Translation Work

Work Working in Taiwan
42

[quote=“Jive Turkey”] I’ll describe a product my company (HK owned) makes: multimedia speakers. Let’s just consider the plastic casing, not the circuit boards or the speaker driver (those are slightly higher value-added things that might be exported on there own, but probably just to another developing country for further processing). Suppose my company is Taiwan or HK owned and managed. A company like this would probably have an office in Hong Kong or Taiwan, but most of its workforce will be over the border. The company would sell its speakers to companies like Sony, Philips, Panasonic-National, Altec Lansing, Logitech, etc. Those companies’ staffs in Hong Kong/China are ALL Chinese. If there are any gweilos, they are high up enough that they aren’t going to be dealing directly with suppliers.

So my HK/Taiwan company might assemble the speakers. To get the plastic casing, we might do the tooling and injection ourselves if we are one of the bigger companies in the business. More often than not, though, a company like ours would outsource that plastic casing to a plastic injection factory. Such a plastic injection factory would rarely have the opportunity to sell directly to a foreigner–foreigners would rarely have the need to just purchase plastic parts to take back to their country for further processing. If that plastic injection factory is bigger, it will make its own injection molds or tooling. If the plastic injection factory is smaller, it will outsource the tooling to an independent tooling shop. The plastic injection factory will also need to buy raw plastic from a plastics supplier. All of these stages are in China. Why would a tooling shop or plastics supplier need to advertise in English if the supply chain is: plastics supplier>tooling shop/injection factory>speaker assembly factory>HK/Taiwan parent company>HK/Taiwan/Chinese managed subsidiary of an MNC (Altec Lansing, Logitech)>retailer such as Walmart, Carefour, etc? Why should a company market itself to the wrong audience?

The only time when a plastic or tooling company is going to deal with a foreigner is when a.) a Chinese company one, two or three steps down the supply chain brings its foreign buyer by for a quick visit/inspection; or b.) a HK/Taiwan trading company doing sourcing for foreigners brings a client by for a short inspection. I meet lots of foreingers this way, and I can assure you that they don’t give a sh!t if the tooling factory’s brochure has readable Engish. They want to see the details on the factory floor. They don’t expect slick advertising from a tooler or a supplier of big bags of plastic beeds. They expect decent advertising and communication from the HK/Taiwan parent comany or trading company, not from the steps above them in the supply chain. For most mainland companies, the reason they can’t sell directly to foreign buyers isn’t because their advertising is poor; it’s because they don’t have anything to sell to them. Once they actually have a product that a foreign company needs to directly source from them, then they will need better advertising. At the present stage of economic development in China, Taiwan and HK, the people who need to concentrate on how to improve their marketing or how to build a brand are the HK/Taiwan run companies that deal directly with foreigners or foreign owned companies.[/quote]

I agree, and I am not talking about the vendor out in Jung He or Panchio who is doing a plastic top cover or casing. I am talking about other companies that sell or try to sell finsihed goods or a brand to the international market, be it through channel sales etc.
Ok maybe my point here is more localised to Taiwan than China

I have a friend who works in a company who does image and branding (through advertising and marketing material) for these local taiwanese companies who are trying to get into the intnernational market. It is a hard sell to try and convince them of the benefits of branding and image and splashing out the investment in this. Their mindset ( from years of Taiwan being a cheap place to manufacture) is just to try and make it cheaper than the guy down the road

43

I have a question that relates more to translation degrees/qualifications than to translation work. I thought it best to post it here rather than start a new thread.

I’ve been thinking about making a career change and one of the opportunities I’ve investigated has been doing an MA in translation. I’ve heard good things about the programs at both Fujen and NTU. I live in HK, so I’ve looked at the programs here. Everyone here says that the program at the Chinese University of Hong Kong (CU) is among the best in the world. One of my wife’s friends graduated with a BA in translation from CU, so I talked to her about her experiences. She is a teacher and has never translated for work.

She told me that in the BA program, HK students are given the choice of E>C or C>E when doing their final year projects. I asked her if the people who did C>E were native English speakers or were close to it. She said no. She said most of the students did E>C for their projects, but that everyone in the program had to practice interpreting and translating both ways. This woman’s English is at an advanced level for a second language, but she is nowhere close to having near native skills, especially in written English. She said she would never try to do C>E, but that she knew plenty of graduates who do it all the time. I asked her if translating out of mother tongue was a debated issue within the department. She never heard it brought up once in her three years there.

I had a good look at the CU Translation Department’s website the other day. They have a two year part-time MA in Translation. Among the required courses, there are two workshops: C>E and E>C translation. At first I thought that students are supposed to choose one of the two depending on their native language. Nope. Both the English and the Chinese on the site say you have to do both. WTF? Here’s the link: http://traserver.tra.cuhk.edu.hk/ma.htm

Is this a normal requirement for a degree in translation? Do students at Fujen and NTU have to practice translating both ways? I was quite surprised by that. I could understand it if students had to take further language courses to improve their skills in both their source and target languages, but translate into a second language? Is their something wrong there? Is this a good program or is this a situation where Ironlady would say: “run, don’t walk.” I will probably email them to ask them to clarify their requirements, but I wanted to first hear the opinions of some professional tranlators.

44

Yeah, but it’s too late for me to run. I’m in the program already!! :shock:

FJU does require work in both directions. For interpretation (oral work) this is fairly normal for Chinese and Japanese combinations (that is, usually if you have Chinese or Japanese as one of your MAJOR working languages – not just a “C” language which is one that you [supposedly!] understand perfectly but cannot necessarily speak very well so that you only work OUT of it and not INTO it). Most interpreters with Chinese in their combination are either Chinese A (that is, native speakers of Chinese) or only have Chinese as a “C” language. There are a few more these days with Chinese “B” (that is, supposedly a “native-like” command of Chinese both for understanding and production – ha ha! :blush: ). I personally know of 3 in Taiwan just now including myself, and probably I’m missing 1 or 2. (That’s interpreters, not translators).

For translation work, FJU requires two years of coursework in BOTH directions. I personally think this is reprehensible and irresponsible, but I have little say about it. IMHO the translation coursework is pretty much a waste of time at any event, particularly into your second language. I show up for class (usually) and do the assignments, but beyond having a very few words corrected/replaced, there is no feedback and certainly nothing that would help me to move my written Chinese toward the point where it would be salable on the market. The same is true for the Chinese students who are working into their second language, English. Their work is creditable – not bad – certainly understandable – but it’s painfully and immediately obvious that a native English speaking translator could do 100 times better in half the time. (The same is true of any native Chinese speaking translator in comparison to my pathetic required efforts into Chinese, so don’t think I’m getting high and mighty here.)

I’ve been on the translation market full-time for 17 years now, in the US and Taiwan. There are a lot of people working out of their native language into second or third languages. Most of them think their work is very, very good. In most cases, it isn’t. But the key point is that [color=red]clients don’t know[/color]. They are asking to have the document translated because they don’t speak English (in Taiwan, that is) so they have no way of truly judging whether the English is of the China Post standard or not. (Um…er… :shock: ) And in the States, for example, for work into Chinese, the average client can’t even tell if what you give them is Chinese or Japanese, let alone figure out if it’s good work. So, sure, I could probably work into Chinese in the States for translation work, but I don’t see the point. The work would be very sub-standard, and I would be taking work from legitimate professionals working into their native language.

For the same reasons, I feel very harshly about people who accept “editing” work which involves re-writing the piss-poor English of “translators” who are working into English from their native Chinese. There are certain situations where this might be advisable – there are some texts in Chinese that are so dense or so specific that it’s more time-effective to have a native Chinese speaker with good English do the first translation and have it cleaned up. But usually you don’t get people of this calibre. If you’ve ever dealt with translation agencies in Taipei, you’ll know that the into-Chinese rates are much lower than the into-English, so there’s economic incentive to work into English as well.

NTNU only requires translation courses during the first year (quite sensible of them) for interpreting students. (Translation group students take translation courses throughout their studies, obviously, at both schools.)

And don’t even get me started on the quality of “translation courses.” Even after devoting so much time to studying this stuff, I am not convinced that it’s something that can be taught effectively. Usually people have a talent for it or they don’t. They can see how to express something clearly and accurately or they can’t. People improve with practice and guidance, but as for setting up a Ph.D. program as Shita has recently – well…I dunno…

45

BTW – “language improvement courses” are a figment of your imagination.

It would seem logical that improving one’s languages (yes, even your native language in many cases!) would be desirable for people in a T&I course. However, neither NTNU nor FJU offers such courses. The (IMHO) excuse for this is, “It is assumed when you enter that you have a professional level of competence in all your working languages. We are here to teach you interpreting/translation technique, not to improve your languages. Improving your languages is your responsibility.”

Then the students are packed off to an English-speaking country after completing their first year of study (unless they have already resided in such a country for more than – I think it’s a year??). They are given, IMHO, precious little guidance or information on HOW to “improve their English”, they are merely assured that living in an English-speaking country will somehow do the trick.

Well, I’ve been living in a Chinese-speaking country for years now, and unless you make a real effort and know what kind of language you need to hear and practice, you can go days without hearing anything deeper than “huanying guanglin” at the 7-11. This is not conducive to improving your language to the extremely high level that interpreting requires (a level which I aspire to reach someday before I die, but I doubt it).

So do NOT think that doing a T&I degree will improve your languages. You’ll pick up some stuff, depending on the degree to which you manage to figure out how to do so on your own. And if you’re an English-A, be prepared to be ignored. Every new English word is carefully spelled, pronounced twice, and explained in both languages; a new Chinese phrase is said once, hurriedly, in a thick Taiwanese accent and that’s it. The only teacher I currently have who has figured out that it’s worthwhile to write some things on the board for me is, ahem, well…white. (By which I mean that teacher is a native English speaker and so is more understanding of what I need…but also provides the Chinese students the reinforcement of English words that THEY need.)

46

Thanks Ironlady. I’ve learned so much from your posts about learning/teaching Chinese and translation. Some of the tips I’ve picked up in your posts have helped me improve my study habits, and more importantly, my attitude about studying Chinese. We’re lucky to have you around. Good advice for Chinese learners above the beginner level is hard to come by.

47

Although western people keep saying that non-English speakers are not competent to do Chinese to English translation, it’s dubious. Of course, native speakers know how address clearly and accurately in English. It doesn’t mean that they can understand Chinese thoroughly, and they have enough knowledge of which they translate.

By the way, as a Chinese, I cannot translate English of any fields into Chinese. My friends whose major is English literature sometimes translate scientific reports into joke-like Chinese. Of course, he can do it better if he studies a little physics, chemistry, biology, computer, astronomy, calculus, etc.

If I study for long enough in a school where everyone speaks English, and I still have poor English, I will blame myself but others.

48

Is this post supposed to convince me that you could translate into English? If so, it’s not, er, terribly compelling evidence…

49

Uh, I think Chinese people would also agree that “non-English speakers” are not competent to do C>E translation. Yes, I know you actually mean “non-native English speakers.” I’m not trying to ridicule your English.

I imagine Ironlady will come around and make a very articulate case for why a translator should only work into his/her first language. She’s got years of work and academic experience in this field and will probably be able to make an eloquent argument with lots of big words people only learn in graduate school. I can only tell you about my own layman’s observations.

I’ve known a few Chinese academics who have lived in the states for as long as forty years. None of them could write as well as a native speaker with an equal level of education, much less experience. Only one of these academics could write so well that a reader wouldn’t know he was a foreigner. This guy had studied/taught in the States since he was 22 years old; he was in his late 60s when I knew him. His writing still had a touch of noticeable repetition and cliche. I think what set him apart from the others was that he was quite realistic about his writing skills. Even in his 60s, he never stopped asking well-educated native speakers to look over his work. For the half dozen other Chinese academics I knew, their writing was all very obviously written by a non-native English speaker. Most of it was painful to read. These people had all studied and lived in the States for lengthy periods. Keep that in mind when you say a native Chinese speaker can translate into English.

Even for the one guy in his 60s, he could only write well in his very specific field of research. Keep in mind that he was not dealing with the complexity of translating somebody else’s work from Chinese to English. His English writing was all based on his own thoughts and research. Native or non-native, it is easier to write on topics and in styles that are familiar. I can write somewhat clearly (for a non-native speaker!) in Chinese if I’m writing something relevant to my interests or work. If I write on topics outside of a pretty narrow band, the language will read like dribble.

Having lived in Taiwan, HK and the mainland, I’ve met a few Chinese translators with very high levels of bilingualism; some of them can’t be distinguished from a native English speaker even after a long conversation. However, their writing quality is nowhere close to that of an educated native speaker. Some of it is absolute garbage. Most of them studied in the UK or another English speaking country from their secondary school years onward. If they can’t write something good enough to publish, then what native Chinese speaker can? Most of them can’t even write well enough for a native speaker to tolerate reading it. Yes, some of their writing might get the message across sloppily, but who wants to pay for that? My guess is that companies or people who care about accuracy and presenting a good image of themselves would not be interested in buying that kind of translation.

You used the word “competent.” There’s something about using this word in this context that makes me uncomfortable. To me, the word “competent” is used when talking about skills that are acquired through training and education. In my opinion, it’s just about impossible for 99.9% of us to be trained to write a second language as well as a professional native speaking writer of that language. Don’t you agree that a translator is a professional writer? Whether we use the word competent or able or whatever, who is more qualified to judge the readability of a translation than an educated native speaker of that language?

I will never be able to write Chinese as well as I write English. If anyone tells me that they can write their second language as well as or better than their first language, then that just proves to me that they are either full of sh@t or they have neglected their first language to the point of stunting their development in it. I’m not very impressed with people like that. They seem pretty shallow to me. Sure, I would love to be able to write publishable material in Chinese some day, and I will study writing with that nearly impossible goal in mind. However, I would consider it a sad day if I found that I could express myself better in my second language than in my first.

[quote=“kimichen”]Of course, native speakers know how address clearly and accurately in English. It doesn’t mean that they can understand Chinese thoroughly, and they have enough knowledge of which they translate.
[/quote]
Uh, I’m not sure what you mean here. The same can be said about a native Chinese speaker translating from English sources. I’ve read E>C translations where it was quite obvious that the translator didn’t have a firm grasp of the source material. Either the translator’s general language skills were poor or they had translated material that was not within one of their specialties. If you’re actually implying that foreigners just can’t understand the “complexity” and “deep meaning” of the Chinese language, then I predict that this will be the first translation related thread to go to the flame forum.

50

[quote=“Jive Turkey”]
I imagine Ironlady will come around and make a very articulate case for why a translator should only work into his/her first language.[/quote]
The case is simple. With very few exceptions, people translating into non-native languages produce varying degrees of crap.

Over the last year I’ve edited twenty-odd academic papers for Taiwanese professors and graduate students wishing to be published in English journals. Only one of them was free of unnatural English which could have been cause for misunderstanding. For the others, I needed to ask the writers between ten and twenty questions in order to clarify what they meant in various passages; often they simply sent me the Chinese source text in response (which helped greatly).

That a university would have a translation program in which any stress at all is given to translation into a non-native language is scandalous. And I’ll add my voice to the chorus expressing doubts about whether translation is something that can really be taught anyway. Practice undoubtedly makes for improvement, and there are certain tricks of the trade you can pick up, but I’m very much a Pinkerian/Chomskian when it comes to how we “learn” languages growing up. Sadly, for most people, once you pass the age of twelve your brain moves on to other things, making language acquisition difficult at best.

Having said that, I only started learning Chinese at the age of 27 when I moved to Taiwan, and now, a decade later, I translate C-E full-time, but I suppose I’m a bit special.

51

Just for the record, I didn’t learn all those “big words” in graduate school. I learned them by osmosis – oh, sorry, I mean, I picked them up – from this guy I dated in high school (no kidding). His dad was a professor of English, and the family just kind of used those words naturally. It made taking tests like the SAT and GRE most convenient, though, because I pretty much knew the words already just from having heard them in real life. (Okay, the guy had other serious problems, but vocabulary-wise, it was a great deal!) :smiley:

Writing lasts. Speech doesn’t. That’s why we can “get away with” interpreting into our second languages – people tend to listen, understand (we hope!) and then forget about the details of the errors we might have made in the sentence. Writing is forever. People have a way of pulling it out of the drawer years later and saying, “Gosh, this [insert name of language here] sucks!” Of course the ideal in both interpreting and translation is for a person who has a perfect understanding of his second language to translate into his first language, in which he can express himself perfectly at any level and in every style.

The difference IMHO is that (I’m generalizing – don’t get your neiku in a knot, people!) many Chinese seem to feel that they can learn English to the same level as a native speaker (or better, in some of their opinions!) while I’ve only met one non-Chinese in my life who felt his Chinese was of native level (and, tragically, the guy’s probably right. But he’s something of a mutant-genius… :smiley: )

52

[quote=“porcelainprincess”]

Having said that, I only started learning Chinese at the age of 27 when I moved to Taiwan, and now, a decade later, I translate C-E full-time, but I suppose I’m a bit special.

[/quote]

Come on, tell me more what make such magic!
If it is impossible to improve, first, all schools of such a field, including those in the US and UK, are certainly cheating their students. Second, in order to not wallow in the mire with my predecessors, I will choose a thesis topic “What genes should a translator and a interpretor possess?” after enrolling my school.

Chinese is very difficult for me, but it’s easy for foreigners. When reading students’ papers or literary Chinese, I cannot understand fully all the time.

I think those whose majors are translation/interpreting, Asian study, etc. should have more perception or empathy of awkward current situations here. Maybe most people focus on business so give arguments based on it. But it sounds biased and exaggerated considering the whole reality.

Or maybe I am blinded! Or people from outside are over confident!

Translation is like building a bridge, and breaking a wall. It’s a good job.

53

Are you referring to studying a foreign/second language? Nobody here has said that it is impossible to improve second language skills. Maybe you should read again. The main point everyone here is making is that for 99.9% of us, it is a pipe dream to expect that we will ever be able to do professional writing in anything other than our native languages. For that .1% that may become that good in a foreign language, there is a high possibility that they would have to halt or stunt their development in their native language.

54

Sorry for confusion. Poor English or logic problems again.

I should say if these programs which cannot help their students improve to an acceptable level should be stopped. If they won’t, there must be a reason, right?

55

[quote=“kimichen”]Sorry for confusion. Poor English or logic problems again.

I should say if these programs which cannot help their students improve to an acceptable level should be stopped. If they won’t, there must be a reason, right?[/quote]
What exactly do you mean by an “acceptable standard?” Are you implying that if there is no hope of ever speaking and writing our second language with the same quality of a native speaker, then we should just give up? How childish.

People can always improve their ability to communicate in their foreign language. However, communicating with a reasonable level of precision in a foreign language and doing professional writing in that language are two different things. The former is possible; the latter is damn near impossible. I send Chinese emails to employees in my company all the time. They are just fine for simple communication with people in the company. These emails have never failed to communicate what needed communicating. Are you telling me that if I can’t write Chinese with the same quality of a professional writer, then I shouldn’t try to communicate at all? If we follow this rationale, then we should have asked you to stop posting a long time ago.

Nobody here is telling you that you can’t be a translator or interpreter. I’m just telling you that you will never be able to write at a professional level in your second language, and thus you should not translate out of your first language. Holding on to the idea that you can write professionally on a variety of topics (which is what is required of a translator) is just immature and shows ignorance of reality.

56

It might help clarify things a bit to point out that not everyone is capable of writing professionally even in one’s native language. Writing, like anything else, is a skill, and not one that comes automatically with spoken fluency - there are plenty of native English speakers who would have difficulty expressing themselves clearly in written English, and I expect the same to be true of native Chinese speakers in Chinese. I think to be a good translator, one would have to be above average to well above average in the native (target) language to begin with, before even focusing on the second language at all.

57

Yup. That’s why it surprises me when Ironlady tells us that these MA in Translation courses include nothing about polishing native language writing skills. If I were going to translate professionally, I would like to learn more about technical writing, or just go back and do some general composition courses. For my first few years living in Taiwan/HK/China, I wrote NO English, except for casual writing (emails). I focussed most of my attention on Chinese. Every now and then, I have to translate a few things at work. The most difficult thing for me is not understanding the Chinese or knowing the meaning of technical words. The greatest difficulty I have is writing it in smooth English. I suspect that if I had been doing more writing in English these past few years, then I wouldn’t be having quite as much difficulty.

58

[quote=“Jive Turkey”]

Yup. That’s why it surprises me when Ironlady tells us that these MA in Translation courses include nothing about polishing native language writing skills. [/quote]

I can tell you the reason because I am preparing for entering these programs. In Taiwan, if you want to study for MA of translation, you have to beat your competitors by papers and pans. If your Chinese is bad, it is almost impossible to be accepted for Taiwanese. If our Chinese is not good enough, we can take courses in Chinese literature department without any limitations. For westerners, it is easier to get in because you take different exams, but the problem is that you get fewer resources later (Usually, no extra help for foreigners). However teachers will lower their standards for you too.(Based on Little Buddha’s and my language pal’s description.)

In graduate schools, I prefer to learn what I cannot learn by myself. Polishing Chinese is not the priority. Polishing English is a lifelong task. I am not critical of the Fu Ren University. Its academic resources and quality is far behind most national universities. It is reasonable to hear a complaint. I’ve been hearing a lot of complaints from my overseas Chinese language pal who studying in Fu Ren for 4 years. I live next to its another campus in Taipei city, my brother took a computer course there. It’s a crap completely.

Take a look what we have to conquer before entering:

59

No, we take the SAME entrance examination to get into Fujen’s MA program in conference interpretation. Same written exam, same oral interview and test interpreting passages. We also take all identical semester exams (like the one yesterday :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: ) and an identical professional examination. And we are judged by the same or higher standards…there was a major discussion about my “accent” in Chinese, yet there is never a word about my classmates’ accents in English, for instance.

I believe you will find that Fujen is by no means inferior to Shita’s GITI in training interpreters. I’ll put our second-year students up against theirs any day. Fujen has the advantage of smaller class size and better physical facilities for training. Everything else is pretty much equal as faculty are mostly shared or equivalent.

And BTW, I handle the kind of stuff you list as being part of the entrance exam every day. It’s not overly difficult by the standard of what you need to do as an interpreter, so they are not merely trying to reduce the number of applicants by doing this. From what I’ve seen of your English on this board, I’d strongly advise you to go to an English-speaking country to study for a year or so before seriously trying to gain entrance to an interpretation MA program. Just my NT$0.66 of course, but then again I’m very familiar with the English levels of the students accepted to the programs for the past several years.

60

Is this somehow related to the other famous non-existent English idiom “it’s all the same banana”? (Google it…zero hits.) :unamused:

61

They teach “translation classes” in which students translate passages and then either have them marked by the teacher or discuss them in groups with or without teacher input. I cannot judge to what extent these exercises help students to improve their Chinese (if they are native Chinese speakers). I can tell you that I don’t see much improvement in English writing going on by means of these translation classes into English.