audacity and strode right to me. I didn’t get up. He stood a few feet from me cussing and shouting at me so excitedly that the spit was flying from his lips. He was clearly jesturing for me to stand up and fight him. I continued sitting without moving an inch.
“Bu yao,” I told him, “Bu yao gun ni wan” (I don’t want to play with you).
He kept shouting, gesturing, doing kung fu moves; I kept telling him “bu yao gun ni wan”; he walked towards my bike and started gesturing that he would throw it over the fence or that I should throw it over the fence. I stood up. He came closer, got inches from my face, cussing, yelling, jumping about in an extremely agitated state, the spittle flying from his lips. I didn’t flinch at all.
Meanwhile over two dozen cyclists and hikers remained where they had been in a circle around us, watching quietly without daring to say a word. They all appeared to be terrified and I’m sure if the guy had attacked me physically none of them would have dared to intervene.
Anyway, he kept yelling, cussing, kung fuing, gesturing for me to “come on, come on, let’s get it on,” gesturing for me to throw my bike over the edge, but I didn’t back up one inch; nor did I touch him. Instead, I just kept telling him “bu yao gun ni wan” and “bu dong.”
After a while I realized he had no intention of leaving and I was going to have to ride my bike down the hill with this raving lunatic in a car, I began telling him, “dui bu chi. . . bu hao isi. . . mei guanxi,” and extended a hand to shake, but he sneered at my hand, and only kept jumping about cussing.
Finally, he walked down to road and approached a group of cyclists and appeared to say something like, “What’re you looking at? You think it’s funny? You want a piece of me? I didn’t think so. Fucking wienies. Scared fucking wienies.” He then walked to another group of cyclists and did the same. I took the above photo. I also walked up to his car and took this photo in case he ran me off the road (that’s him beside his car).
He came back and cussed some more at me, but . . .
Finally, SHIT, it was time for me to ride back down the hill and take my chances that he wouldn’t kill me with his car. It seemed certain he would do something, so I initially looked for bushes where I could pull over and hide so he would drive down past me. He didn’t pass me, so eventually I decided to ride fast down the hill because it’s steep and curvy and I figured I could go faster down it than him, so that’s what I did and I never saw him again.
Anyway, it was a strange and exciting bike ride, but I’m proud of how I handled it. I’m glad I told him he’s a dick, because he is and he endangered many people’s lives up there. And I’m glad I didn’t fight him. I’m confident I could’ve kicked his ass, but I know that even if one “wins” a fight there’s still the strong possibility that one might get a bloody knee or sprained back or injured hand or torn clothing and that con outweighs any pro of kicking his butt I believe. I had a great morning, why would I want to risk getting injured. Besides, I think the fact that i didn’t budge, didn’t flinch one bit, and he ranted and raved like a lunatic for 15 minutes with no effect just made him come out a pathetic, impotent, little man. All that anger and nothing came of it, while I just calmy faced his threats. Ha. I expect he must have felt seriously humiliated after that and in front of two dozen witnesses. Ha ha.
Of course, I didn’t mention this to my wife. Had I fought him she would’ve known and would’ve given me hell over it. But I didn’t. I humiliated the fucker, came out the victor, and went home to take a shower, eat breakfast and savor the odd incident. 
You did well. ONly gay wannabe Taiweener gangsters drive a ragtop BMW and bother cyclists. REal gangsters have better things to do.
I am pretty certain I wouldnt have remained calm though
Well done, MT. Unfortunately, I don’t have that temperament. I would have annihilated the sap. One of the main reasons that I don’t drive/ride a vehicle in Taiwan, or go to clubs/pubs. I refuse to put myself in a potential situation where things could get ugly.
These situations are kind of funny. It’s obvious that you should never let some idiot you don’t know drag you away from going about your day and into some silly conflict. People do stupid things all the time and you avoid them the best you can and go about your business. The problem comes when someone makes you angry because they did something stupid and you believe they deserve to be punished. Best leave punishment to the gods and concentrate on affecting only things that are currently affecting you.
What is funny to me is when someone gets really angry about some incident and they really think the instigating asshole deserves to be punished. Essentially they were angry enough to fight. They wanted to fight, but they didn’t because they were scared. Then they wonder if they should have fought or not. No, of course you shouldn’t have fought someone in the street over something stupid. You just don’t want to let it go because you were angry enough to fight but were too scared to do anything about it. Why make such a big deal about getting punked out. In my experience, tough guys punk out easy and go about their day.
Actually, truth be told, it was my birthday – my 50th birthday. 
So I felt especially proud. Proud that I told him he was a prick, stood up to him without flinching, but especially proud that I finally learned some lessons after all these years. I’ve gotten in plenty of fights when I was younger. I know the adrenaline rush one gets from the conflict and the head rush one gets from “Yea, I kicked his fucking ass.” But as I said above, I also know that even if you win there’s a good possibility you or your clothing won’t come away unscathed. I was out having a great bike ride – why would I want to come home with a bloody knee or elbow or aching hand or ripped clothing? At this point the risk of those minor but irritating injuries, plus the long-term wrath of my wife that I would’ve certainly faced, would’ve outweighed the thrill of kicking his ass. Plus, I honestly feel I kicked his ass at least as well in my soft manner – by completely, thoroughly humiliating him up there, standing up to him, telling him he’s a prick, letting him rant and rave, but in the end all his rants amounted to nothing and everyone saw that. He he. As I said, it was a great way to start the day. Also a great way to start the new year, older but a little wiser.
I guess I will post this since it is somewhat relevant to the topic at hand. My latest blog entry…
When to fight
I often hear people say that fighting should only be used as a last resort or that they want to learn martial arts for self-defence. That sounds pretty good in theory, but life is a little more complicated than that. I wish things were so simple that you could just walk around doing your thing and then only resort to violence when ruffians rear their ugly heads and start trouble (always after they strike first, of course).
Unfortunately, violence is a complicated and touchy issue. There really is no such thing as self-defense. If you can handle someone without hurting them, they really were never much of a threat. I myself am pretty good with self-defense against 5 year-olds and old ladies. The real question is “when is violence warranted?” This is a moral question for most of us, but for many, it’s more an issue of survival. People struggling to survive might find the whole concept of morality when it comes to fighting a bit silly. If you are in a situation, area or place where no one is protecting you, you may have little choice about when you have to fight.
On the question of “when is violence justified?” which I consider from the comfort of a middle class background and residence in a developed country, I think there are three basic situations when you should perhaps fight or employ violence.
Protecting yourself, friends or family from physical harm.
For long-term status and well-being: This is complicated so I will give a few examples. If there is someone that you live with or near that you often see that uses physicality or threats or implied threats, you need to be willing to have a physical confrontation in order to keep your status. This is usually more important for boys and men than women but can apply for them as well. There are almost always other ways to get what you want out of situation rather than fight, but you may not know how to do them. They are easier to learn if you are willing to fight. A lot in the rough and tumble world of status depends on willingness to fight rather than the ability to win.
Sometimes you see a little brother who is picked on by a big brother. When the little brother fights with everything he has, the big brother will often relent. In the adult world, there may be a big guy that uses implied threat to punk people out (pushing them, grabbing their head), strong objection and willingness to fight, can often put an end to this. When you use fighting in this way, you have to ask yourself if the loss in status, annoyance or humiliation is worth getting hurt badly and make a decision. One principle to remember in these kinds of conflicts is that it is easier to fight back or resist the first time someone messes with you. If you let someone hit you or grab you or disrespect you for a year and then object, expect strong resistance. The first time someone messes with you, they are testing what you will put up with and usually will back off at the first sign of opposition. After you have allowed the behavior for a while, they have already put you at a certain status, so when you resist you are upsetting the status quo in their minds.
And that is really the point of this entry. When is violence justified? Its hard to say, but I don’t think it helps to pretend that violence is not a fundamental part of our reality. It is not something that is avoided by good people and performed by evil people. It’s easy to think of it as something done by base individuals, but in my experience, if someone thinks that violence is a horrible thing that should always be avoided they are being protected by someone else who will have to face the question of violence whether it be a husband, policeman or soldier.
Some people think violence is only justified when protecting yourself, which i find a little naive. On the other hand, I can’t stand when people use flimsy reasoning to justify hurting someone that is not a real threat to them. Many people will attack someone for “insulting” their wife or girlfriend, but it seems to me that they only do it when they are sure they can “win”. Or other times, there is an obnoxious but harmless drunk. Many people will line up at the chance to harm the guy because they get the chance to hurt someone and be “in the right”. Harming someone who is not a direct or indirect threat is simply giving in to our most base instincts and is indefensible in my opinion. Doing it to punish those who are seen as being “wrong” according to some ever-changing arbitrary standard is perhaps the worst form of unjustified violence. Harming people who are “in the wrong” when you have the power is a human instinct that helps give rise to societies that begin to eat themselves as occurred in Nazi Germany, Cambodia, China and many other countries.
I guess what I am saying is that it is quite simple, violence against actual threats is often justified. Violence against non-threats is usually not justifiable. The hardest part may be determining what is a threat and what isn’t.
[quote=“Mother Theresa”]“Fuck you, you’re an asshole,” I told him, “Fucking asshole, fuck you. . . and your car’s a piece of shit, too. Nide cheze bien bien,”
…
“Bu yao,” I told him, “Bu yao gun ni wan” (I don’t want to play with you).[/quote]
Dude, you know to learn some Chinese from someone else other than your daughter. I don’t know if you can say that you won considering you told the guy his car is poo-poo and you impetuously told you don’t want to play with him anymore as if you’re two first-graders at the playground.
Toss his keys in the bushes next time.
Ha! Road rage battles in Taiwan are settled by who has control of the cell phone, keys and kryptonite lock…in that order.
Maybe that’s the order that things should be tossed in the bushes. Phone. Keys. Weapon…
Naw it’s easier —
or open your can of Jimipreseley Woop-Ass “Kraty” (W.A.K)
buy Jimi a beer next time you see him and he’ll show you the basics.
About the finger thing…I think it is more to do with Taiwanese culture on how they deal with confrontation. Once things go into ‘confrontation mode’…it’s hard to back down. Somehow I have avoided fights in Taiwan over many years, it’s better even if you will steam about these things for a few days…generally not worth it.
Also, be careful about threatening people or using English swear words…if they have a witness that can sue you.
Happy birthday MT!
Good for you that you kept your cool. That’s not an easy thing to do.
The learning Chinese thing can help or hurt you. Sure, like alidarbac says, it’d probably be better to say something like, “I don’t want to fight you” instead of “I don’t want to play with you”. However, the more you know, the more you can infuriate other people. For example, I still don’t know many cuss words in Mandarin or Taiwanese, and I think I’m actually better off for not knowing them.
Also, be careful with the middle finger. That says more to people than anything else, and can really get people riled up. I too learned that the hard way, within months of first arriving in Taiwan.
Oh yeah, which guy in the photos above is the crazy guy?
I bet he’s telling all of his buddies that he won the fight, and that this stupid foreigner is so scared that he’s leaving Taiwan in a few days to get away from him. 
Actually, I thought it was kind of funny that I spoke to him in baby talk, heightened the absurdity of it all in my opinion. I started it all by getting right in his face, flipping him off, telling him fuck you, so he responds by rising up in all his manliness, snorting and fuming, jumping about doing karate kicks and calling me out, and I tell him I don’t want to play with him. All that rage and manliness couldn’t conquer a fucking baby talking spandex-wearing bicyclist.
He’s the one in the top photo wearing a plaid/checkered shirt, walking right past his car. He was a couple inches shorter than me but fairly solidly built and maybe 40 years old.
I wondered if he was a gangster or just a spoiled rich boy, because he seriously ranted and raved nonstop, cussing, yelling, fuming, swearing, stomping about like a madman for at least 15 minutes. Apparently he’s not used to having people stand up to him.
Actually it’s very useful to get out your cell phone and record (or make like you are recording) the incident. Makes them stop and think. They’ll be worrying what you are going to do with it! That’s what I do now, stick my phone and out of the window and make like I’m taking a picture.
There is some type of perv observing our apt. block in the mornings from a car across the street. So I got sick of it and went up to him one day, first taking a picture of his reg and then a choice one of him staring directly at me from his car, with a look of shock on his face. Then told him he’d been warned and recorded. He hasn’t been back since. I still wanted to kick his ass but it may not actually be illegal what he is doing.
I had an issue with a Q7 driver who was also acting like a complete polerider.
We scuffled, but I walked away on the advice of the locals.
Turns out he got his ass handed to him on a plate by someone else when I left the scene. Karma!
I think it might be worth it to have a bank of useful statements to make for such situations, like:
“Your driving is really terrible. One day you will kill somebody, and their ghost will haunt you.”
“You drive like a retarded monkey with a hot poker up its ass. Very amusing.”
“There are many bicycles here. Your aggressive driving is dangerous. If you don’t understand this, maybe you are too stupid to drive a car.”
These are less confrontational in a primitive way.
What is the point of fist fighting?
a) self-defense
b) protection of honor
c) protection of rights or property
d) to stop someone from hurting, dishonoring, or violating the rights or property of others
e) to express hatred, anger or to dominate
f) to teach someone a lesson
The last is usually the justification for a road rage fight, but in fact the real reason is often e). But will this actually help you or the world in any way? The debate reminds me of the thread on how to deal with aggressive dogs. What will they learn from being “aggressed” upon in return? To be more considerate, or less so?
[quote=“BigJohn”]
The debate reminds me of the thread on how to deal with aggressive dogs. [/quote]
Next time this situation arises, Mother Theresa, don’t make eye-contact. Just stare into the distance. Oh, and if you have an umbrella handy, open it.