Tourism in Taiwan

[quote=“Muzha Man”] In addition, I was told by the tourism board that the rail was set up more with tourism in mind than transport between cities…For people flying in to Taoyuan in the future they could bypass be there in no time. And avoid all the ugliness of going into Taoyuan or Taopei. Tourism will get a big boost when people can fly in and go directly to nice spots.

There’s a reason 5-star hotels are being built around Puli.

[/quote]

:laughing: :laughing: I’m sure there will be loads of Japanese tourists and jetsetters from other nations lining up to fly into Taiwan, jump on the HSR, and pay 6,000 to 10,000 NT per night for a basic “Taiwanese” 5-star room out in the boonies. If you build it, they will come…just clean up the dog shit and fix the air conditioners so the Japs stay more than two days this time (unlike with the program that was set up in some small town in Nantou).

Tourism will get a boost but a “big” boost? I don’t think so. Taiwan simply can not compete with Singapore, Indonesia, Thailand, Malaysia etc. when it comes to attracting foreigners to visit solely for tourism purposes.

On the other hand, will people visiting Taiwan on business utilize the HSR to visit certain attractions in the South? I’m not so sure. I think most business travellers are content to close their business deal in Taipei or Taoyuan, visit the National Museum or 101, get laid, visit Yangmingshan for a hot spring, and then fly home or to their next destination.

Business travel is all about convenience, and although the HSR makes the transportation component more hassle free, there are still plenty of hassles travelling in Taiwan outside of Taipei.

Perhaps Chinese tourists would but I don’t think US, Australian, Singaporean, Canadian, European etc. executives will.

i think you may be missing the focus. The attractions may NOT be built with japanese tourists in mind (taiwan already gets over a million of those a year). They may be built with CHINESE tourists in mind. EVen if they only come once in their lives…theres more then a BILLION of em who could come !! Pretty soon the major attractions in taiwan will have more chinese tourists then local people :slight_smile:

Taiwan is the last unopen destination to chinese tourists. And there is a great many who want to come and see “the enemy”

Wait till they let the mainlanders in, then you’ll see some tourists.

HG

Edit: Goddamit tommy525, you beat me to the draw. :laughing:

Just to add, I don’t think mainlanders are so keen on seeing the “enemy” so much as genuinely curious to see what a democratic China looks and feels like. Well that’s certainly the view among the middle class mainlander folks I work with.

HG

[quote=“tommy525”]i think you may be missing the focus. The attractions may NOT be built with japanese tourists in mind (taiwan already gets over a million of those a year). They may be built with CHINESE tourists in mind. EVen if they only come once in their lives…theres more then a BILLION of em who could come !! Pretty soon the major attractions in taiwan will have more chinese tourists then local people :slight_smile:

Taiwan is the last unopen destination to chinese tourists. And there is a great many who want to come and see “the enemy”[/quote]

And I think many Chinese tourists, especially the international ones from Shanghai and Beijing, will be shocked at the weak infrastructure and relatively high prices on the island for second-rate services and sights. In other words, what kind of “class” of Chinese tourist will visit Taiwan? I think many people from China’s emerging middle classes would rather go to many other global destinations before visiting Taiwan. I think it will be predominantly lower middle class tourists that will be the ones visiting Taiwan on the tours. And make no mistakes about it–these people are frugal, loud, and uncouth. Will they be the ones who will book HSR tickets and stay at ritzy resorts? Or will they be the “whisbih” type looking for discounts? Will the number of these tourists justify the high costs of the HSR, hotel development etc.? Curiousity may provide healthy numbers at the beginning, but it is good service, top-rate infrastructure, and interesting attractions that keep people returning.

I think the mainlanders are saavy shoppers. They won’t want to pay more than they have to for a second rate product.

IT is for this reason, that I also laughed my ass off when I heard the government wanted to market Taiwan’s hospitals to Overseas Chinese. Again, I think most Chinese in the PRC would rather go to HK or Singapore than Taiwan for these services.

My experience of mainland tourists has been rather better than that of encountering Taiwanese tourist groups overseas. I live in HK and see them almost daily. Group tours often stay in a hotel not 200 yards from where I tap now. And the infrastructure in Taiwan is a comfy doddle compared to the hinterland of China.

You do know there are daily flights from the likes of Xian direct to Koh Samui, right? There are oodles of slick mainland independent travellers in South East Asia now, even middle class kids backpacking. They know how to be on their best of behavior when out and about.

HG

[quote=“JAS”][quote=“tommy525”]i think you may be missing the focus. The attractions may NOT be built with japanese tourists in mind (taiwan already gets over a million of those a year). They may be built with CHINESE tourists in mind. EVen if they only come once in their lives…theres more then a BILLION of em who could come !! Pretty soon the major attractions in taiwan will have more chinese tourists then local people :slight_smile:

Taiwan is the last unopen destination to chinese tourists. And there is a great many who want to come and see “the enemy”[/quote]

And I think many Chinese tourists, especially the international ones from Shanghai and Beijing, will be shocked at the weak infrastructure and relatively high prices on the island for second-rate services and sights. In other words, what kind of “class” of Chinese tourist will visit Taiwan? I think many people from China’s emerging middle classes would rather go to many other global destinations before visiting Taiwan. I think it will be predominantly lower middle class tourists that will be the ones visiting Taiwan on the tours. And make no mistakes about it–these people are frugal, loud, and uncouth. Will they be the ones who will book HSR tickets and stay at ritzy resorts? Or will they be the “whisbih” type looking for discounts? Will the number of these tourists justify the high costs of the HSR, hotel development etc.? Curiousity may provide healthy numbers at the beginning, but it is good service, top-rate infrastructure, and interesting attractions that keep people returning.

I think the mainlanders are saavy shoppers. They won’t want to pay more than they have to for a second rate product.

IT is for this reason, that I also laughed my ass off when I heard the government wanted to market Taiwan’s hospitals to Overseas Chinese. Again, I think most Chinese in the PRC would rather go to HK or Singapore than Taiwan for these services.[/quote]

im sure a great many chinese will feel exactly as you have portrayed, but china has so many people that there will be plenty who will come to taiwan. You will agree that Singapore is a very developed “chinese” nation. And one of the top tourist destinations and one that Singaporeans keep coming back to is TAIWAN. And Taiwan is a top destination for HK people too. TAiwan is treasured for its “chinese culture” , its food and even the clothing styles of its young ladies by the singaporeans. China will have plenty of people interested in the other china. And yes, i was kidding bout the ENEMY. They will be very interested to see the country that they know of only from the TV and newspapers up front and personal.

Taiwanese singing stars and actors/ actresses have already for decades “invaded” china and become accepted over there. And many taiwanese entertainment tv programs are big in china too.

And Chinas populace have heard bout all the fights in the legislature here (and they applaud the ability to DO THAT) . pLUS thye have heard of the freedoms of the press in taiwan, etc, etc.

Taiwan is what china wants to be, so of course they will come to see. Chinese are used to Warts and imperfection. They have plenty of that over there.

[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]Wait till they let the mainlanders in, then you’ll see some tourists.

HG

Edit: Goddamit tommy525, you beat me to the draw. :laughing:

Just to add, I don’t think mainlanders are so keen on seeing the “enemy” so much as genuinely curious to see what a democratic China looks and feels like. Well that’s certainly the view among the middle class mainlander folks I work with.

HG[/quote]

:slight_smile: snicker snicker, blows the smoke off the pistol and puts it back in its holster.

yes, i was kidding bout “the enemy” . They will want to see for themselves the Taiwan they have heard of from the newspapers and TV. The “democracy” of the other china.

Agreed, And nice post. Put it much better than I did . . . ya bastard! :laughing:

HG

i think taiwan can definitely compete with the other asian nations for tourism. the govt. just needs to invest more in the tourist industry and marketing the way it does with its business industries like IT. taiwan has so much more to see than tiny singapore. singapore has a nice city skyline, harbor and malls. but what else does it have to see? it certainly doesnt have taiwan’s natural beauty like taroko gorge, sun moon lake, huge temples like fuo gong san, mountains, beaches, hualien, green island, etc. etc. etc. most people i spoke to who visited singapore find it ‘clean’ and ‘modern’ but utterly boring. i certainly dont have much of an interest in visiting singapore. i love to chew gum so i dont want to risk getting flogged. :laughing:

taiwan has so much more to offer. and i dont think it has weak infrastructure - it already has a world class clean, modern subway system, cross-island highways, and now high speed train. when i visited and did an island-wide tour, i was impressed with the freeway system which looked exacty like the modern freeways in the u.s. taiwan certainly has better, modern rest stops with CLEAN restrooms compared to the ones i’ve been to in the u.s. which are usually gas stations. if the govt. keeps up on these investments, it will realize taiwans great potential as a tourist attraction.

[quote=“JAS”][quote=“Muzha Man”] In addition, I was told by the tourism board that the rail was set up more with tourism in mind than transport between cities…For people flying in to Taoyuan in the future they could bypass be there in no time. And avoid all the ugliness of going into Taoyuan or Taopei. Tourism will get a big boost when people can fly in and go directly to nice spots.

There’s a reason 5-star hotels are being built around Puli.

[/quote]

:laughing: :laughing: I’m sure there will be loads of Japanese tourists and jetsetters from other nations lining up to fly into Taiwan, jump on the HSR, and pay 6,000 to 10,000 NT per night for a basic “Taiwanese” 5-star room out in the boonies. If you build it, they will come…just clean up the dog shit and fix the air conditioners so the Japs stay more than two days this time (unlike with the program that was set up in some small town in Nantou).

Tourism will get a boost but a “big” boost? I don’t think so. Taiwan simply can not compete with Singapore, Indonesia, Thailand, Malaysia etc. when it comes to attracting foreigners to visit solely for tourism purposes.

On the other hand, will people visiting Taiwan on business utilize the HSR to visit certain attractions in the South? I’m not so sure. I think most business travellers are content to close their business deal in Taipei or Taoyuan, visit the National Museum or 101, get laid, visit Yangmingshan for a hot spring, and then fly home or to their next destination.

Business travel is all about convenience, and although the HSR makes the transportation component more hassle free, there are still plenty of hassles travelling in Taiwan outside of Taipei.

Perhaps Chinese tourists would but I don’t think US, Australian, Singaporean, Canadian, European etc. executives will.[/quote]

Wealthy Japanese and Koreans already make up half the market for the Lalu (NT16000) at Sun Moon Lake. They already fly in and take limos down. They’ll probably soon take the HSR, then a limo.

Taiwanese 5-stars in the hinterlands are often very swanky indeed. You need to get out more.

And what are all these troubles travelling outside Taipei? Let’s see how up-to-date JAS is.

[quote=“Muzha Man”]
Wealthy Japanese already make up half the market for the Lalu (NT16000) at Sun Moon Lake. They already fly in and take limos down. They’ll probably soon take the HSR, then a limo. [/quote]

Will they come back though and are they suitably impressed with the attractions? My wealthy Japanese friend/former school mate/ski and drinking buddy/owner of numerous resorts and tourism enterprises in Japan and Canada certainly wasn’t. He thought the rooms at some hotels were not as clean as they could be and many of the rural attractions were still crowded with busloads of people. In Japan, despite the high population density of the Tokyo-Yokohama area, when you go to many rural attractions (even famous ones such as Mt. Fuji and the Hakone spas), you still have lots and lots of breathing room. In Taiwan you virtually have to be on the top of Alishan before you can get some peace and quiet. You are always surrounded by dog shit, shoe box apartments with metal bars, and noise. This is true in Taipei and in the smallest rinky-dinky towns in Taiwan. The HSR will certainly improve access to these places, but are they that special to begin with? As a seasoned traveller (70 plus countries and half of my 30 years abroad), I would say no.

Well, I stayed in a presidential suite at a well-known resort on the east coast during CNY that had a much higher room rate than the one you mentioned for Sun Moon Lake. Guess what? The air conditioning and room environmental controls didn’t work properly and the remote controls for these were unresponsive.

[quote=“JAS”][quote=“Muzha Man”]
Wealthy Japanese already make up half the market for the Lalu (NT16000) at Sun Moon Lake. They already fly in and take limos down. They’ll probably soon take the HSR, then a limo. [/quote]

Will they come back though and are they suitably impressed with the attractions? My wealthy Japanese friend/former school mate/ski and drinking buddy/owner of numerous resorts and tourism enterprises in Japan and Canada certainly wasn’t. He thought the rooms at some hotels were not as clean as they could be and many of the rural attractions were still crowded with busloads of people. In Japan, despite the high population density of the Tokyo-Yokohama area, when you go to many rural attractions (even famous ones such as Mt. Fuji and the Hakone spas), you still have lots and lots of breathing room. In Taiwan you virtually have to be on the top of Alishan before you can get some peace and quiet. You are always surrounded by dog shit, shoe box apartments with metal bars, and noise. This is true in Taipei and in the smallest rinky-dinky towns in Taiwan. The HSR will certainly improve access to these places, but are they that special to begin with? As a seasoned traveller (70 plus countries and half of my 30 years abroad), I would say no.

Well, I stayed in a presidential suite at a well-known resort on the east coast during CNY that had a much higher room rate than the one you mentioned for Sun Moon Lake. Guess what? The air conditioning and room environmental controls didn’t work properly and the remote controls for these were unresponsive.[/quote]

Right. :unamused: And what compensation did you ask for?

If you are taking about the 5-star in Taroko then it doesn’t surprise me (though I don’t believe it was as bad as you say) as that is an old hotel and 5-star only in name. And actually the east coast is one of the few areas not doing well with building good quality hotels and facilities. The hotel they are building at Shanyuan Beach looks like a technical junior high from the 70s.

In any case, as has been said repeatedly, Alishan and Sun Moon Lake are not the best Taiwan has to offer but its what the Mainland tourists (who will form the majority in the future) want to see. And increased tourism will raise standards everywhere. Is Taiwan ready for affluent western travellers? No, and the tourism reports state this clearly every year. Affluent western tourists are a long-range goal. What they are after now are Mainland and other Asian tourists, and young westerners. The thinking with young westerners is that they will enjoy the mountains, beaches, culture (in particular aboriginal culture) and later, when they are all grown up and making good incomes (15-20 years from now) they will remember Taiwan and want to come back. And by then, the infrastructure and quality will be ready for them.

This is not speculation btw. This is from the mouths and written words of the tourism bureau.

Actually, what I said about affluent westerners is not entirely accurate. North American and European birders are already spending lots to come to Taiwan for one or two week to bird watch. The island is starting to develop an international reputation for that. Hot springs will come next. Then river tracing and mountain climbing for adventure tourists especially now that you no longer need guides for the high mountains and good quality maps are available (and the trails themselves are well marked in English).

Yes, work needs to be done to keep the place cleaner, but that is progressing. This is an incredibly scenic island with a great temple heritage, a living folk religious culture, a dynamic modern society, great food, lots of quirky sites, excellent museums, etc.

Tourism is not a zero-sum game and people are always intrigued by the new if it is packaged right.

We negotiated the price down by 50 percent. Even with the discount, the price was still over 17,000NT. You would think at this price, they would be able to get the environmental controls to function properly and be able to provide guests with English newspapers (although to their credit they did go out and buy me one).

Who said anything about Taroko? Incorrect guess.

I actually agree with most of what you write here. Taiwan does have some beautiful mountain ranges, hot springs etc. (outside of human settlements) that will appeal to a number of Westerners. However, so do many other countries in Asia. With globalization and increased competition, countries will have to offer the complete package. This includes easy visas, top notch attractions and accomodations, friendly people, good food, decent prices etc. Taiwan fits the bill in some of these categories but falls behind sharply in others. If Taiwan really wants more Western tourists to come and enjoy Taiwan, they should implement a friendlier visa system ASAP. In Bali, for example, westerners will soon be able to get a four-month visa upon arrival. Even in the PRC, getting a visa and subsequent extensions is a relatively hassle-free process. And considering how long it took to complete the HSR, I don’t think infrastructure and quality will be improved in the short time frame you mention. Reprogramming peoples’ minds takes a long time. And if the tourism people in government were totally serious about western tourism, they would put a lot of pressure on other government ministries to make it easier for western foreigners to visit and live part of the year in Taiwan (retirement PR system like in Malaysia, permanent lifetime PR like in Singapore (even when you leave the country) ease in obtaining phone lines, credit cards etc.

And you trust what government officials here actually say? I certainly don’t. They have lied to my face on numerous occasions.

Taiwan will face stiff competition when it comes to hot springs and adventure tourism from other Asian countries. What benefits does Taiwan have that say Singapore, Indonesia, Japan, and Thailand don’t? There is only so much tourism money to go around and the countries will have to fight for it. I still think Taiwan has an uphill battle, although the East Coast surely represents Taiwan’s best.

Regarding maps–what do you think about the lack of English signs on MaoKong?

But branding has always been a difficult task in Taiwan, right? While electronics companies may be sophisticated enough to pull it off, I am not convinced the government or small mom and pop operations are when it comes tourism.

speaking of manners and etiquette and clean and tourism, you know how some people here like to stand on toilet seats and do their thing, rather than sit on seats like normal people?

well, the HSR people are aware of that faux pas and how the sight of shoe marks on toilet seats at bullet train stations here might put off foreigners, so there are now signs in all HSR station toilets that say in [Chinese and] English: “PLEASE DO NOT STAND ON TOILET SEAT.”

I saw this at the Hsinchu station, which by the way, is the best designed and most photogenic and eyepleasing station on the line.

Taichung station is big and has a nice Starbucks inside but the station itself lacks any design appeal, just a big boring station inside, whereas the Hsinchu station soars! High above the rest.

A visit to Hsinchu alone is worth the price of admission…

[quote=“purplepeopleeater”]speaking of manners and etiquette and clean and tourism, you know how some people here like to stand on toilet seats and do their thing, rather than sit on seats like normal people?

well, the HSR people are aware of that faux pas and how the sight of shoe marks on toilet seats at bullet train stations here might put off foreigners, so there are now signs in all HSR station toilets that say in [Chinese and] English: “PLEASE DO NOT STAND ON TOILET SEAT.”

I saw this at the Hsinchu (Xinzhu) station, which by the way, is the best designed and most photogenic and eyepleasing station on the line.

Taichung station is big and has a nice Starbucks inside but the station itself lacks any design appeal, just a big boring station inside, whereas the Hsinchu (Xinzhu) station soars! High above the rest.

A visit to Hsinchu (Xinzhu) alone is worth the price of admission…[/quote]

Do you think it will help putting a sign up? Forget it … I know from experience, they just give a sh*t about what’s put up …

Taiwan offers a one-month visa-free stay, which is more than enough time for most tourists in Taiwan. This is a vast improvement over the two-week stay granted just a few years ago and the ridiculous five-day visa-free stay of the mid-90s (that’s about enough time to see Taipei alone). Before that, as recent as 1993, all visitors to Taiwan needed to apply for a visa in advance.

Taiwan does, however, need an easy visa-extension process.

And the winners are … so, the results are in for the global competitiveness in tourism … Taiwan (China :astonished: ) ranks 30th

weforum.org/en/initiatives/g … /index.htm
weforum.org/en/initiatives/g … /index.htm

Travel and Tourism Competitiveness Index

Rank
Country/economy
Score

1 Switzerland
5.66

2 Austria
5.54

3 Germany
5.48

4 Iceland
5.45

5 United States
5.43

6 Hong Kong SAR
5.33

7 Canada
5.31

8 Singapore
5.31

9 Luxembourg
5.31

10 United Kingdom
5.28

11 Denmark
5.27

12 France
5.23

13 Australia
5.21

14 New Zealand
5.20

15 Spain
5.18

16 Finland
5.16

17 Sweden
5.13

18 United Arab Emirates
5.09

19 Netherlands
5.08

20 Cyprus
5.07

21 Belgium
5.07

22 Portugal
5.05

23 Norway
5.04

24 Greece
4.99

25 Japan
4.99

26 Malta
4.96

27 Ireland
4.93

28 Estonia
4.90

29 Barbados
4.86

30 Taiwan, China
4.82

31 Malaysia
4.80

32 Israel
4.80

33 Italy

i was just going to post that article!! 30 ranking isnt that bad at all for taiwan. i find it amazing it’s ranked higher than other popular tourist nations like italy, thailand, mexico, china and indonesia, etc. like, wooow!! seems like naysayers in this forum dont know what they’re talking about or the experts who created this survey made some pretty big booboos.

I saw the news story about that earlier today. The rankings are not based on how “nice” a place is, according to the woman in charge of the survey. Its supposed to reflect the potential of a place. Or so she said.
Something like that, anyway. It’s in no way supposed to suggest a list of “places that are nice to visit.” The main thing is that its the first time Taiwan has been included in this kind of survey and the most important figure is an estimate by a local think tank that if Taiwan HAD been included in previous such surveys, its position would not have increased by much, despite the new railway, etc. Which casts a somewhat different light on the survey altogether, I’d say.
Taiwan has potential is what it says. Whether its taken advantage of efficiently or not, though…
The main problem I see is that they’re trying to attract visitors from China, not Western countries. What your average Chinese tourist is seeking differs very greatly from what your average Westerner is seeking – I’d hazard a guess that they’re diametrically opposed, in fact – and I’m afraid that we’re getting the Chinese version here.

well then i say a 30 ranking for the potential of taiwan being a tourist attraction is great considering the govt. never made tourism a priority industry and never marketed taiwan as a tourist attraction. it’s especially great when taiwan ranks higher in the survey than more popular places like italy. i mean, italy?? that’s a shocker!!