@KeithZhao,
You’re right, it would be nice if there were fresh ideas, like to actually STOP THESE DAILY PRACTICES in China. That would be revolutionary thinking, instead of a whole army of apologists saying, “ignore the crimes”. There is no loss of face in self improvement. Most Americans and Taiwanese criticize their own governments all the time, I have yet to see a majority of Chinese in China or the USA ever criticize their own government.
Perhaps the people behind AC Dropout and CCTang have been replaced by less literate people, because they didn’t realize its a TOP REASONS LIST not a “Size Fight”. Big size and big numbers is such a popular concept with the CCP; world’s biggest 180 hole golf course, the biggest dam on the planet, largest mall in the world… to make up for something. This is despite that the golf course is shoddy, the biggest dam is ugly and a risk to Shanghai, the largest mall in the world is devoid of buyers.
As pointed out there were many other reasons for “Taiwan to Unify” like the fact that China’s sex slave industry is not only relatively public, the number of sex slaves far outnumber the “Comfort Women of WW2” which seems totally hypocritical. Then there is the massive environmental damage caused by China that has been negating progress and growth, in some regions the sun is always behind a hazy blurry cloud the entire year.
But as pointed out by AC and CCTang themselves, Taiwan has done nothing near the horrible crimes the CCP commits on a daily basis.
In the end Vorkosigan is absolutely right, arguing circles around these two isn’t going to help, they will never change their opinions, but its not aimed at them, but the regular audience. There is nothing to be gained by taking away AC Dropout and CCTang’s teddy bear of 19th century murder and nationalism.
Nationalism is an outdated 19th century concept. Modern civilized peoples despise racism - and that is exactly what nationalism is, racism pure and simple - it is a relic of dinosaur thinking. Modernization and education and the realization that we are all global citizens that share the same world, eventually shall eliminate your Yugoslavian tribalism. The world’s future exists in post-immigrant societies such as North America and Brazil. When 1000 ethnicities and races all exist as one, as we really do have in certain places in the Americas, and increasingly Western Europe, is the only way forward for humanity.
The best thing that could ever happen to China is for 100 million Africans to descend upon China and interbreed with your daughters. That would just horrify you, wouldn’t it? Don’t deny that Asia is a horribly racist place and blacks are treated like dogs. We the Forumosans have lived here for too many years for deniability to have plausibility. Anyway, a genetic infusion of non-Chinese peoples would reverse 5,000 years of xenophobia and inbreeding.
The Europeans almost drove themselves into extinction in the 20th century, fighting two monstrous World Wars, out of Nationalism. Is that what you want for Asia? You want to start WWIII with Taiwan for sheer nationalism? This is not 1914 and this is not Alsace-Lorraine. Get with the 21st century.
Seems to me you’re the one with a rather perverse view of human race relations. “100 million Africans to descend upon China and interbreed with my daughters?” Rather dark place, your mind is.
I have a daughter, and if she chooses to marry an “African”… as long as he likes Chinese cuisine, as long as he values family and education, I’d wish her all the best. For that matter, I’d prefer that to someone who may be ethnic Chinese but knows pathetically little about his heritage and the world at large.
Whether nationalism exists in the 21st century isn’t your call, nor is it mine. I’m not god, and certainly neither are you. We’re all just individual human beings, living within the larger trends of the world around us. My belief in nationalism isn’t a pursuit of ideology, it’s a simple observation that yes, even in the 21st century, nations do compete, and that our interests can only be preserved when the society to which we “belong” is strong and successful.
PS. There are numerous Africans who speak excellent Chinese. For example, if my daughter… in 20 years or so… wanted to marry someone like this Liberian guy, I’d be thrilled: youtube.com/watch?v=JLu6AmHqbe8
You don’t need to put that in quotes. Africa is a real place with real people.
My point is that China needs an infusion of non-Chinese culture if it wants to survive as a dynamic civilization. History shows that civilizations that reject outside influences stagnate into lethargy. Why do you think that North America is 10x more dynamic and successful than China, despite China have 10x the population? Because people in the U.S. are all bastards. Mutants. Mutts. Interbred from all the refugees of all corners of the world. I am very proud of being an mutant, mix-bred, mutt. Hybrid vigor. That’s what you inbred Chinese need. All the world outside of Chinese nods their heads in agreement. (You don’t need it half as much as the genuinely inbred Koreans and Japanese need, though - lucky you.)
And I noticed you dodged my question about how Chinese view the “blacks”. Yes, I know, you’re exactly like Southerners in the the 1950s and Brazilians circa 1888. I’ve been in Taiwan way too long to not acknowledge the racial realities here. I am “white” officially (whatever that means) but I have quite a few “black” friends here who have taken way too much shit from your Chinese compratiots for comfort.
So here is where I will actually agree and betray Taiwan for you: if it is indeeed true that the mainland Chinese are genuinely non-racist, and treat brown & black people exactly the same as they treat yellow & white people, then I will fight on the side of China against Taiwan. Because Taiwan is a country of total racist bastards, truly evil. I have had several non-Chinese girlfriends, from the “brown” people countries south of Taiwan, and Taiwanese treat them like DOGS. I hate the Taiwanese for that reason. So, just make me this promise, that if China takes over, China will treat non-Chinese like genuine human beings, and not like slaves, and I will totally be on the side of China to destroy Taiwan.
You were obviously referring to all people of black skin as “Africans”. Maybe you believe I should refer to you as being “European” on the basis of your skin color, but I do know some “African” friends who are sensitive to the suggestion.
That was your point? Totally escapes me. Re-reading your post again, I have absolutely no idea how that was the point. It sounded to me like you were calling out nationalism as racism and refused to believe in and of itself.
Let me clear something up for you: nationalism has nothing to do with rejecting outside cultural values. If you took even a cursory look at the history of Chinese nationalism, you’d understand that. All (and I stress ALL) of the core players who drove the Chinese republican revolution and created modern Chinese nationalism had a goal of bringing Western philosophies and social values to China. The history of both Communism and Nationalism are European, and I hope everyone realizes that both Sun Yatsen and Madame Chiang Kai-shek could potentially be referred to as “Chinese-Americans”.
I agree: civilizations that reject outside influences stagnate into lethargy. And fortunately, there’s not a single Chinese nationalist out there that can say with a straight face he/she is seeking an outsider-free Chinese civilization.
“North America”? Don’t you mean the United States and Canada, or are you including Mexico, the Caribbean, and other Central American nations within that category?
Now… why are the United States and Canada successful? My theory is it’s because European colonizers exterminated 98% of the indiginous population, imported chattel slaves, and ended up with some of the most fertile land imaginable for economic and agricultural expansion. If you gave the Chinese an opportunity to take over the territory that the United States “bought” (no self-determination there) under the Louisiana Purchase, and allowed us to exterminate 98% of the population currently present on those lands (or maybe we’ll just move them into “reservations”)… I promise you, the Chinese economy will blossom for centuries to come.
The United States has also been very fortunate due to its geographic isolation in the New World to have never fought a serious land war within her borders. WWI, WWII… loss of a few hundred thousand men doesn’t compare to the losses suffered by Europeans and Asians during the same period. The United States happened to end up on the winning side in both wars, translating into a huge economic gain at minimal cost.
But really, this is a very different discussion.
You asked a question about how Chinese view blacks? I didn’t dodge it, I absolutely don’t see it. You asked me how I viewed blacks, and I gave you my answer.
I’d say that uneducated peasant Chinese are indeed racist… just as many are also sexist, prone to spitting on the floor, and other behavior. I’m happy to say that most Chinese understand all of those are flaws which can only be eliminated with time and education, and that none of those feelings will exist in the China we’re seeking to build.
You believe China is equivalent to “Southerners in the 1950s”? I’ve partied extensively in Beijing nightclubs with blacks. I watched one of those typical TV mini-series a few years ago, which featured a Chinese woman married and moving to Africa. I hear that when Richard Nixon visited China in the early '70s, the first American served at dinner was (intentionally) a black secret service agent… believing that he was probably being oppressed by the white man.
[quote=“cctang”]
I’d suggest you do a search on all posts made by CCTang over the past two years. Read them carefully. I’m not afraid of talking about the subject, but I tire of repeating myself in detail to you when none of it will register. I think others on this site are very aware of the reasons.
But I guess I can help you out by at least summarizing:
Taiwan’s current economic prosperity will dissipate quickly if it’s economy is separated from that of mainland China,[/quote]
Taiwan is much better off as an independent member of the international community with the full WTO rights it is ALREADY entitled to.
Why is political union vital for this. Are the Chinese so childish that they will only do what is in their own best interests if the Taiwanese surrender their legal rights to self-determination?
China’s growth is NOT sustainable, and unfortuantely, their unsustainable development is going to drag the rest of the region down the pit of pollution and duststorms down with it.
[quote]
The vast majority of 1.3 billion Chinese consider Taiwan as Chinese territory, and rejecting this claim can be hazardous to Taiwan’s physical health.[/quote]
What, because the Chinese are brainwashed and have the mentality of children when it comes to the right of Taiwanese to determine their own future.
I am a Red Sox fan, so this argument doesn’t do anything for me.
I agree with this, but why is political union required for this outside of the childish mentality of the Chinese people on this topic?
Again, why is political union required for this?
Once Taiwan is absorbed into China, I have absolutely no trust in its sincerity in allowing Taiwan to keep its freedom, democratic system, and social freedoms without an overarching control from Beijing. Their record in Hong Kong is NOT encouraging.
You are totally wrong about North America. In fact, the most fertile areas of the Americas and richest up until a century or two ago, were Brazil, Mexico, Argentina…that’s where the gold was. South America was richer for plunder, but North America succeeded despite its inhospitable disadvantages. I’d like to go into this topic further, but it is indeed off-topic.
And, um, the U.S. did fight a serious land war within her borders…it was called the Civil War, which lost over 600,000 of the population, as well as the destruction of much of Georgia, Virginia, Louisiana, and several other states. And unlike your Chinese and European wars, it was fought for a noble cause - the abolition of slavery. Which still goes on in China today - slavery, that is. Nobody in my family ever owned a slave. Can you say the same for your long, illustrious Chinese family that’s been around for 5,000 years? Can you say the same for members of the CCP today? No slaves in China?
Well you can only own a slave if you have two heads, which makes the slave owners easier to spot. You should go to China sometime, Quentin, it’s really a most interesting place.
I’m wrong about North America versus South America? Explain this to me then. Your theory less than two posts ago (shortly after your theory that racism = nationalism) is that North America succeeded because it was multi-cultural. Is South America really less multi-cultural than North America? Do you want to analyze that in any detail?
As far as mineral wealth: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_North_America More than any other area in the world, North America produces the most metals and minerals used by man. Thus this makes Canada, the United States, and Mexico some of the richest regions in the earth.[1][8] [9].
18% of the land in the United States is arable. Less than 10% of South America is arable. Brazil, Mexico, and Argentina were also clearly less effective in eliminating their native population. The United States government made no pretense of integrating or converting native populations; they weren’t part of the image. The Catholic Spaniards/Portugese made an attempt to save their local population.
So, you’ve proven you know as little about American history as you do world history. Do you know what Abraham Lincoln gives as his reason for fighting the Civil War? Go look it up, educate yourself.
Uh, is this somehow similar to your theory that “Africans” sit in the back of the bus? I can only imagine this is a bizarrely phrased and ineffective political diatribe …
… but what happened to supporting China in our reunification war if we didn’t treat blacks like “southerners in the 1950s”? (That is, like your fellow American citizens less than a half century ago.) Did you enjoy Hao Ge’s performance?
Uhm, what the f*ck are Shrimp, cctang, and myself. Seems like we represent a whole lot of US culture in our minds to participate in this forum. How we bring our acculturation back to the ROC or PRC is a whole other issue.
But I think your looking at a segment of the future Chinese, who will have a pretty large stake in the development of ROC and PRC relationships.
I think you mistaken the fact of why Hans look a like. It’s because we are already mutts of the various tribes that make up the Mainland. We don’t segregate in the same why White and Blacks do in the US. More like the early British we interbred with whatever group came along. There are many “foreigners” with Chinese spouses on this board can attest to how accomdating the Chinese can be.
Sorry that you feel entitled. I’ve taken a lot of shit from people of every background. Your point being. But effective people have figured out that its all about meritocracy and ability that determines how society will treat you.
But enough of the life lessons.
I think you simplify American history. US success was because it waged wars to dominate Central & South America. This uses diplomacy to gouge money from it allies. It allows for immigrants to drive its R&D and it allows illegal immigrants to keep the food cost low. Not to mention there was a huge development in the country based on slave labor.
You forgot to mention the US civil war “slavery” was a secondary populous issue. The primary issue was economics of the slave trade and resulting agriculture industry. Not to mention the division of power with the government due to representation of slave and non-slave states.
Wasn’t there in the news of a Long Island family that just got busted for slavery of 2 indonesian maids? So I mean some Americans feel the need to return to that economic model.
Ludaihai,
It may not be required base on how one interprets “China.”
I think a fairer question is why is “Taiwanese Independence” required in ROC?
cctang: WHAT reunification? Reunification of which two previously conjoined countries? Taiwan and the People’s Republic of China have NEVER been together as one country, so HOW can they be REunited?
Taiwan as a territory was cut off the Empire of China more than 100 years ago. The Empire collapsed, to be replaced by the Republic of China, which was never in control of Taiwan. the Republic of China later fell to the Communists, who installed the People’s Republic of China in its place… still no ownership of Taiwan demonstrated there. The Republic of China occupied the non-aligned territory of Taiwan, at the time when its jurisdiction over China lapsed… no claim possible there either from the PRC over Taiwan.
The only reason that PRC has been trying to steal Taiwan since then is to spit in the eye of CKS and his followers and dynastic descendents, and to avenge the removal of all the gold and cultural artifacts (which fortunately survived the despicable depradations of the Cultural Revolution by virtue of being held in safe custody for future generations in the hills behind Taipei). By setting up the ‘recapture’ of Taiwan as a goal, the CCP leaders have built the spectre of shame should they fail entirely on their own, the stupid selfish idiots, and being stuck in that mindset, they cannot turn back and admit defeat. And now they get people like you, fed a lifetime of misinformation, to carry the brave fight forwards… Tally Ho! and Good Luck.
You acknowledge there is an ongoing political conflict between ROC and PRC.
Please enlighten me to how the “Taiwan Independence” position is more advantageous than the “ROC status quo” position when it come to seeking a political solution to the Strait Issue.
Besides being an interesting motivator for local politics in getting people to the poles. How does Taiwan Independence solve the Strait Issue and reduce tension with the PRC?
The only thing it doesn’t solve is the “loss of face” of the CCP/PLA, but that is something that they should be prepared, as they are the ones who made the bed. Either than that, except that the fact that many of my HK/China contacts think that Japan and the KMT “conquered” Taiwan, and therefore, Taiwan needs to be conquered back, I don’t see what else can the PRC citizen win with Taiwan. Will that make the fruits from Taiwan less fake in their market? Don’t really think so.
Umm, okay. Because China accepting Taiwan’s independance would immediately alleviate the cross Strait issue and free up considerable defence silliness. Free of the military issue, it would simply become a matter of trade, and lord knows Fujian is screaming for it.
Call it unification instead of reunification; for that matter, call it a really mean evil war of aggression. I don’t care.
Thanks. I don’t think we’ll really need the luck, but we’ll certainly carry the brave fight forwards.
You’re quite a bit wrong about the historical context of this. For example, I don’t think you’ve quite explained why the KMT and the CPC are actually cooperating today if our only purpose was to “spit in the eye” of CKS and his followers. This is the part, of course, where the standard theory gets a little more devious. The CCP are just using the KMT to conquer Taiwan, the KMT are just selfishly using the CCP to gain wealth and power, etc, etc.
There are quite a few that want to adopt that theory. It allows the recently arrived ex-pat to engage in self-satisfying delusion, and imagine that all interesting Taiwanese history happened in the few years they’ve been here. And the only requirement is to assume that the KMT and CCP are both stupid, corrupt, ignorant, and very much evil. Again, some find such a portrayal very satisfying to his own under-developed sense of morality and historical context.
The truth isn’t really any more complicated than this theory, but it’d require picking up a history book. It would also require you to accept the possibility that the KMT and CCP may be different, but not evil. For some, probably quite a challenging task… it’d mean you’d have to erase dogma and actually start with a clean slate. The CCP and the KMT, despite 7 decades of warfare, have an earlier shared root. That shared root is what remains and shapes cross-strait relations today.
I think it’s actually fair to say that Chinese have indeed been brainwashed, and I would say it’s even a relatively recent phenomenon… after all, if we were this passionate and committed to our nation 150 years ago, Chinese history wouldn’t have taken the track that it did. China from 1890 through 1950 very much resembled 21st century Iraq, a comparison that probably would never cross your simplistic, provincial little mind.
So, who brainwashed us? Who convinced us that our nation could only be made secure by our own struggles and sacrifices, and not through the generosity of others? Who reminded us that the world is a cruel, hostile place… and that our own security comes only from unity and modernization? Let me give you a hint: it wasn’t the CCP.
Umm, okay. Because China accepting Taiwan’s independance would immediately alleviate the cross Strait issue and free up considerable defence silliness. Free of the military issue, it would simply become a matter of trade, and lord knows Fujian is screaming for it.
Next question.
HG[/quote]
Assuming ROC accept Taiwan’s Independence, and doesn’t end up in a silly civil war first.
What’s preventing PRC from abiding by their ASL once Taiwan declares independence first?
I like to glowing in the dark as the next raver. Not to mention I hear girls give it up easier when the end is near. Just to let people know that I see positive aspects to TI as well.
[quote=“cctang”]and that our own security comes only from unity and modernization? Let me give you a hint: it wasn’t the CCP.[/quote]Yeah but the ROC Ministry of Education has recently labeled him a foreigner. Does he still count?
Excellent! I just so happened to have some martial music (the three biggies and eight little points for consideration) playing as I read through this and I have to admit feeling a little light-headed and giddy myself. Now where can I go to top up this feeling?
That’s actually a pretty fair description, I’d definitely give you partial credit. China was basically devoid of universities, and Japan-educated Chinese played a huge role in the birth of Chinese nationalism. Be it Sun Zhongshan or Lu Xun… Japan’s role in the birth of nationalism in China (and I’d even say Korea) can’t be denied. I’ll give you extra credit for linking a picture of 红色娘子军.
As far as the rest of the world (excluding those indulging in diplomatic-speak) is concerned, the status quo IS that Taiwan is independent of China. That is great! Keep the status quo going then, and perhaps just acknowledge it more formally. What is the problem woith that?
And i notice that you did not actually disagree with the historical veracity of what i pointed out, just took the KMT and the CCP (as they currently stand) to task for their recent cronyisms. I feel that’s ridiculous too, so maybe we have more in common than you like to admit.
