Torture And Brave Neo-America

I’ve provided quotes from the official investigation regarding the MI group commanding officer’s suspected direct or indirect culpability and recommending that an official inquiry into his conduct be investigated. This hasn’t been done.

I’ve provided quotes from a respected alternate source, The Economist, noting that this recommendation was ignored.

My understanding also is that the Army would not allow Corp. Graner’s lawyer to have Col. Pappas testify at Graner’s trial.

Can somebody help me out here? Does anyone else here agree with Fred’s view of reality on this issue?

Cake,
Do you have any documentation supporting your assertion that Tattoo was responsible for torture? I mean, what exactly would he do anyway?His little bones must be rolling in their grave. :noway:
Tainan,
Yo mama jokes are an honored national institution. I’ve taught a few as an informal introduction to US ‘street’ culture. As an art form, it is difficult to master and demands great innovation. It derives from the Nigerian tradition of insulting people’s mothers while they are pounding yams, and I feel it should somehow be incorporated into our Christmas festivities. I’ve even been known to toss of a yo mama joke or two at weddings. In this context, however, the sentiment is understood. I will no longer make comments about Fred’s mother. :frowning:
There are several good Yo Mama websites, but some use quite stale ones. The only comparable art form worthy of similar merit might be pick-up lines. The only true measure of a pick-up line’s worth is whether you get slapped or not. I’ve only been slapped twice. :wink: [/quote]

[quote]I’ve provided quotes from the official investigation regarding the MI group commanding officer’s suspected direct or indirect culpability and recommending that an official inquiry into his conduct be investigated. This hasn’t been done.

I’ve provided quotes from a respected alternate source, The Economist, noting that this recommendation was ignored.

My understanding also is that the Army would not allow Corp. Graner’s lawyer to have Col. Pappas testify at Graner’s trial.

Can somebody help me out here? Does anyone else here agree with Fred’s view of reality on this issue?[/quote]

so it was suspected and investigated and in the process of the investigation the recommendation was ignored? Can you prove that or was it merely ruled upon. grand juries look at evidence and then determine if there is enough for a trial to proceed. Maybe there was no evidence. If there was, please show me. I would be happy to change my mind. Until then, give these soldiers the same rights that so many squeal about losing under the Patriot act. Ironic huh?

[quote=“spook”]My understanding also is that the Army would not allow Corp. Graner’s lawyer to have Col. Pappas testify at Graner’s trial.

Can somebody help me out here? Does anyone else here agree with Fred’s view of reality on this issue?[/quote]

If you’re talking about what happened after Taguba gave the report to McKiernan, I don’t think we’re going to find much on the Internet right now, if anywhere. Anyway, I must admit I’m biased. As a former enlisted man, it didn’t take too long for me to begin to think (about Abu Ghraib in general), “This looks like one of those ‘Blame the Junior Man’ deals.” In other words, I don’t need proof on that one; my mind was made up years ago. :laughing: But since blaming the junior person is not news to me, I can’t raise much of a sweat over it.

I sympathize, spook, in an “opposite-number” sort of way. On my side of things, I have my own hobby-horse, in that I believe that one day the US’s WMD allegations will be at least partially vindicated. But there’s not enough solid proof now.

Welcome to my world. :smiling_imp:

Some of this stuff, on both sides of the issue(s), may end up like the Kennedy assassination. I.e., maybe we’ll find out part of the truth when almost everybody involved is dead and nobody cares anymore. :idunno:

Fred wrote:

In the spirit of our soon to be promulgated new rules, I respectfully disagree. Actually, I must go further and suggest that you are willfully ignoring the evidence that is out there. Have you read any of the government’s own reports on what has happened? The Taguba or Schlesinger reports are clear that decisions in the Department of Defense under Rumfeld were responsible for the widepread ( not isolated at all) abuses that have occured over the last few years.

The Schlesinger report quite clearly implicates Rumsfeld, not as directly ordering torture (except for perhaps in two cases) but in going against decades of army traditional in loosening the definition of torture and for a time okaying a list of approved techniques (the infamous memos) that could be applied to top al Qaeda people in Guantanamo who were not protected by the Geneva Convention. The legality of these new techniques was never assured and after 6 weeks they were recalled by Rumsfeld. At least officially.

But the damage was already done. By now it is clear that the techniques and laissez faire attitudes “migrated” (those are the words of the reports) to Iraq and began to be used on prisoners there. General Miller as we all know, or should know if we are in this debate, was sent to “Gitmoize” the prisons in Iraq to get more actionable intelligence. In the face of conflicting rules for interrogation the harsher ones of course won out. Lists of new approved techniques “somehow” made there way around the theatre of war thus creating an atmosphere of ambiguity and confusion. Was this deliberate? It certainly wasn’t accidental as these techniques should never have been known outside of Guantanamo yet someone senior officers in Iraq were requesting them.

All reports suggest a cause and effect relationship between the administration loosening the definition on torture, approving harsh techniques that constitutes torture under any reasoable definition, and the widespread, WIDESPREAD, abuses that have happened in Iraq.

There were many who warned that altering the rules of interrogation that have been standardized over decades would have a “deleterious effect” on the military. Do you get that point. People who knew military culture well warned Rumsfeld not to change the rules even for Guantanamo and Al Qaeda or it would spread trouble. Once again, Rumsfeld ignored all prescient advice and went ahead. The result has been even worse than predicted.

For Christ sake, if even government sponsored probes cannot fail but implicate the Defense Department for their (albeit indirect) role in the abuses, if even government reports show that abuses are widespread and go up the chain of command, where do you come from still insisting they are isolated events, the result of a few bad apples?

BTW, please don’t bother responding unless you have read the reports or are about to. And summaries from the National Review don’t count.

They should never have been in prison. They should have simply beheaded the bastards and then broadcast videos throughout the Arab world. What’s good for the goose and all that…

If it takes ‘going Zarqawi’ to defend fundamental American values then so be it.

Hey, they started it. Seriously, what’s your suggestion? Invite them over to watch a Jimmy Stewart film festival and serve hot cocoa and cookies?

jimmy.org/

I do not see how discussing new rules in an academic way at the very top levels of the administration would “work its way down” to the very bottom tier of the infantry and thus be responsible for the torture which was actually mostly abuse.

Yes, I have read the bulk of the Taquba report and I still do not see that anything has been proven and for those who often claim to be so worried about unproven loss of rights under the Patriot Act, I am highly surprised that what I essentially hear is that soldiers or those serving in the Armed Forces should somehow lose theirs because it would help foster better relations with the Muslim and Arab world. I don’t see that this abuse has stirred the same levels of outrage in Iraq. And I find it highly ironic that al Jazeera has stirred righteous indignation in the Arab World about this (but then we all know what kind of stuff is being shoveled and so in fact do most of the Arabs).

I would like to once again remind people that like the ridiculous CNN interviews where they met the man or woman on the street in countries like Syria and Iraq about how they viewed the prospective invasion of Iraq that many of these respondents are not in fact “free” to say what they think and usually trot out the government line at least in public. I find it incredible that in Egypt where 10 men cannot “assemble” that we can still find “massive protests” and “demonstrations” against the US and certain US policies. Does any one remember the same types of mass events in Iran and the former Communist bloc? I really have to wonder how the media can continue to portray the US as being so hated in the Middle East. I just got back again from Bahrain and Dubai and let me tell you no on in the Gulf disagrees with US policy NOR do they miss having Saddam in the neighborhood. They like Eastern Europe were the most vulnerable.

Hey, they started it. Seriously, what’s your suggestion? Invite them over to watch a Jimmy Stewart film festival and serve hot cocoa and cookies?

jimmy.org/[/quote]

My suggestion? Stick to our principles. They’ve gotten us this far and even though it’s counter-intuitive at times they’re what makes us better – and more powerful – than the bad guys in the long run.

Aw, man, I gotta read that whole thing? :laughing:

But I thought the topic/s of the debate (i.e., the thread) was/were,

[quote=“as spook, the OP,”]

What has fundamentally changed about the world around us that requires us to abandon the high road of our forefathers and now start “to work . . . sort of the dark side”?

Are we facing a new, more vicious enemy unlike any the world has ever seen?
. . .

What has really changed that wasn’t true in 1776, 1812, 1846, 1861, 1917, 1941, 1950 or 1963?

What if, just for the sake of hypothesis, it’s not something fundamental about the world around us which has changed but we ourselves? What if we have somehow lost our way as a nation and now find ourselves wandering the low road of world affairs and just haven’t realized yet that we’ve lost our way as a nation and now have fundamentally different “objectives” than we had before?[/quote]

You know, a more liberal-artsy kinda thing. . . .

Edit: OK, I read the Taguba Report, and I can prove it: OIF CJTF-7 ITO FOB BCCF TACON OPCON METL SIRs AARs DFAC MWR JOA AR 190-8 I/R. See? I read it. One more report to go, then I can properly be in the debate. . . .

Aw, man, I gotta read that whole thing? :laughing:
[/quote]

Actually the Schlesinger report contains much that is irrevelant to the casual reader. You can get the gist of it in 30 minutes.

And it is a very different report from the Taguba report in that it focus was on why torture and abuse became so widespread, and little on the actual incidents of torture, unlike the Taguba report. You cannot read it and come away still believing in the bad apple theory.

People who know military culture disagree with you and made their warnings clear. Read the report.

However, concerning whether the MPs were actually (whether implicitly or explicitly) ordered to do what they did by members of the 205th Military Intelligence Brigade (which was technically in charge of Abu Ghraib), General Taguba didn’t give too much in the way of specifics in the report itself, and he didn’t say too much about Mr. John Israel and the other person, except that they should be investigated (maybe there’s more info in some appendix/ices). Additionally, there’s the implication in the report that the psychiatrist that the General used was a “bad apple” theorist. All that having been said, I believe the MPs involved were at least under the strong impression that they were doing what they did for military intelligence. In other words, I pretty much believe the MPs.

And the recruiter probably told them, “Only one weekend a month! Piece of cake!”

I will read the report.

Aw, man, I gotta read that whole thing? :laughing:

But I thought the topic/s of the debate (i.e., the thread) was/were,

What has fundamentally changed about the world around us that requires us to abandon the high road of our forefathers and now start “to work . . . sort of the dark side”?

Are we facing a new, more vicious enemy unlike any the world has ever seen?
. . .

What has really changed that wasn’t true in 1776, 1812, 1846, 1861, 1917, 1941, 1950 or 1963?
?[/quote]

Well, my suggestion to read the report does answer the question in one way. The report shows that many top military leaders, and the secretary or State, did not feel the necessity of changing the rules. In other words, the people experienced in fighting and interrogating the enemy did not feel that the world had changed enough to justify overturning decades of military law and practise.

Now surely we can say that the men in question are among the most patriotic of Americans, and those who take the notion of national security to heart since it is a life or death matter with them. If such men did not feel that harsher techniques were necessary then why does anyone want to side with the civilian leadership on this position? Especially a civilian leadership with as poor a track record as this one on predicting the outcome of events they have put it place.

My remark about the topic was just kidding, or if it wasn’t, I apologize. In fact, many of my posts are definitely not paragons of on-topic-ness.

Edit: One more thing, to spook, or anyone else:

If I were on the left, I’d be more interested in the civilians than anyone else (I find them intriguing):

[quote][SPC Sabrina Harman] stated: “. . . MI wanted to get them to talk. It is Grainer [(CPL? SGT?) Charles Graner] and [SSG Ivan L.] Frederick’s job to do things for MI and OGA [Other Governmental Agency/ies] to get these people to talk.”[/quote]–General Taguba’s Report, Findings and Recommendations, Part One, Finding No. 11

[quote]In letters and e-mails to family members, Frederick repeatedly noted that the military-intelligence teams, which included C.I.A. officers and linguists and interrogation specialists from private defense contractors, were the dominant force inside Abu Ghraib.[/quote]–Seymour M. Hersh, “Torture at Abu Ghraib”

[quote]In general, US civilian contract personnel (Titan Corporation, CACI, etc.), third country nationals, and local contractors do not appear to be properly supervised within the detention facility at Abu Ghraib. During our on-site inspection, they wandered about with too much unsupervised free access in the detainee area.[/quote]–General Taguba’s Report, Findings and Recommendations, Part Two, Finding No. 30
[He seems to be saying they walked around like they owned the place.]

[quote]I suspect that COL Thomas M. Pappas, LTC Steve L. Jordan, Mr. Steven Stephanowicz, and Mr. John Israel were either directly or indirectly responsible for the abuses at Abu Ghraib (BCCF) and strongly recommend immediate disciplinary action as described in the preceding paragraphs as well as the initiation of a Procedure 15 Inquiry [“Identifying, Investigating, and Reporting Questionable Activities”] to determine the full extent of their culpability.[/quote]–General Taguba’s Report, Recommendations as to Part Three of the Investigation, Recommendation No. 13

Just to bring things into a sharper focus.
Lets review what [i]real torture[/i], as was used by Saddam Hussein.

[quote]Iraq, A population Silenced <–clickable link to article
[color=red]Silence Through Torture[/color]

Under Saddam Hussein’s orders, the security apparatus in Iraq routinely and systematically tortures its citizens. Beatings, rape, breaking of limbs, and denial of food and water are commonplace in Iraqi detention centers. Saddam Hussein’s regime has also invented unique and horrific methods of torture including electric shocks to a male’s genitals, pulling out fingernails, suspending individuals from rotating ceiling fans, dripping acid on a victim’s skin, gouging out eyes, and burning victims with a hot iron or blowtorch.

Gwynne Roberts, a reporter for the London-based Independent, describes her experience in a torture center in northern Iraq:

In one cell pieces of human flesh

OK, I’ve finally started it–it’s 124 pages. But its “Executive Summary,” at page 5 (pdf page 7), seems to support the bad apple theory, calling the acts in question at Abu Ghraib “brutality and purposeless sadism.” It says further that the “pictured abuses . . . were not part of authorized interrogations nor were they even directed at intelligence targets.” Ibid. It concludes that “[t]here is no evidence of a policy of abuse promulgated by senior officials or military authorities,” while acknowledging that “[t]here is both institutional and personal responsibility at higher levels.” Ibid.

It does say, though, that the investigation-reviewing “Panel did not have full access to information involving the role of the Central Intelligence Agency in detention operations; this is an area the Panel believes needs further investigation and review.” At page 6 (pdf page 8). I think I’m fairly safe in saying that it may be that the CIA would not behave very co-operatively in such an investigation.

Again with the bad apple theory:
The report says that “[a]lthough the most egregious instances of detainee abuse were caused by the aberrant behavior of a limited number of soldiers,” failures of the relevant noncoms, along with failures of COs and their staffs, also contributed to the events in question. At page 43 (pdf page 46).

And again, “The Panel finds no evidence that organizations above the 800th MP Brigade- or the 205th MI Brigade-level were directly involved in the incidents at Abu Ghraib.” Ibid.

I’ve only read to page 43, but so far, to the extent that General Miller is characterized at all, he is suggestively depicted as merely an overzealous person, and almost everyone else is portrayed as being more or less dazed and confused, except for those sadistic bad apples. That’s the extent of it so far.

Well, back to my fascinating holiday reading.

A little warning to anyone who wants to read this thing: I don’t know the right computer terminology, but it’s apparently done in some kind of graphics format rather than a text format. In other words, at least as far as I can tell, I couldn’t use Adobe’s “Find” function, and I couldn’t cut and paste text using Adobe’s “Text Select Tool.” But who knows, maybe I’m just doing it wrong. I’m reading the copy at GlobalSecurity.org, which appears to be identical in format to the one at Findlaw.com.

One good thing about it: there’s lots of blank pages! :smiley:

One more thing:

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]Just to bring things into a sharper focus.
Lets review what [i]real torture[/i], as was used by Saddam Hussein.[/quote]

Yes, perspective is important in this matter–a perspective that involves Saddam’s regime on the one hand, and on the other hand, the realities of war, which include intense violence, intense pressure, mad confusion, and in the middle of all that, efforts to keep good order among large numbers of people. I suppose it’s kind of like trying to build a big, complicated chicken coop in the middle of a hurricane.

Superb article on this topic, from The New Yorker…

newyorker.com/printable/?fact/050214fa_fact6

Interesting article, DB. I had no idea about the Syrians.

Interesting that there is so much hype about Guantanamo in the press when lookee lookee at what passes for everyday policy in France… and surprisingly in Britain…

By Diane Wolff
Special to the Sentinel

February 13, 2005