I have been very sensitive regarding any comments made about US foreign policy or have overreacted to statements in the French and German threads as well. Right.
That said, why is the Muslim thread in the flame forum and not the French, German or US foreign policy ones? Hmmm. THAT is my point. Criticize away but leave the floor open.
Yeah. Hakkasonic. I have a persecution complex. You have me figured out. So you will be better able to help me with my complexes you will vote that the next thread to discuss Muslims does not get consigned to the flame forum so that concerned individuals such as yourself will be better able to help me with my neuroses. That should be fun. Finally, if the Muslim thread was consigned to the flame forum it was more to do with your newfound friend’s comments (oh yeah, he was only quoting someone else) that the “Only good Muslim is a dead Muslim.” I see that your concern for right sounding sentences has apparently not been applied to his far more eggregious remarks. Strange that, huh? Or maybe he was only “joking” right Hakkasonic? Right? Sorta like that guy who always goes to your bar and is always making jokes about Blacks, right?
Finally, notice that despite our vociferous attempt to “shut” voices of concerned posters such as yourself and Ishmael up, that the Israel Palestine thread remains in the Open Forum. Yeah, I have a persecution complex all right. I’d better seek help.
Will have to get back to you on this in a few weeks though. I am off to Lebanon, Syria, Oman, UAE, Qatar, Bahrain and possily Yemen for the next few weeks. I will keep your comments in mind while I am there making my racist unfeeling unfair comments with my Arab friends over tea and cigarettes. Funny that, they don’t seem to mind my comments about the Muslims half as much as people like you do Hakkasonic, but I will be sure and let them know how busy you have been “protecting” them, helpless, weak, vulnerable, sensitive individuals that they are. HAH!
I have been very sensitive regarding any comments made about US foreign policy or have overreacted to statements in the French and German threads as well. Right.
That said, why is the Muslim thread in the flame forum and not the French, German or US foreign policy ones? Hmmm. THAT is my point. Criticize away but leave the floor open.
Yeah. Hakkasonic. I have a persecution complex. You have me figured out. So you will be better able to help me with my complexes you will vote that the next thread to discuss Muslims does not get consigned to the flame forum so that concerned individuals such as yourself will be better able to help me with my neuroses. That should be fun. Finally, if the Muslim thread was consigned to the flame forum it was more to do with your newfound friend’s comments (oh yeah, he was only quoting someone else) that the “Only good Muslim is a dead Muslim.” I see that your concern for right sounding sentences has apparently not been applied to his far more eggregious remarks. Strange that, huh? Or maybe he was only “joking” right Hakkasonic? Right? Sorta like that guy who always goes to your bar and is always making jokes about Blacks, right?
Finally, notice that despite our vociferous attempt to “shut” voices of concerned posters such as yourself and Ishmael up, that the Israel Palestine thread remains in the Open Forum. Yeah, I have a persecution complex all right. I’d better seek help.
Will have to get back to you on this in a few weeks though. I am off to Lebanon, Syria, Oman, UAE, Qatar, Bahrain and possily Yemen for the next few weeks. I will keep your comments in mind while I am there making my racist unfeeling unfair comments with my Arab friends over tea and cigarettes. Funny that, they don’t seem to mind my comments about the Muslims half as much as people like you do Hakkasonic, but I will be sure and let them know how busy you have been “protecting” them, helpless, weak, vulnerable, sensitive individuals that they are. HAH![/quote]
Beautiful: Fred by his very posting proving my posting about, what else, Fred. It’s all about Fred!
It’s all about Fred.
It’s all about Fred.
From A to Zed,
From toe to head.
It’s all about Fred.
I wrote it once and I will write it again: Poor Fred. But do have a jolly good time in the Middle East.
I have no idea where you are coming from but I will allow the other readers to disagree or agree with your views if they feel that I am somehow being inconsistent. Fair? Put it to a vote? Or go back and quote me and show me where my views are inconsistent.
In the meantime, I remain
Yours Truly
Poor, Poor Fred
(and I will be after I get the bill for this little Middle Eastern jaunt har har)
I have no idea where you are coming from but I will allow the other readers to disagree or agree with your views if they feel that I am somehow being inconsistent. Fair? Put it to a vote? Or go back and quote me and show me where my views are inconsistent.
In the meantime, I remain
Yours Truly
Poor, Poor Fred
(and I will be after I get the bill for this little Middle Eastern jaunt har har)[/quote]
Poor Fred, once again telling other people what to do, trying to dictate the terms, trying to make it all about Fred:
Old Sport HS
Hate what you wrote
If you don’t mind
Let’s make `em vote
Lame evidence (I claim!)
Makes my eyes roll
But still I want
my shoddy poll
Because with you
I’m up with fed
Everyone knows
It’s all about Fred.
Pleasure. Why would I post it if I was doing it for the agency? That is, er, I mean if I was working for the agency. haha
Second, what do you think of Hakkasonic’s claims? Do you think that I am inconsistent? Just curious. Criticize away. I may not like it but I won’t try to get it put in the flame forum.
What is it? Is this some kind of a class thing? Old Sport? Sorry, I went to a good university and my parents weren’t peasants. Guess we can throw out any validity any comments I might make will have. Right old boy? old chap?
I’ve said it bofore, and I’ll say it again now… its easier to take pot shots and attempt to be clever than it is to state reasoned opinions supported by facts and or observation.
What is it? Is this some kind of a class thing? Old Sport? Sorry, I went to a good university and my parents weren’t peasants. Guess we can throw out any validity any comments I might make will have. Right old boy? old chap?
freddy (poor poor poor)[/quote]
Fred, again, this is what I mean, you take some comment, interpret it to mean something that isn’t entirely evident from the content, and then use that interpretation to launch into an attack or extremely sensitive defense of yourself. Once again, it turns into an accusation that someone is trying to discredit all of your views. Fred: “I’m being persecuted!”
I simply wrote “old sport” because I re-read The Great Gatsby last week.
Actually I don’t. I think your a shit stirrer to be sure but not inconsistent. I notice that occcasionally you’ll shift your stance somewhat and at times incredbly generous in your attempts to keep debates moving. I guess this could be construed as inconsistent . . but not in the manner HakkaS is suggesting.
Fred, I originally wrote that you are quick to accuse other people of being politically correct, of trying to shut people up, etc. Then you asked me to give you an example. I think that your over-reaction to my use of the phrase “old sport” is an example. But rather than give me some credit, you just clammed up. At least admit that I’ve got a good example!
Yes, that’s a great example and I have now learned that this debate is not all about ME and will correct the error of my ways. Therefore unless we want to start a thread about Fred Smith, can we go back to 9-11? Just a suggestion. Agreed?
Yes, that’s a great example and I have now learned that this debate is not all about ME and will correct the error of my ways. Therefore unless we want to start a thread about Fred Smith, can we go back to 9-11? Just a suggestion. Agreed?
freddy[/quote]
Okay. But first I’m going to 7-11.
One thing about 9-11: I think the fact that people from every corner of the world were killed in the attacks on the World Trade Center gets too often lost in discussions of that day.
HS.
PS. Fred, didn’t you like my poems even a little bit?
I don’t think so. Much was and is still made of the fact that people from many nations were killed or injured in the 911 WTC attack. I’m not certain of your point… but if you mean that the world, or at least the nations that had their nationals killed in the 911 WTC attacks, should have a right to say how the US reacts in self defense, I disagree. Is that what you mean? I don’t want to misunderstand your meaning.
Grudgingly, I must admit that your 711 comment was funny and I guess the poems were funny too… all right they were funny. Damn! Now how will I ever be able to face off with you again if I concede that point to you now?
I agree with Tigerman to a certain extent. Much is constantly made of the number of victims from countries a to z. It is after all in the interests of the US to make this as much an attack on the world as itself. That said, who else but the US has the military ability to end this once and for all?
I don’t think so. Much was and is still made of the fact that people from many nations were killed or injured in the 911 WTC attack. I’m not certain of your point… but if you mean that the world, or at least the nations that had their nationals killed in the 911 WTC attacks, should have a right to say how the US reacts in self defense, I disagree. Is that what you mean? I don’t want to misunderstand your meaning.[/quote]
No, that’s not what I mean.
What I meant by “lost” is that, yes, people point out that citizens from many countries were killed, but then discussions devolve into whether the U.S. is good or bad, whether it deserved to be attacked or not, etc. Tigerman, I’m not talking about what I read in the New York Times or hear on the BBC, etc. I should have made it clearer that when I wrote my last message, I was thinking about what I’ve seen and heard from people around me, whether it’s my co-workers or a table of guys at the bar. And I would have, too, had I not been in a rush to get to 7-11 for some caffeine.
Yes, I’ve heard of an analogy. Have you heard of the difference between apt and inapt analogies? Comparing colonial Americans under the British to Persians under the Arabs is an example of the latter, when the point being discussed is scientific achievements. No one disputes Britain’s important cultural contributions to the early United States. The U.S. would not be the U.S. today were it not for the Scottish Enlightenment (David Hume, Frances Hutchinson, Adam Smith, etc.). No one pretends that the intellectual traffic at that stage was an equal two-way street. With the exception of Benjamin Franklin, I can’t think of anyone else in the U.S. who could be compared to the best scientific minds in Europe at that time. Not until after WW2, did the U.S. even develop an indigenous scientific foundation that compared with Europe’s. And when it did so, it was with many displaced Europeans.
Persia, however, did not spring out of Arabia in the way the United States can be said to have been brought to life under the British. Persian culture was already impressive and a millenium-old when it was conquered by the Arabs. Persia was also closer than Arabia to India. Both facts might be significant in explaining why so many non-Arab scientists (mostly Persians) were able to make more out of what were translated Arabic scientific texts than the Arabs were.
As to your comparison with Macedonia, I’m not sure what your point is. I didn’t see any possible comparison with medieval Persia and Arabia, but why don’t you explain your one-line analogy rather than leave me to guess what it is.
Again, I’m not interested in debating the significance of the Macedonian analogy until you further explain your point. On its face, the analogy seems as silly as your analogy referring to Washington (colonial America), but I’m not going to play some game where I have to guess what you really meant.
As for the Arabs and Persians, Bernard Lewis is one authority. In his book The Middle East: A Brief History of the Last 2,000 Years, he speaks of the translation of Greek into Arabic texts being done mainly by non-Arab Christians, Jews, and Sabians. More to the point, Lewis also mentions that many non-Arabs used their linguistic skills to access those texts in the same way various European scholars would later use Latin to access the similar texts. Albert Hourani says much the same thing in his A History of the Arab Peoples. In many cases, Greek texts were first translated to Syriac and then to Arabic because of the non-Arab and non-Muslim origins of the translators. Hourani also emphasizes that it was the Arab empire’s ability to blend elements from the Greek, Persian, and Hindu traditions that allowed science to flourish. For something a little more convenient, here’s an essay called “The Transmission of Knowledge: A case study: the Arab acquisition of Greek science”. It’s not particularly good but it mentions the problem I brought up at the beginning of this debate. First, read the note at the top and then this section near the beginning of the essay:
Although the culture and learning of the 'Umayyad and 'Abbasid caliphates will be described throughout this essay as Arab or Arabic, few of the scholars who will be mentioned were actually Arabic Muslims. It is nevertheless appropriate to refer to Greek science being passed to the Arabs; Arab rulers of Arab states founded on the strength of Arab armies funded and patronised the transmission process.
Unfortunately, too many people perceive the entire process as an Arab venture. If you want to credit the Arabs, credit them for building an empire and sponsoring a lingua franca that allowed several world cultures to blend their knowledge into one tongue.
Let’s also look at the scientists in Islamic lands at that time and determine their ethnicity. I have picked this site, which has a list of scientists at the bottom of the page. (Given the nature of the site, if there’s a slant, it should be towards highlighting Muslim scientists, rather than Christian or Jewish scientists living in Muslims lands.); I then did a quick web search to find the place of birth and the language they were brought up in to determine each scientist’s ethnicity. This is not as easy as it sounds. I eliminated anyone on the list who was a mystic, historian, poet, famous traveler, or any other vocation that wouldn’t fit with most people’s idea of science or applied science today.
Jabir Ibn Haiyan (D. 803) – Chemistry – Arab
Al-Asmai (740-828) – Zoology, Botany – Arab
Al-Khwarizmi (780-850) – Math, Astronomy – Unclear (Probably born in Central Asia, but possibly Arab)
'Amr Ibn Bahr (776-868) – Zoology – Arab
Ibn Ishaq Al-Kindi (800-873) – Mathematics, Medicine – Arab
Thabit Ibn Qurrah (826-901) – Astronomy, Mathematics – Greek Sabian
Ali Ibn Rabban (838-870) – Medicine, Math – Jewish Persian (later embraced Islam)
Al-Battani (858-929) – Astronomy – Sabian (born in Harran; embraced Islam)
Al-Farghani (860-?) – Engineer – Persian
Al-Razi (864-930) – Medicine, et al. – Persian
Al-Farabi (870-950) – Logic, Philosophy – Persian (born in Turkestan)
Al-Sufi (903-986) – Astronomy – Persian
Abu Al-Qasim Al-Zahravi (936-1013) – Surgery, Medicine – Arab
Muhammad Al-Buzjani (940-998) – Mathematics – Persian
Ibn Al-Haitham (965-1040) – Mathematics, Physics – Arab
Abu Raihan Al-Biruni (973-1048) – Astronomy, Mathematics – Probably born to a Turkish tribe in what is present-day Uzbekistan, but possibly Persian.
Ibn Sina (Avicenna) (980-1037) – Medicine, Philosophy – Probably Persian, but possibly an Uzbek like Al-Biruni.
Al-Zarqali – (1028-1087) – Astronomy – Spanish Arab
Omar Al-Khayyam (1044-1123) – Mathematics – Persian
***** The Great Andalusian Scientists *****
Abu-Bakr Muhammad Ibn Yahya (1106-1138) – Medicine, Mathematics – Spanish Arab
Ibn Zuhr (1091-1161) – Surgery, Medicine – Unclear (Spanish Arab? Jew?)
Al-Idrisi (1099-1166) – Geography, Botany – Spanish Arab? (It’s unclear, but Arab biographers apparently believe him to be a renegade who fled to Sicily and allied himself with a Christian king.)
Ibn Rushd (Averroes) (1128-1198) – Philosophy, et al. – Spanish Arab
Al-Bitruji (?-1204) – Astronomy – Spanish Arab
Ibn Al-Baitar (1136-1248) – Botany – Spanish Arab
Nasir Al-Din Al-Tusi (1201-1274) – Astronomy – Persian
Ibn Al-Nafis Damishqui (1213-1288) – Medicine – Arab
Al-Fida (1273-1331) – Astronomy – Arab
Ulugh Beg (1393-1449) – Astronomy – Turk
Total:
Arabs – 8
Persians – 8 (including at least one Jew)
Sabians – 2 (including at least one Sabian who used Greek)
Uzbek – 1
Turk – 1
Spanish Arab – 6 (includes at least two unclear cases)*
Unclear – 2
I have separated out the Spanish Arabs from other Arabs because of the difficulty of telling Jews from Muslims in that part of the world at that time. Islam-controlled Spain was famous for its numerous and wealthy Jews. At least two of the scientists from that region that I counted were believed to be Jews, but I didn’t have enough information to come down on one side or the other.
In all honesty, the Arabs have more scientists here than I remember from my reading on the history of science. But keep in mind the source I used and the murky situation with some of the Andalusian scientists. Even so, the Arabs and non-Arabs are about even in their scientific scholarship by this count. It’s not rock-hard research, but it gives an indication that my argument rests on more than just wanting to take a poke at “sand niggas”.
Please. Enough with your skitterish explanations. Since when is a one-line analogy that uses “whinging pom” and a roll of the eyes some sort of appropriate argument to my serious points? If you want to debate, then debate. If you want to trade insults, then I can do that too. Don’t come crying to me now about how you really had something serious in mind with that flip response.
The restaint has gone both ways. Hardly a day goes by that I don’t see some outrageous claim or article reported in the European press or, more recently, posted by a European here at Forumosa. The dust from the Twin Towers hadn’t even settled when European commentators were beating each other up to be the first to say the U.S. deserved it or, even worse, that the U.S. did it to itself.
Frankly, I am sick and tired of listening to Europeans whine about how much it takes out of them to put up with us Americans. I’m tired of hearing about it about the long line of crimes we have committed to keep you Europeans comfy and safe in your beds. If you don’t want us, then the solution is very easy: kick us out of Europe and take care of your own fucking problems. You can deal with problems in Eastern Europe, You can deal with the problems in the Middle East. And you can deal with the Russians should they decide that Eastern Europe looks mighty tempting with the U.S. no longer in the picture. I would be so happy to hand the whole kit and caboodle over to Europe and watch you pay for your own defense, and seeing it bust your budgets even more so than they are now.
You want to praise the Arabs for their cultural achievements that were nothing more than the achievements of building an empire, but you don’t want to give any credit to America for building a soft empire that has enriched the lives (materially and culturally) of those who are fortunate enough to be a part of it far more than the Arabs would have ever dreamed.
For two reasons: first, the U.S., not Europe, is the prime target for Islamists. Europe may get hit by an attack and Europeans will be attacked if they show their white faces in some hot spots around the globe, but it the U.S. and Americans who are target number one. If the terrorists ever get their hand on something truly awful, don’t tell me that they will try to send it to London or Paris. Please tell me, Huang, who in Europe has had a couple thousand of their citizens taken out by terrorists in one sitting? How many years of IRA attacks did it take to accomplish as the number of civilians deaths that happened to us in a couple of hours?
Second, the U.S. is primarily responsible for security in the Middle East, Europe and East Asia. Europe, on the other hand, cocooned in U.S. protection, can’t even provide security for itself let alone anyone else of significance. For this reason, Europeans often neglect military options in their thinking. The U.S., which still has to go out into the uncivilized parts of the world where military force is an option on both sides, does not.
Smith, why do you keep harping on “the only good Moslem is a dead Moslem” quote I posted? You imply that it is my “veiled” opinion too. I was relaying the sentiment of most beseiged Christians in rural Mindanao. BTW, I have a Moslem brother-in-law who is a pretty good guy.
Sorry just using it to point out some sensitivity “inconsistencies” in some of the other posters and I suppose that it was not really fair to use you as a battering ram but shall refrain from doing so again. Actually, I think that we agreed with each other to a large extent before and seem to have gotten off on the wrong foot because of a few casual missteps. I will not mention it again. Fair?
