Trying to blame Chiang Kai-Shek for 2-28

Politics Taiwan Politics
21

Just a reply to ac_dropouts’s question

zhujianlun is quite right about democratic momentum under Japanese colonial rule. On this point, I once again recommend Shelley Rigger’s Politics in Taiwan: Voting for Democracy as the seminal source. Rigger states (p.36), “In the early 1930’s, with war on the horizon, Japan needed the support of its Taiwanese subjects…The central government handed the colonial authorities a mandate to institute local elections in 1935, in which voters would choose half the members of local assemblies.” Almost 300,000 Taiwanese were registered to vote in these elections when they were fully developed and dozens of ethnic Taiwanese sat in these assemblies. In fact, it was in these elections where Taiwan first saw the Single Vote Multi-Member (SVMM) voting system which continues today as a hallmark of the democractic election system of the Taiwanese state.

22

The only way for this totally foggy area to be seen equally is to put all the evidence outside. Too much rubish is thrown to the eyes of people, from one sida and the other.

However, there are undeniable facts: KMT government did commit mass selective murdering to assure theyr position. And if you look at history and see how CKS responded to the comunnist threat or any other threat whatsoever, the 2-28 incident just becomes acceptable, because it goes with it’s modus operandi. However, becoming more acceptable doesn’t mean it happened.

23

[quote=“Etheorial”][quote] Total bullshit. The KMT deliberately tagged any Taiwanese politicians, intellectuals and others who dared to step out of line as communists and most were eventually prosecuted/executed on that basis. There was already democratic momentum in Taiwan under the Japanese and then the early KMT administration. Democracy was an option, but not at the highest levels for the mongrel thugs that prevailed in the party by the late 1940s

24

[quote=“mr_boogie”]The only way for this totally foggy area to be seen equally is to put all the evidence outside. Too much rubish is thrown to the eyes of people, from one Shi-Da and the other.

However, there are undeniable facts: KMT government did commit mass selective murdering to assure theyr position. And if you look at history and see how CKS responded to the comunnist threat or any other threat whatsoever, the 2-28 incident just becomes acceptable, because it goes with it’s modus operandi. However, becoming more acceptable doesn’t mean it happened.[/quote]

The massacre of the intellectuals is commonly interpreted that the KMT did this in order to secure their position in Taiwan. However, were intellectuals murdered because they were involved in the groups that were negotiating with the government during the standoff, or were intellectuals massacred because they were intellectuals and the KMT didn’t want the Taiwanese to have leaders?

This is a critical question. The 228 incident happened in early 1947 and the KMT position was not lost yet in the mainland. The troops were sent to Taiwan to put down the upridisg and Chiang probably didn’t think he was going to have to retreat there just yet.

I’m not insisting on any one point of view, but I find it questionable that the troops killed intellectuals to secure their position for decades to come in Taiwan when their focus was really on the mainland at the time.

I’m just throwing this out there and I think this is open to do debate, but isn’t it also reasonable that leaders of the groups holding positions in cities were intellectuals that were targeted by the troops? Therefore, to the Taiwanese, it looked like their leaders were getting killed off so the KMT could secure their position.

However, I don’t agree with this widely believed interpretation of history that when the KMT first got to Taiwan they took out all the intellectuals to secure their position.

Because if the intellectuals were murdered because the KMT was afraid of being overthrown, then why didn’t they murder them right when they arrived in Taiwan in 1945? Or were they murdered because they were in leadership positions in the uprising in Feb. 1947 that wanted to overthrow the government?

25

Not completely lost, but then nor was Shanghai when they rounded up and shot the commies in the thirties. It was typical Chiang-inspired KMT barbarism.

I read a great interview years ago with a former mainland soldier in a Taiwan Chinese newspaper He said when they arrived they didn’t see fellow Chinese as they expected but rather everyone wore Japanese fashion and their hair was cut Jap style. The mainlanders after enduring the war with Japan just lost it. These were not peple as they knew them, they were Japanese.

Check the 2/28 museum. Even if you can’t read Chinese, the pictures alone tell a story.

HG

26

Someone must be confused by what democracy really means. 300,000 people doesn’t even constitute a majority of the Taiwan population, let alone claim it was becoming democratic. This is after 40 years of Japanese occupation.

40 years after the KMT arrived on Taiwan, much more had already been achieved.

27

Most likely because the remaining intellect on Taiwan were all Japanese educated and they couldn’t be trusted after reviewing their initail demands after 228.

The KMT were pretty selective about who were targeted. If it truely was just a mass genocide against Hoklo, then Taiwan would be a much different place today. Let alone how would one explain LTH rise to power.

Obviously the determining factor was to show unwaivering loyalty to the KMT and the ROC, which of course translated to did CKS trust you in the end. Since Chen Yi was summarily executed once it was discovered that he lacked this characteristic.

28

And so did the Japanese when they took over the island.

So where is the holiday dedicated to all the Taiwanese that lost their live against the Japanese.

Talk about misguided rage sometimes.

29

Maybe Japanese couldn’t read or understand mandarin… that is a very good reason for the ones who were able to talk to them to “get rid” of the people they didn’t like. Anyway, no Chinese argues that Japanese were mass murderers. The problem with this matter is that they were both Chinese, everybody could communicate pretty much well and, maybe the pan-green camp uses the 2-28 to remind people what KMT was. Anyway, if you want to see KMT rule over Taiwan, the blatant use of theyr simbol in the national flag is only equaled by communist parties.

30

ac_drop wrote

I suppose that that someone must be me. You can use my name without hurting my feelings.

While this number did not represent the universal franchise that Taiwanese have enjoyed since the lifting of martial law, it would be incorrect to imply that this was not a significant number of Taiwan residents. The vote I referred to included only men over 25 who paid tax. According to the 1943 Japanese census, there were 3,108,130 males in Taiwan, including Japanese residents. More than 10% of Taiwanese males were voting by the end of the War. This is a significant percentage of the population compared with European and American colonies or even Western nations prior to the implementation of universal franchise. Certainly it fits zhujianlun’s point about “democratic momentum”.

Most signifiacantlyl, it is comparable with the election situation established by KMT until many decades after retrocession.

The early Japanese elections were the first election held in Taiwan and are accepted by foreign historians of the period as the origins of Taiwan’s electoral system. Many aspect of them, such as the method for tabulating winners, were retained even after the KMT established their rule.

In the past, I’ve admitted when I’ve been caught with the wrong facts and you can too.

mr_boogie wrote

This may be so, but I would.

The Japanese slaughtered huge numbers of Taiwanese from 1895 to 1915. This is generally described as the campaign against banditry, but it would be more accurate to call it the campaign against local resistance to colonization. Many of techniques employed would not stand up to the media now covering Iraq. For example, the Japanese would invit local chiefs to meet and discuss terms for their assimilation into the colonial government. When they had them together in one place, they would slaughter them.

While much of Taiwan’s colonial history is now being documented, the early resistance to the Japanese remains the last truly unknown period. But one thing we can say for sure is that a very large number of Taiwanese were killed.

31

If I were the Japanese Government, I would do worse:

Invite them to parties, fill it with karoake girls and took a lot of photos, then I would send them to the media for a nice scandal… No tribal leader can be promiscuos, can he? I bet that they wouldn’t even need to do a lot more than throw out the parties… as it was shown by the roman empire, the best way to win support in a conquered land (although Taiwan was never conquered by the Japanese, it was like a smelly fish that China threw to Japan to keep them quiet) by seducing them. I guess it would be fairly easy to Japanese to seduce the people of Taiwan (hell, they had hundreds and hundreds of professional seducers over there(can I personally vote on Ito Misaki???:twisted: )). So I agree that Japanese were stupid in the matter of how to resolve the Taiwan deal.

On the serious part, one simple question: Of the 2 million (more or less) that fled with the KMT to Taiwan, how many where man, woman and children? This is important to know because a society receiving an extra income of males is, for sure, a timebomb.

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And so did the Japanese when they took over the island.

So where is the holiday dedicated to all the Taiwanese that lost their live against the Japanese.

Talk about misguided rage sometimes.[/quote]

I’ve been told by people who actually lived during the time the Japanese occupied Taiwan that, although the Japanese were not the most likable occupiers, they didn’t hold a candle to the brutality and mean-spiritness of the KMT under CKS.

33

Are you saying that the arriving mainlanders could communicate well with the Taiwanese at that time?

The Taiwanese couldn’t speak Mandarin at that time and there was a language barrier which led to more difficulties between the 2 groups. It was after the education system was here for a while that everyone could speak Mandarin, or at least Taiwan Mandarin.

34

And so did the Japanese when they took over the island.

So where is the holiday dedicated to all the Taiwanese that lost their live against the Japanese.

Talk about misguided rage sometimes.[/quote]

I’ve been told by people who actually lived during the time the Japanese occupied Taiwan that, although the Japanese were not the most likable occupiers, they didn’t hold a candle to the brutality and mean-spiritness of the KMT under CKS.[/quote]

You know someone that lived from 1895 till present day?

More accurately those families that dared criticize the Japanese during the occupation no longer exist. Unlike the KMT that allow most dissidents to live and participate in Taiwan politics.

35

[quote=“ac_dropout”]

You know someone that lived from 1895 till present day?

More accurately those families that dared criticize the Japanese during the occupation no longer exist. Unlike the KMT that allow most dissidents to live and participate in Taiwan politics.[/quote]

The Japanese surrendered the island in 1945, did they not?

From what I was told, the Japanese were brutal and authoritarian – make no mistake about it – but, as long as you toed the line you were fine. The KMT were downright scary at that time – their actions were a lot more unpredictable and paranoid.

That’s what I’ve been told, anyhow.

36

-This describes the DPP and the TI faction quite accurately right now.

37

Are you saying that the arriving mainlanders could communicate well with the Taiwanese at that time?

The Taiwanese couldn’t speak Mandarin at that time and there was a language barrier which led to more difficulties between the 2 groups. It was after the education system was here for a while that everyone could speak Mandarin, or at least Taiwan Mandarin.[/quote]

Sorry Betelnut, but Mr. Boogie is more or less right on this one. Many KMT officials, including Governor Chen Yi were educated in Japan and could speak directly to most people, if they wanted. Chen refused to speak Japanese on the grounds that it was not the national language. This is one of the factors that the conservative historians Lai, Meyers, and Hou lead to 228.

In addition, many KMT soldiers and refugees were from Fukien, which, as I am sure you know, the same local language is spoken.

Finally, it is widely accepted among Taiwanese historians such as Chou Wan-yao and confirmed in the popular writings of Peng Ming-min that initially, the Taiwanese were extremely excited about retrocession to the KMT government. There was significant pro-Chinese sentiment. While I can not say that CKS is to blame for 228, I can say that the KMT blew it and even in this informed and bilingual group here, there remains significant confusion about the events of that time.

38

-This describes the DPP and the TI faction quite accurately right now.[/quote]

Give. Me. A. Break.

39

That is what I’ve been told, too. But they quickly changed their minds on that one.

40

-This describes the DPP and the TI faction quite accurately right now.[/quote]

Give. Me. A. Break.[/quote]

So instead of giving a fair interpretation of events and history. The TI administration decides to pin the entire 228 incident on a dead person.
Reminds me of the whole 319 incident…the dead guy did it.

The rioting on 228 was completely justified. The killing of WSR and various public servants by mobs were also justified.

You already got a break. Why do you think your posting in English on this topic. If the KMT and CKS were actually practicing genocide against the Taiwanese, as TI supporters like to claim, you think you’d be here?