Thanks DB. I want to paste what they said about the third tone…
[quote]Third tone (low or dipping tone, 上聲/上声 shǎngshēng or shàngshēng, literal meaning: “up tone”):
has a mid-low to low descent; if at the end of a sentence or before a pause, it is then followed by a rising pitch. Between other tones it may simply be low. [/quote]
Is there an agreement on that. And if so what gesture would you use to teach it?
Why not just mimic the actual tone contour occurring in the particular context, rather than always the idealized, full (and sometimes incorrect) dipping and rising?
Here is what they said about the fifth tone.
[quote]The following are from Beijing dialect[8]. Other dialects may be slightly different.
Realization of neutral tones Tone of first syllable Pitch of neutral tone Example Pinyin English meaning
1 ˥ ˨ (2) 玻璃 (˥.˨) bōli glass
2 ˧˥ ˧ (3) 伯伯 (˧˥.˧) bóbo uncle
3 ˨˩ ˦ (4) 喇叭 (˨˩.˦) lǎba horn
4 ˥˩ ˩ (1) 兔子 (˥˩.˩) tùzi rabbit [/quote]
Are we to read this with the second number relating to the standard graph so fifth preceeded by the first drops way down, after two it drops but not as far as after one, after three it actually goes up, and after four it stays down?
The 1-2
2-3
3-4
4-1
is easy to remember.
OK. I’m asking you guys because I think you know. But let’s imagine that you beginning with absolute beginners. What gesture would you actually teach?
I wouldn’t teach the full third tone.
And since there appears to be four pitches of the neutral tone, may I suggest you hold a praying mantis stance and poke at the throat, left nipple, right nipple, and belly button.
Yeah.
EDIT:
OK. I’m asking you guys because I think you know. But let’s imagine that you beginning with absolute beginners. What gesture would you actually teach?[/quote]
I don’t know whether I’d try hand gestures. I learned just fine without them. 
But if using them I’d restrict the full 3rd to its initial presentation (day one ma1ma2ma3ma4) and the spots where it has that value. Teaching students to do a full 3rd when native speakers don’t use a full 3rd is, basically, to teach incorrect pronunciation. Both oral pronunciation (including tones) and gestures of tones should be faithful to authentic pronunciation, which is what the students should be striving to replicate. IMHO.
[quote=“sjcma”]I wouldn’t teach the full third tone.
And since there appears to be four pitches of the neutral tone, may I suggest you hold a praying mantis stance and poke at the throat, left nipple, right nipple, and belly button.[/quote]
I like your ideas about the fifth tone but the question remains:
What gesture would you actually teach to a beginner the first few times you introduce the third tone.
Probably just a small dipping motion around the belly. However, I’m not a big fan of hand gestures. Let’s say I was learning a new tonal language, like Shanghainese. I’d appreciate lines appearing on the screen rather than hand gestures. Lines on a screen preserves the entire contour from beginning to end. The hand gesture is transient. I guess it’s more fun…maybe for the first 2 minutes, esp. if some sexy lady does it with a low cut tank top. After that, the lines…the lines…
You guys either never had much trouble with tones or you never tried doing the gestures consistently. You don’t need to do them every time you talk of course but when you are trying to learn something new especially or when you are doing a review they are essential in my experience. The effect it creates is the difference between thinking it out, “oh yeah I remember such and such is such and such tone because I learned it here or there,” and actually “knowing.” I mean being absolutely positive in your whole body. It is a major difference and I am guessing it would work for most people. I personally wouldn’t dream of teaching “adult” beginner’s any other way. Tons of input yes, but if I was talking the input would be accompanied by clear gestures. And if someone was struggling with tones (they all struggle with tones) I’d insist on them performing them. It is the best tool there is (besides perhaps color coding).
By the way sjmca, I’m the one that suggested that peggy wear less revealing clothes. I suggested it and she did it. She is following my advice on a bunch of things. Completely ignored it on a bunch of others but that is how it goes.
I agreed to write one script for her. I’ll do that if she wants. If ironlady feels that I am training the enemy or something I’ll quit after that.
What, as in completely wrong, you mean?[/quote]
It wasn’t “completely” wrong. Third tone is sometimes pronounced that way. I worked out a resonably good compromise gesture for the tone. If you’ve got a better one offer it.[/quote]
Ironlady’s example of how the “TH” sound in English is produced is completely wrong (because “TH” is dental, not alveolar). If a teacher pronounces “thank you” as “sank you” that’s a gross error, using the wrong phoneme entirely. On the other hand your description of the contour of the third tone is essentially correct. People are only faulting it because it’s an “idealized” contour, not the one used in running speech.
The implication of Ironlady’s example seems to be that your 3rd tone explanation is completely wrong. I think she just meant to say ‘kind of like listening to a teacher of English explaining how you should pronounce the “th” sound by placing your tongue in contact with your upper front teeth’
I’m not talking about “explaining” anything. I’m talking about trying to create an accurate visual representation of the tones using gestures.
Anyway, that whole episode was unfortunate. Let’s forget it.
I don’t understand why you would need to.
[quote=“bob”][quote=“Dr Jellyfish”] It was a pronunciation course and they were using their own materials, it was a thin blue book, which contained a lot of tonal exercises and spent a lot of time explaining how to use the 3rd tone, they split it up into 3 different kinds:
first half - 2.1
second half - 1.4
full 3rd tone - 2.1.4
From studying that course, I found out that odd thing about the 3rd tone is that - the full 3rd tone is hardly every used, when it is used it’s mainly for emphasis or if it’s being used for an isolated character, otherwise you need to use the first half 2.1 or second half 1.4, that’s the real challenge.
[/quote]
Thanks.
Are the numbers from the graph I provided at the beginning of this thread or…?[/quote]
No, they’re taken from the tonal scale where 1 is the lowest and 5 the highest, e.g - 1st tone is a constant 5, 2nd tone is 2.5 and 4th tone is 5.1
I don’t understand why you would need to.[/quote]
Well, because it might help people to learn to pronounce them properly.
I don’t understand why you would need to.[/quote]
Well, because it might help people to learn to pronounce them properly.[/quote]
Thanks man.
In my case at least it was the only thing that saved my ass from giving up on the language completely. It allows you to respond to the language as if it were music, that is, by singing and dancing.
Viewing the language as music makes it more pleasurable. Because it is pleasurable you do it more and because you do it more you are more successful.
For a native speaker of English there is nothing more important than tones and there is no better way to learn them than by attaching a gesture. An exagerated gesture in the beginning and a more subtle gesture as the speech becomes more rapid and connected. I’d LOVE to see somebody who can actually do that. It must be such a gorgeous thing. Right now when I do it I just exagerate everything.
(BTW - Sorry smithsgj for whatever the kaffufle was earlier. I think we all just got our wires crossed on that one.)
What, as in completely wrong, you mean?
…ironlady’s example of how the “TH” sound in English is produced is completely wrong (because “TH” is dental, not alveolar). If a teacher pronounces “thank you” as “sank you” that’s a gross error, using the wrong phoneme entirely. On the other hand your description of the contour of the third tone is essentially correct. People are only faulting it because it’s an “idealized” contour, not the one used in running speech.
The implication of Ironlady’s example seems to be that your 3rd tone explanation is completely wrong. I think she just meant to say ‘kind of like listening to a teacher of English explaining how you should pronounce the “th” sound by placing your tongue in contact with your upper front teeth’[/quote]
No, I really did mean that. Pedagogically speaking, IMHO it’s as close to being completely incorrect as it could be. The only difference is that “full-third” tone does exist in rare instances, while an alveolar [th] sounds does not and cannot (it would be an [sh] sound instead, that’s just physiology).
Saying as we already seem to be getting there, how about developing a full set of kung-fu moves to represent and reinforce each tone, this way the student will probably be less likely to make the same mistake often.
First tone: could be a spinning chop aimed at the students head/neck area, the arm must be kept at shoulder level, a large sweeping motion can reinforce the fact that 1st tone needs to be held for a longer period of time.
Second tone: can easily be performed with a swift roundhouse to the head/neck, this should be performed quite fast to emphasize the speed of the second tone.
Third tone: first half - stomp to the shin/knee area (2.1) second half - side kick to the head/neck (2.4 - I’ve made this a little different from the second tone - that way it’s easier to distinguish which is which, even though they strike the same area).
Fourth tone: an axe kick, for this you need to be quite dextrous - first you must do the splits standing up (that’s just the starting position), then you release your leg bringing your heel down upon the student’s toes (5.1).
For the neutral tone, I think I’ll borrow sjcma’s praying mantis strikes.
Let’s see Peggy try these moves out! If she does, I’ll definately be watching her videos from now on.
An [s] sound; [sh] is further back.
But in slow deliberate speech (especially some kinds of formal speech, like at funerals 
) I think the 3rd tone does get its full value, and the full value is a kind of target. Isn’t it more like teaching the word “of” as /ov/ when the real pronunciation is usually /@v/ ? (@=schwa)
