To have a kid or not?

Taiwan Parenting
1

My wife and I met 10 years ago and have been very happily married for seven years. Last year I got a new job, we bought a flat and even got a pet. Overall things are going better than ever before, but a dilemma has arisen in between that now sits like an elephant in the room: my wife wants kids - I do not.
This is nothing new really. Before we got married we spoke about it and recognised that we felt differently about it, but we believed that in time our views on the matter would coalesce one way or another. Unfortunately that has not happened.

Since my wife turned 30 she has become increasingly eager to be a mother, and to give her credit she would be wonderful at it. Now that I am in my mid 30s however, I have realised that I am no more inclined than I was at 20 to be a father. In fact, seeing at close hand what parenting entails amongst friends and relatives only strengthens my resolve not to follow suit.

Usually in this kind of situation it is the spouse who does not want a child who acquiesces, and it usually works out all right. I have never met someone who regretted having a child, even if they did not feel ready for it or suited for parenting. However I have met many people who did not have a child and are often tormented by “what ifs”, especially once they are no longer capable of having a child.

I love my wife dearly and I cannot imagine not sharing my life with her, but I fear that I will hurt her irrevocably, and have her turn away from me if I deny her the chance of being a mum. On the other hand I also value being true to myself. People say that I would be a lovely father and that I am terrific with children, and they are probably right, but it doesn’t change the fact that I still don’t want any. I can’t help it.

At this juncture I don’t know which way to turn. Agreeing to have a child for the sake of my wife and our marriage is clearly not the way to go, but if because of me, we did not have children it would always haunt me that I denied my wife the single most glorious thing possible. What to do?

2

Why don’t you want kids, if that’s not too personal a question? Are the reasons tangible, or more an emotional stance?

3

I was in a similar situation except I was the one who wanted kids and the wife did not. She gave in, but only because she knew I really wanted one and she loved me enough to make this sacrifice. Our boy is one now and it’s been a crazy/tiring/amazing/scary/wonderful/fun/worthwhile experience. If you and your wife can provide a loving and stable home and you both would be great parents, I think you should go for it. It’s definitely rewarding.

4

[quote=“silverspoon”]People say that I would be a lovely father and that I am terrific with children, and they are probably right, but it doesn’t change the fact that I still don’t want any. I can’t help it.[/quote]I’ve heard the same thing from family and friends, but I don’t want any, either. I always told my wife that if she wanted kids, I would give her a maximum of two, but that would require the agreement to leave Taiwan forever and permanently and forever settle in America with only minimal visits to Taiwan. So far, so good. No children and none on the horizon! :smiley:

[quote=“silverspoon”]At this juncture I don’t know which way to turn. Agreeing to have a child for the sake of my wife and our marriage is clearly not the way to go, but if because of me, we did not have children it would always haunt me that I denied my wife the single most glorious thing possible. What to do?[/quote]Difficult quandry. But, I’m a firm believer in that old Dane Polonius’ wise words, “[color=#FF0000]This above all: to thine own self be true, and it must follow, as the night the day,”[/color]. Also, I’m selfish. Do what you feel is best for you first and always.

5

The reasons I don’t want children myself are both tangible and emotional. On a tangible level my biggest concern is not being able to provide for a child in the way that I would want. I know that you don’t have to spend a lot of money on things like education, but instead of that being a comfort it is a worry. I would hate to send my child to a state school. Our flat is too small. We could move in to a bigger house down the line, but that would mean a bigger mortgage and even greater financial pressure – again more of a worry than a comfort.

On an emotional level, I don’t want to give up my freedom. Knowing that I can do whatever I please when I get home from work keeps my life in balance. It scares me to lose that ability. Speaking of work, as a teacher I have my fill of kids during the day. I cannot imagine having to be Mr. Disciplinarian when I get home as well. I need a break from young people for at least half the day.

Most significantly, I don’t like the feeling of people being completely dependant on me. My wife depends on me a lot, as I do on her, but we are both perfectly capable of doing things for ourselves and being self sufficient, unlike kids.

Having a child is also too much of an emotional risk for me. If they mess up, they mess up my life too. What if my child is just not a nice person? Having a wife is also an emotional investment, but unlike a child, if she messes up, I have the ability to leave her and get on with my life.

6

My gut feeling, from what I’ve read here, personally I’m not sure I would base a decision like this on something someone told me on an internet forum, but what the hell, is that you can’t deny that to your mate, if she or he really wants it, and you’re sure you love them.

7

Tempo Gain, I quite agree with you, I owe it to my mate to have a child, and I would love it without question, but then I owe it to myself as well not to have a child and lead the life I wish to. There is no solution to this predicament, but I value the thoughts of people on this forum who have become parents and who might have been in a similar frame of mind to me.

8

I really don’t think it’s possible to say what you ought to do.

Conveniently, we seem to be made so as to rationalize the outcome of most turning-point decisions as ultimately being the best thing, all things considered. (Reducing cognitive dissonance.) So, as you said, it’s very rare that someone would regret having a child… even single mothers who consign themselves decades of poverty will typically say, “I wouldn’t give up my baby for anything, but don’t do what I did.”

Having a child definitely alters your life, and not always in ways welcome or appreciated. My daughter’s coming up on two, and her lil’ sister will be arriving in a couple of months. I have no regrets: always wanted kids. My wife wasn’t sure about kids, then thought one would be alright… then thought maybe two. She’s very happy…most of the time… but Sprout is very, very easy to care for. My sister’s daughter is now a year and a half, and is loved to bits, but she’s far more difficult to care for. Neither my sister, nor her husband, want another: not now; not without some means of sharing the burden should the second prove as trying. Luck of the draw.

I believe that, later in life, most people regret not the mistakes they made, but what they never even tried to do. That may not mean ‘have a child’; it may mean that having a child you would forfeit your freedom to do x, y, z, and you’d regret x, y, z. (Are you doing those things?) I suppose you could take a utilitarian approach and weigh (all the things you’d like to do but couldn’t with kids) x (the probability of actually doing them) against all of the (for you, unanticipated; for your wife, yearned for) joys of parenthood. Not an approach I recommend, because it involves tossing incomparable goods onto the same set of scales, but an option all the same.

Having a child, what would you give up?

Financial security? Kids are definitely an added responsibility. But, IMVHO, you’re exaggerating the horrors of a state school, and of a smallish apartment. I’d kill to have a mortgage, particularly on a cozy little place: instead I have the equivalent of a small mortgage on my brain, and little prospect of escaping rent anytime time in the foreseeable future.

The freedom to know that you can do as you please when you get home? Yeah, it’s a loss. I lost the ability to sit down, waste time on f.com, play Civ, go play hockey two or three times a week, etc, etc. I gained a lil’ munchkin who races to open the door when she hears the keys in the lock and always greets me with a shout of “Baba!” and big hug, who (at this point) wants nothing more than to play, read, draw pictures and drag me around by the hand. I am happy; it is a tradeoff. No regrets, so far. But, what would you really be giving up, beyond knowing that you could do whatever you fancy? (btw, I hope you don’t feel obliged to answer. I think these are good questions, but the answers and their relative weight are entirely your business, and may take a good deal of time to work out.)

You don’t want kids to take up too much of your day, because you’re already teaching kids half the day: ok… change your work. There are options out there; it’s not a difficult adjustment.

Worried about how the kids might mess up. Kids will mess up: comes with being people. Don’t worry about it. Teach 'em right from wrong, give 'em plenty of chances to practice making the right choice, then let 'em find their own way.

Do you want to mow through the best and worst case scenarios?
You have a kid and love your life.
You have a kid and hate your life.
You have a kid, hate your life, and leave your wife. (What would she think of that deal?)

You don’t have a kid and love your life.
You don’t have a kid and hate your life.
You don’t have a kid and your wife leaves you to do so. (What would you think of that deal?)

I think this may sound too much like encouragement to have a kid; that’s not my intention. Some people really shouldn’t have kids. My impression from the little you’ve written is that your arguments against having a child are largely emotional, based on fear and selfishness. Put that way, your reasoning sounds rather ignoble, but what of it?: A motive doesn’t have to be pure or rational to be compelling. (Still, I don’t know how much weight I’d give such reasoning. Nonetheless, it’s probably a bad idea to let yourself be ‘guilted into’ parenthood.)

Maybe this is a useful question: who (or what) are you? You say you need to be true to yourself. Very well, what are you being true to? What do you value/admire/require? Is enacting those virtues important to you, or are you content to think well of an idea without putting it into practice? Are you (or your values) fixed, or malleable/evolving?

I don’t envy you your dilemma. It must be very difficult to decide how to decide, as well as what. As your wife is 30 you have some time, but maybe not a lot if she’s determined to have kids, with or without you.

I wish you wisdom and luck.

9

I met my wife 11 years ago and have been very happily married for 8 years. For most of our life together, neither of us wanted kids. A few years ago, we decided after very little discussion that having a family is something we’d like to do after all. We had some things to take care of first, like going to graduate school and saving more money to deal with the costs of having children. We’re now 30, and hoping to start a family in the next couple of years.

You’re in an unenviable position. But, as they say, you can’t be half-pregnant. You’re asking for opinions on what to do, and I say go for it. All of us make sacrifices for our spouses, and her asking for a child is a reasonable and natural request for a 30 year old woman. You give the impression of being a thoughtful man and dedicated husband, and I’m sure you’ll make a fine father. Best of luck to you.

10

Jaboney, thank you for your thoughtful response, it has given me a lot to think about. In particular your questioning of what it is exactly that I would be giving up if I had a child, aside from the general notion of being free to do as I please. I guess what I would be giving up is precisely the freedom to do what I would like. Essentially, I would like to paint more and get back into art. It is fundamentally important to me, not just a hobby on the side. Recently I finished a painting on commission and am now about to start the next. Admittedly, I could be much more prolific, and I can give many reasons why I am not, but if a child came along that would well and truly be the end of it.

I like to think that once my teaching load eases off and I gain a bit more financial stability that I will have the space and time to do more art. I would not like to have that space taken up by a child, however selfish that may seem. The dream of being a full time artist is always there on the horizon – it is what keeps me moving forward.

Something else you wrote that struck a chord was simply changing my job if I found it too much to be around kids all day and then have a kid waiting for me at home too. If only it was that simple. The problem is that I have invested heavily in becoming a teacher and it is what pays the bills really. I don’t know what else I would do that offers the same job security and pay. Perhaps I am just making excuses though for not extending myself. I see it as being realistic though.

Your deepest question was who or what am I. My answer would be, an artist (at least to myself, in my heart). I cannot reconcile that with being a father. It is too much of a private pursuit. Someone once wrote that you don’t need to be a bachelor to be a writer, but it helps. I feel the same way about not being a father. I can attend to my own needs to create – if only in the time I have outside of work.

Gao Bohan, thank you for your reply too. I value your opinion to just go for it and have a child and to enjoy being a father. So many people I have spoken to said that once you hold your own child in your arms, everything else that seemed to matter before no longer does if it is in any way in conflict with the interests of your child – that your whole life becomes redefined in the most wonderful way. Maybe one day my wife and I will also reach a natural, unforced decision to have a child. It certainly would make everything so much simpler.

11

I absolutely get what you are saying. I can’t ever see myself having a kid because of all the reasons you state. I’m selfish, I’m independent, I want my time to be MINE…not some grubby little thing bugging me.

but. I’m alone.

If I loved someone who was terribly hurt by the fact that she can’t be a mom, I would do it. I don’t have the honor of seeing someone I love mashed into someone like me(will have to get some sperm somewhere)…and I think that if my wife wanted a child badly, I would do it because I would want to see my wife happy and see her be a mom. That kid is going to grow up, move out…but your wife will be without a kid for the rest of her life.

This is how I would think about it. Also, I would be so scared that it didn’t work out because of the tension, or that something may happen to me when I’m older, and then my wife has nobody, and she’s too old to have one.

12

The wifey and I were married six years before we had our first child. We both agreed we wanted to do some hardcore travelling first, start a business, get financially set and then start a family. We did that. Having a child is the best thing in the world. Be it 1 or 3.
I come home from a shitty day at work, tired and pissed off. I open the door and there is my son saying"Daddy, did you have fun today?"
Everything from that shitty day goes out the window as I can play, read books, or take him to the park. Even watching him have a bath or cooking for him makes me feel great!
People say having kids is stressful, I have never felt so carefree and relaxed in my life. Take the plunge!

13

You don’t know that at all. Couldn’t you speak to your wife about your concerns that parenthood would make it harder to be an artist in the way that you dream of being? I bet she would be supportive and that you guys could come to some kind of agreement that you could have special time, or a special space, where you couldn’t be disturbed accept in emergency. Then you could have your artistic space, and your wife would agree to parent without you for those hours, or something.

[quote=“silverspoon”]I like to think that once my teaching load eases off and I gain a bit more financial stability that I will have the space and time to do more art. I would not like to have that space taken up by a child, however selfish that may seem. The dream of being a full time artist is always there on the horizon – it is what keeps me moving forward.

Something else you wrote that struck a chord was simply changing my job if I found it too much to be around kids all day and then have a kid waiting for me at home too. If only it was that simple. The problem is that I have invested heavily in becoming a teacher and it is what pays the bills really. I don’t know what else I would do that offers the same job security and pay. Perhaps I am just making excuses though for not extending myself. I see it as being realistic though.

Your deepest question was who or what am I. My answer would be, an artist (at least to myself, in my heart). I cannot reconcile that with being a father. It is too much of a private pursuit. Someone once wrote that you don’t need to be a bachelor to be a writer, but it helps. I feel the same way about not being a father. I can attend to my own needs to create – if only in the time I have outside of work.[/quote]

Again, you make time for teaching–by agreeing to do it from x to y on days xyz. You might have to make time for art in the same way. And anyway, kids can be unbelievably inspirational!

I am a woman and I always wanted kids. When I was 16 years old, my biggest dream was to be a great mom with at least SIX kids! Thank God, but I didn’t have a boyfriend at that stage in my life! And I didn’t marry until I was almost 30. It really looked like I was going to be single for life and I’d given up on the idea of kids. I didn’t want to be a single mom.

Then I married and was told after almost two years of trying that I couldn’t have kids. I resolved myself again to being childless for the time being, and maybe adopting later on. And then I was pregnant the next month!! (Really, you never know. This may just be decided for you when you least expect it!)

Then things didn’t work out with my husband and now–I’m a single mom!

As Jaboney said above, I’ve never regretted my son, not one single time. In fact, the first time I stopped to consider what life would have been like for me without him these last 8 years or so was when I was listening to another single mom I know talk about thinking about that in her own life. And the thought was chilling to me; I don’t ever want to consider it. I love my child more than my next breath, and that the God’s honest truth.

But I did feel extremely, extremely resentful of my husband for forcing me into single motherhood. We aren’t only divorced, but he has nothing to do with his son. There is no other parenting at all. Now, of course, I’m grateful for that as well, but it was terribly difficult for a long time, and still isn’t easy.

My income is limited by the amount of hours I have to spend working. That’s limited by the amount of time I feel I can take away from my son. I have to chose to sacrifice income, or sacrifice kid time and relationship strength with my son. That can be tough.

That means that I can almost NEVER care for him in the way I’d prefer to. I remember this being one of your concerns, and I feel it’s very legit. But I can tell you this: one of the last conversations my son had with his father was when he was two, or maybe just barely three, years old. It was on the telephone and went something like this, “Yes daddy, you can come here to see me, but you can’t live in this house. Because, this is my house, mine and my mommy’s. Because, my mommy always takes care of me.”

And that’s the point. Kids need love and care. The rest is pure gravy. And from your post about your concerns, it sounds to me like you’re thinking a bit like a parent already! :wink:

14

Ha! That’s how I felt about marriage, not parenthood.

But then fate led me to get married at age 40-whatever and to have a child shortly thereafter and, you know what, it’s all better than I figured it would be. Sure, one does give up freedom and independence, but the benefits are greater than one might expect.

In fact, while my wife is fine and wonderful, there’s nothing in the world that comes anywhere close to having a child. You know how excited people get about getting pregnant and having a baby? Well that’s nothing. It only gets better with every passing day – seeing him/her learn to crawl, walk, talk, read, write, swim, dance, rollerskate, bike, ask questions about this and that, start helping out with various tasks, heading off to school. You can’t imagine what a constant thrill it is to have a child till you’ve actually had one.

I hear you. I loved my freedom and independence. I enjoyed getting smashed and stoned way past my prime because there was no one there to bitch about my bad behavior. I quit working, sold everything and traipsed about SE Asia and the Himalayas for a year because there was no one there to tell me how irresponsible I was. I sampled a fair share of females, and moved on to the next, because I hadn’t made any binding committment. Ha ha ha. But, I was alone. And there’s no greater thrill than having a beautiful child of your own, to hold and hug and talk to and do things together and raise through one stage after another. Nothing in life has ever given me half the thrill, day after day after day.

So, I say have a child. You’ll never regret it.

15

To the OP:

One way to look at it might be a sort of utilitarian calculation:

Your suffering if you have a child = X
Your wife’s suffering if she doesn’t = Y

If X > Y, don’t. If Y > X, do.

You also have to factor in level of certainty. You might not mind having a kid, after all. While your wife will almost certainly feel bad if she doesn’t.

The above is my logical response. The following is my gut reaction:

I don’t believe that, just because we’re Westerners, it’s our moral duty to be selfish. You’re married, so you’re a team. Take care of your wife: make her happy. Or, let her go if you can’t give her what she needs. Don’t become the stone that drags her down.

Anyway, my 2 cents worth.

16

[quote=“silverspoon”]My wife and I met 10 years ago and have been very happily married for seven years. Last year I got a new job, we bought a flat and even got a pet. Overall things are going better than ever before, but a dilemma has arisen in between that now sits like an elephant in the room: my wife wants kids - I do not.
This is nothing new really. Before we got married we spoke about it and recognised that we felt differently about it, but we believed that in time our views on the matter would coalesce one way or another. Unfortunately that has not happened.

Since my wife turned 30 she has become increasingly eager to be a mother, and to give her credit she would be wonderful at it. Now that I am in my mid 30s however, I have realised that I am no more inclined than I was at 20 to be a father. In fact, seeing at close hand what parenting entails amongst friends and relatives only strengthens my resolve not to follow suit.

Usually in this kind of situation it is the spouse who does not want a child who acquiesces, and it usually works out all right. I have never met someone who regretted having a child, even if they did not feel ready for it or suited for parenting. However I have met many people who did not have a child and are often tormented by “what ifs”, especially once they are no longer capable of having a child.

I love my wife dearly and I cannot imagine not sharing my life with her, but I fear that I will hurt her irrevocably, and have her turn away from me if I deny her the chance of being a mum. On the other hand I also value being true to myself. People say that I would be a lovely father and that I am terrific with children, and they are probably right, but it doesn’t change the fact that I still don’t want any. I can’t help it.

At this juncture I don’t know which way to turn. Agreeing to have a child for the sake of my wife and our marriage is clearly not the way to go, but if because of me, we did not have children it would always haunt me that I denied my wife the single most glorious thing possible. What to do?[/quote]

I think it’s kind of a tough situation to be in when one spouse wants children and the other does not. I think people who sincerely do not want children need to find others who feel the same. It is unfair to force a would-be parent to remain childless. It’s basically like asking the person to choose between their dream and their relationship with you. The consequences are permanent and there is the risk of long-lasting bitterness. I think compromising and having one child is the way to go.

I also think you are worrying too much about being able to provide for your child. As hard as things are, the majority of posters here are better off than the largest number of people in the world. Sure, it would be nice if we were all billionaires, but most of us aren’t-- nor is over 99% of humanity. If it helps at all, studies show that the most meaningful things to people aren’t things at all; they’re experiences. If you can fill a child’s life full of meaningful experiences, his/her life will much richer than a coddled rich kid’s.

17

To the OP, I second what jaboney says. Being a mum myself, I like you mention, don’t regret having kids. I was not sure if I wanted one, but I don’t regret having 2! that said, as a guy, trust me, you won’t have to make THAT many changes in your life asmuch as a woman does, even IF you are a hands on daddy. And if you do, its only for a few years and mostly after the infancy stage till school that’s ages 2-4 max 5.

About cash, kids don’t need money. Seriously, they don’t. About they being dependent on you…well like B9 says, you also have someone to come home to. children are not just food sucking monsters, they are people that you love and interact with. But yeah mostly what Jaboney said.

18

It’s life, it’s about compromises! We just had a kid last year, it’s been great and we definitely feel like a family now and have an extra dimension to our lives. He brings joy to everybody around him. Sure there are compromises about where to go, what you can do, but that is all temporary and for everything in life there is a trade-off…everything. We live in Taiwan, we have warm weather but bad Western food (in the main), you can never get everything you want.
Nobody is perfect, you may not even be the perfect father, maybe the mother will take the heavy load, well if so so be it, what’s the harm?

19

I love kids but don’t really want the lifestyle changes it entails. It’s my choice. If my wife really wanted one I would be happy to, but I feel she doesn’t. The subject is only brought about due to pressure from the family and others.

What really irks me is the enormous social pressure here that puts an expectation on you to have children. I understand her parents desire to have descendants to honor them on tomb-sweeping day and such but what business is it of neighbors, colleagues and even my students who constantly make comments about it?

20

[quote=“Charlie Phillips”]
What really irks me is the enormous social pressure here that puts an expectation on you to have children. I understand her parents desire to have descendants to honor them on tomb-sweeping day and such but what business is it of neighbors, colleagues and even my students who constantly make comments about it?[/quote]

Now you might be able to talk a spouse into or out of this or that, but society you’ll never change!