Instead of adopting an already-existing system which is both a UN and ISO standard, and which is universally taught in Mandarin classes all over the world (Hanyu Pinyin), they decided to waste time and resources to invent yet another system (Hanyu Pinyin, Wade-Giles, Yale and MPSII already existed), thereby further complicating and confusing the status of Chinese romanization.
Add to this the fact that nobody uses this system: foreigners learn Hanyu Pinyin and only Hanyu Pinyin in schools throughout the world, and the local Taiwanese certainly don’t use it - just try asking a local to spell something in Tongyong.
On top of this is the fact that Tongyong was born out of political desires instead of out of practicality.
Tongyong should be scrapped and thrown onto the trash heap of “bad ideas”.
I’m not a teacher, but I wanted to throw in my NT$2 worth, since some questioned the value of teaching this to Taiwanese.
I am an Electronic Engineer, I have my own small business that I run with my wife, who handles all of the Chinese stuff.
I think that I am at a competitive advantage to most of our competition simply because a lot of our equipment comes with English documentation and manuals. Even if it is as simple as a wiring diagram,
a lot of otherwise very bright Taiwanese engineers fall on their ass simply because they have trouble with “ABC”.
I recently hired a local Engineer to cut down on our workload. He is very bright and capable, can handle conversational English well, but damn if I can communicate a simple electronic formula (E=I*R),
to him.
Almost every job has a need for alpha or alphanumeric characters, whether it be a part or model #, web or e-mail address, or street address if you are involved in multi-national trade.
I just feel that they are put at a competitive disadvantage by not being familiar and comfortable with roman letters.
How the hell can you do international trade without it?
And for the Tongyong fan that posted, if you know the system well, it is ok.
The thing is Tongyong is not very natural to most western people. Why teach a system that will only create confusion to most people?
Han Yu is not perfect, but is the best yet.
Taiwanese will only lose out to mainlanders because they will have that advantage because they are comfortable with “b” verses “ㄅ”.
First of all, arguing about the UN won’t get anywhere with me. I think that is a useless organization. Remember, it refuses to let in functioning states like Taiwan, Somaliland, and Kosovo into the organization due to the objections of other, less democratic states.
Second, if we have to accept Hanyu Pinyin, what’s next, fake Chinese characters (aka Simplified?) This, too, is the UN standard. So, is that the rationale for accepting Hanyu? We then should accept the fake Chinese characters?
Also, there are flaws in Hanyu and especally Wade-Giles (not familiar enough with MPSII to assess it). Why not try to create a better system?
Ask any Taiwanese to spell ANYTHING in ANY Romanization system. I think it would be better to choose a system and teach it in schools like the Chinese do.
[quote]On top of this is the fact that Tongyong was born out of political desires instead of out of practicality.
Tongyong should be scrapped and thrown onto the trash heap of “bad ideas”.[/quote]
So, trying to create a system that addresses the problems of Hanyu and create a better system is a bad idea?
[quote=“bobl”]And for the Tongyong fan that posted, if you know the system well, it is ok.
The thing is Tongyong is not very natural to most western people. Why teach a system that will only create confusion to most people?
Han Yu is not perfect, but is the best yet.
[/quote]
Natural? There is nothing “natural” about any writing system, especially a transliteration system. It is only learned, not natural or innate.
No, adding yet another new system into an already crowded mix is a bad idea, especially when there’s already a very convenient, effective and universally used system available - especially when one of Taiwan’s goals is internationalization.
What are the problems with Hanyu Pinyin? No system is perfect, but HYPY comes damn close.
Tongyong has its own inconsistencies, such as “ciang” vs. “cyong” and “ben” vs. “wun” (two distinct letters for the same sound (i/y, e/u)). Also consider “san” vs.“sin” (two distinct sounds using the same letter (s)).
I started to write something last night but then saw that during the time I was working on the post Chris made most of the points I would have. So I stopped. But more has been written since then, so I thought I’d add a little more.
There are some conditions under which a new romanization system might succeed in supplanting an older one. For that to happen, the older system would be one that suffers from at least some of the following problems:
[ul][li]is known by almost no one[/li]
[li]is supported by little or no material[/li]
[li]is liked by only a few people[/li]
[li]is seriously flawed[/li]
[li]is difficult to learn[/li]
[li]is designed in a way that its users are likely to make a relatively high number of typos and other errors[/li]
[li]has no well-designed orthography[/li]
[li]is cumbersome (such as by being especially prolix)[/li][/ul]Should there be an absence of a need to correct such problems, any attempt at substitution is likely to be not only a waste of time, money, and effort, but also simply a failure.
Despite ungrounded assertions above of “flaws in Hanyu Pinyin,” none of the above conditions apply to Hanyu Pinyin.
On the other hand, most of those conditions do apply to Tongyong Pinyin.
I think that is the only major flaw in Hanyu Pinyin, the need to use an umlaut for ㄩ, for example for the Chinese “green” (Hanyu: lü; Tongyong: lyu). If you don’t have the umlaut on your keyboard or you don’t know how to switch to a German keyboard layout, you have to use “lu”, which is of course already reserved for ㄨ in words like “lu” (road). Other than that Tongyong is made more complicated than Hanyu by adding letters like “h” in words like Shi h lin or “y” in words like Minc y uan. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Shilin or Minquan. For foreigners Hanyu is much easier to memorize.
Let’s face it, the decision to invent Tongyong was politically motivated (“we need a new system, but it must be different from the Mainland one”) and those “experts” used a lot of strange arguments to convince people that the new system was a better version than Hanyu. One example was that Tongyong could be used for Taiwanese as well. Well does anyone use it for Taiwanese now? I hope the new government switches completely to one system for everything including passport names, road signs, city names, government-run organizations, place names, schools, school books, etc etc. This could take many years and cost a lot of money, but once it is in place, all the silliness would have an end and we could focus on the the other silly things in Taiwan.
It absolutely boggles the mind how pedantic and stubborn some people are about romanization.
Has it not occurred to anyone that most teachers put their students’ interest ahead of political obsessions? Teachers care about their students and hope to help them. The reason so many people here would teach pinyin is because it would help their students communicate with foreigners, help them teach or do conversation exchange in the US, Canada, Australia, Japan, Europe or just about anywhere most Taiwanese students would like to study abroad.
Pinyin is a world-wide standard. Like the QUERTY keyboard layout or the Windows operating system, it has its flaws, but it’s what people use and it’s worth learning… even for people who prefer something else.
[quote=“Xiaoma”]It absolutely boggles the mind how pedantic and stubborn some people are about romanization.
Has it not occurred to anyone that most teachers put their students’ interest ahead of political obsessions? Teachers care about their students and hope to help them. The reason so many people here would teach Pinyin is because it would help their students communicate with foreigners, help them teach or do conversation exchange in the US, Canada, Australia, Japan, Europe or just about anywhere most Taiwanese students would like to study abroad.
Pinyin is a world-wide standard. Like the QUERTY keyboard layout or the Windows operating system, it has its flaws, but it’s what people use and it’s worth learning… even for people who prefer something else.[/quote]
WHy does it matter how someone spells their own name? If they want to use Hanyu pinyin, Tongyong, Wade-Giles or whatever? Honestly? Do you think most Americans or Australians or Britons are really going to care less what form of pinyin is on your passport or what system you use to write your name with? Give me a break.
WHy does it matter how someone spells their own name? If they want to use Hanyu Pinyin, Tongyong, Wade-Giles or whatever? Honestly? Do you think most Americans or Australians or Britons are really going to care less what form of Pinyin is on your passport or what system you use to write your name with? Give me a break.[/quote]
At least the millions of foreigners learning Chinese now using Hanyu Pinyin would find it easier to communicate with students from Taiwan.
That’s pretty funny. I can assure you that you don’t need a German keyboard to type Chinese using hanyu pinyin and there’s no need to ever use an umlaut. Hanyu pinyin’s “ü” is entered as a “v”. Thus 呂 is typed in toneless hanyu pinyin as “lv”.
That’s pretty funny. I can assure you that you don’t need a German keyboard to type Chinese using hanyu Pinyin and there’s no need to ever use an umlaut. Hanyu Pinyin’s “ü” is entered as a “v”. Thus 呂 is typed in toneless hanyu Pinyin as “lv”.[/quote]
If the output you want is characters, then yes. If you want Pinyin though…?
That’s pretty funny. I can assure you that you don’t need a German keyboard to type Chinese using hanyu Pinyin and there’s no need to ever use an umlaut. Hanyu Pinyin’s “ü” is entered as a “v”. Thus 呂 is typed in toneless hanyu Pinyin as “lv”.[/quote]
If the output you want is characters, then yes. If you want Pinyin though…?[/quote]
I use a Mac, so it’s just option-u, then type the character. Still no need for a German keyboard. Can’t imagine Windows would be any more complicated.
[quote=“ludahai”][quote=“bobl”]And for the Tongyong fan that posted, if you know the system well, it is ok.
The thing is Tongyong is not very natural to most western people. Why teach a system that will only create confusion to most people?
Han Yu is not perfect, but is the best yet.
[/quote]
Natural? There is nothing “natural” about any writing system, especially a transliteration system. It is only learned, not natural or innate.[/quote]
I’m talking about everyday common use for furriners, not a detailed technical analysis.
When I got off the plane in Taibei seven years ago, and tried to get a plane ticket to “Taitung”, I was just meet with blank stares.
Had it said Tai Dong, I may have stood a better chance.
It took me months to try and figure out my way around.
I didn’t come here to study Chinese, and I am not a linguistics nut. I came here for business and to make money.
If the Taiwanese want to compete in the rest of the world, they need to stop the “Planet Taiwan” isolationist bullshit.
If not, thats ok, my kid and all of the other mixed kids here will have a huge advantage.
That’s pretty funny. I can assure you that you don’t need a German keyboard to type Chinese using hanyu Pinyin and there’s no need to ever use an umlaut. Hanyu Pinyin’s “ü” is entered as a “v”. Thus 呂 is typed in toneless hanyu Pinyin as “lv”.[/quote]
If the output you want is characters, then yes. If you want Pinyin though…?[/quote]
I use a Mac, so it’s just option-u, then type the character. Still no need for a German keyboard. Can’t imagine Windows would be any more complicated.[/quote]
Yeah, I’m Mac’d up too - try typing pinyin with tones on Win XP though. Pain in the arse. With OS X the extended US Input Method converts the v to a ü automatically when you add a tone-mark - type Option-v, v and you’ll get ǚ.
[quote=“ludahai”][quote=“Xiaoma”]It absolutely boggles the mind how pedantic and stubborn some people are about romanization.
Has it not occurred to anyone that most teachers put their students’ interest ahead of political obsessions? Teachers care about their students and hope to help them. The reason so many people here would teach Pinyin is because it would help their students communicate with foreigners, help them teach or do conversation exchange in the US, Canada, Australia, Japan, Europe or just about anywhere most Taiwanese students would like to study abroad.
Pinyin is a world-wide standard. Like the QUERTY keyboard layout or the Windows operating system, it has its flaws, but it’s what people use and it’s worth learning… even for people who prefer something else.[/quote]
WHy does it matter how someone spells their own name? If they want to use Hanyu Pinyin, Tongyong, Wade-Giles or whatever? Honestly? Do you think most Americans or Australians or Britons are really going to care less what form of Pinyin is on your passport or what system you use to write your name with? Give me a break.[/quote]
I don’t know if you’re missing the point intentionally or not, but I’ll give this one more try. The main value in learning pinyin, or in learning English for that matter, is the ability to communicate with people not from Taiwan. I never once brought up whether or not Taiwanese people would rethink the romanizations of their own names. What I did say is that knowing pinyin would be very helpful for Taiwanese people who want to teach Chinese abroad. I also said it would be helpful for people who wanted to help language exchange partners from just about anywhere.
“On September 17, 2008, the Ministry of Education announced that the government standard for romanization will be switched to Hanyu Pinyin nationwide, effective January 1, 2009. Individuals will retain the choice of what spellings to use for their names. This effectively scraps Tongyong Pinyin as the ROC’s standard.”