Turkey : should it enter the EU?

My question is this : should Turkey enter the EU ?

It is not very clear what is going to happen in Turkey

time.com/time/world/article/ … =rss-world

Huge demonstrations will again take place in Istanbul today for a secular Turkey.

[quote]
Parking space, not politics, is what usually gets my thoroughly decent, middle-class Istanbul neighborhood in a twist. But Sunday morning, the Burberry set — trendy teenagers in Ray-ban Aviators, pensioners in sun hats, young professionals and entire families — turned revolutionary. Waving red and white Turkish flags and chanting “Turkey will not become Iran,” they streamed up the road by the hundreds to join the city’s biggest secularist rally in recent memory. Fed up with the politics of Turkey’s Islamic-rooted government, the so-called White Turks have finally taken to the streets.
“Count us!” they chorused, nearly 1 million of them, the silent middle class on a very noisy day out. Many were novice demonstrators. “This is the first time I’ve ever been to a rally,” said Mine Okcuoglu, a 29-year-old banker, attending with her mom. “I felt that I had to do something because the government is taking Turkey in a direction I strongly object to.” [/quote]

Yes. They are a far better candidate than the last few nations to have been admitted. Someone has to do the work if Europe’s retired millions hope to receive their social security checks.

Drawing the border on the near side of Turkey would be easier, but the challenge Turkish membership would pose to “European identity” could shake out well.

No. Turkey has no control of its Eastern borders, nor is it making any great effort to resolve the Cyprus issue.

JD, are you in favour of opening the US border with Mexico to allow Mexicans to provide that same source of cheap labour?

You are just being jealous. And besides you re wrong as it is not because a country join the EU that it will pay other countries people’s retirement. Each country has its own pension schemes.

This question deserves a better answer than this

If Turkey should join, what are the benefits ?
If no, why ?

[quote=“SHARLEE”]If Turkey should join, what are the benefits ?
If no, why ?[/quote]Consider the situation of Muslims in France. Are they well integrated? Does the French state have an effective means, or plan, to integrate them? (Hint: No, the state is constitutionally colour blind.) Might Turkey’s inclusion–despite (or is it because of?) the strongly secular nature of the state–open new routes for addressing the marginal status of this group?

I think most french political leaders are opposed to an entry of Turkey, mostly because as you said it will be a challenge for european identity.

But I had the feeling the US were pushing to integrate Turkey. Why ?

Probably for the same reasons as Britain: a broader Europe is less likely to be a deeper Europe: the E.U. is less likely to become “The United States of Europe” if Turkey is in the fold.

You are just being jealous. And besides you re wrong as it is not because a country join the EU that it will pay other countries people’s retirement. Each country has its own pension schemes.

This question deserves a better answer than this

If Turkey should join, what are the benefits ?
If no, why ?[/quote]

Jealous of what?!? So, if Turkey was in the EU, young workers in the thousands wouldn’t relocate throughout EU countries getting jobs and paying into pension funds that will pay retirees?

And that IS a benefit.[quote]
Turkey could also help alleviate a labour shortage in “Old Europe” once its population comes of age. By 2014, one in four Turks - or about 18 million people - will be aged 14 or less.

“A literate and qualified Turkish population,” insisted Mr Sener, “will make a positive impact on the EU.” [/quote]
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4063233.stm

[quote]
Its population of 70 million would make it one of the largest—and fastest-growing—members of the EU. Western Europe has a declining birth rate and needs young workers to prop up its elaborate social pension schemes.[/quote]
cfr.org/publication/8939/tur … bid.html#5

[quote]
JD, are you in favour of opening the US border with Mexico to allow Mexicans to provide that same source of cheap labour?[/quote]
I am in favor of legal immigration and legal employment from Mexico, yes.

You are jealous of the benefits that we have but that our grand parents fought for.
Turkey does not need to be in the EU to benefit the pension schemes.
Have you ever been to Germany ? probably no.
There are hundreds of thousands of turkish people already working there as legal imigrants and paying for retirees

Any other views from maybe european background out in Taiwan ?

[quote=“SHARLEE”]You are jealous of the benefits that we have but that our grand parents fought for.
Turkey does not need to be in the EU to benefit the pension schemes.
Have you ever been to Germany ? probably no.
There are hundreds of thousands of turkish people already working there as legal imigrants and paying for retirees

Any other views from maybe european background out in Taiwan ?[/quote]
I assure you I am not jealous in the least of the benefits your grandparents won for you.

As for the numbers of young low skilled workers needed to handle the pension “schemes,” it’s not like I’m making it up. Read it for yourself. Low birthrate; high retiree rate. You do the math.

You are off topic, this is not an imigration thread.

Maybe you should start a thread on european benefits that you are so despising , retirement but also health care do not forget.

We do not need any lesson from america to think about our pensions future (again I should add this attitude of yours in the reasons why america is disliked thread)

I m proud to live in a european country where people who have no health care are not left without treatment for cancer. Now if that is not your view of humanity then I have nothing else to tell you and will ignore you

Back to what is happening in Turkey today and your views of should it be in the EU ?

[quote=“SHARLEE”]You are off topic, this is not an imigration thread.

Maybe you should start a thread on european benefits that you are so despising , retirement but also health care do not forget.

We do not need any lesson from America to think about our pensions future (again I should add this attitude of yours in the reasons why America is disliked thread)

I m proud to live in a european country where people who have no health care are not left without treatment for cancer. Now if that is not your view of humanity then I have nothing else to tell you and will ignore you

Back to what is happening in Turkey today and your views of should it be in the EU ?[/quote]

How is he off topic? You can’t address Turkey’s membership to the EU without analyzing the impacts of migration. Thats the biggest effect of its inclusion!

…and JD, your response of being in favour of ‘legal immigration’ from mexico is simply political. Under the current system its extremely difficult for any mexican, indeed its hard enough for any European or Australian to work in the US, such is the protected state of its labour market. So effectively your view is that you are not open to a system whereby any mexican can easily cross the border and apply for a job as easily as an American, as would be the case if Turkey was administered into the EU.

So I put it to you that you are being rather hypocritical in being in favour of Turkey joining the EU in order to ‘pay for European pensions’ and not in favour of the same thing in the U.S. / Mexico scenario, particularly when although birthrates are lower in Europe, the state of their pension systems is in a better state than the US. To add further weight to my argument, it would seem that Mexicans, with their Christian backgrounds, seem to integrate far better than your average Turk in Europe.

Migration is not the biggest effect of a country inclusion. Did the spanish or portuguese went more abroad before or after their inclusion ? I think it was before when their country were not as economically developed as other european countries. Now that they have caught up thanks to EU fundings, people do not need to migrate for economical reason.

Will it be worth investing money in turkey ? Do we share common values and ideas ? (sharia laws?) can we secure our external borders ? what about a country that is non christian having more seats and power in the EU parliament because of its large and increasing population ? These are in my opinion issues far more important than imigration , this last topic already being a concern for others undevelopped countries in the mediterrenean area or africa and who are not seeking to be included in the EU

No, but it is very important. The pension problems facing EU countries have to be dealt with and outside of raising taxes in an already overtaxed (IMO) system, having immigrant labors to pay into the system seems like a win win situation for the EU and Turkey: The pensions get funded and money gets sent home to Turkey.

[quote]
Will it be worth investing money in turkey ? Do we share common values and ideas ? (sharia laws?) can we secure our external borders ?[/quote]
Turkey’s economy is doing pretty well last I knew. I made a bundle in the TUrkish Fund a few years back. have things changed dramatically? And…uhm…Turkey is secular.

Tyc00n wrote:

[quote]
JD, your response of being in favour of ‘legal immigration’ from mexico is simply political[/quote]
Heavens! :laughing:

I am all for legal immigration on a greater scale than we now have it. I have no problem with Mexicans legally doing the jobs they are illegally doing now, or legally raising their children as US citizens and living out their “American Dream.”

And I agree that Mexicans will be an easier fit to the US than the Turks will be for the EU. But isn’t this an apples and bananas comparison?

sharlee wrote:[quote]
what about a country that is non christian having more seats and power in the EU parliament because of its large and increasing population[/quote]
What? Are you afraid they would exclude “real” Europeans from things simply based on their religious persuasions? How ironic. :laughing:

Sharia laws, in Turkey?

Tell me, how much more do you share in common with Polish farmers, and are those common values a reason to invest in improving the country? Former Soviet block countries look at successful reforms in Poland, or Romania, and choose to align themselves with Europe rather than Russia (a significant economic player, and source of energy).

Bring Turkey into the fold, demand and encourage improved governance (something the EU does very well), and what will the spill over effects by on Turkish relations with the (15 million) Kurds? On Jordan, Syria, Lebanon? Positive, I’m betting. (Not that governance is nearly as troublesome in Turkey as elsewhere.)

You’ll also be super-charging secular forces in Turkey, and helping them to (again/ further) marginalize Islamists.

So, for the trouble of confronting integration issues (long overdue), and bringing a vast number of eager, young workers in to fire up the economy, you get greater security. You’ll have reforms, working to your benefit, adopted by others, of their own volition.

Why not?

[quote=“SHARLEE”]You are off topic, this is not an imigration thread.

[b]Maybe you should start a thread on european benefits that you are so despising , retirement but also health care do not forget.

We do not need any lesson from America to think about our pensions future (again I should add this attitude of yours in the reasons why America is disliked thread)

I m proud to live in a european country where people who have no health care are not left without treatment for cancer. Now if that is not your view of humanity then I have nothing else to tell you and will ignore you[/b]

Back to what is happening in Turkey today and your views of should it be in the EU ?[/quote]

BTW, I really don’t know where this attack is coming from. Did I say I despised anything? And did I say anything about the American…anything?

I am jdsmith, not Fred Smith. :s :laughing:

[quote=“jdsmith”]
I am jdsmith, not Fred Smith. :s :laughing:[/quote]

:laughing:

[quote=“SHARLEE”]Migration is not the biggest effect of a country inclusion. Did the Spanish or portuguese went more abroad before or after their inclusion ? I think it was before when their country were not as economically developed as other european countries. Now that they have caught up thanks to EU fundings, people do not need to migrate for economical reason.

Will it be worth investing money in turkey ? Do we share common values and ideas ? (sharia laws?) can we secure our external borders ? what about a country that is non christian having more seats and power in the EU parliament because of its large and increasing population ? These are in my opinion issues far more important than imigration , this last topic already being a concern for others undevelopped countries in the mediterrenean area or africa and who are not seeking to be included in the EU[/quote]

Yes. You are right, once the Turk is allowed to work in the UK long enough to become a citizen and work their legally, he will after some time qualify for the pension and then go back to live in Turkey off the back of the original UK citizens (like Lebanese Australians that have gone back to Lebanon), so you’re right, net migration is probably minimal.

Having a Muslim country with a large amount of power in the EU could be a problem in terms of the Veto power it might wield when dealing with maniac Islamic countries further East.

I think the view that once Turkey is in, other countries further to the east joining later is an impossibility. So the argument of stablizing regions further east, given that Turkey is already stable is implausible. The only thing the EU countries like France need to do economically is free up the labour market and reduce farming subsidies. Afterall, thats whats destabilizing 3rd world countries. (That goes for the US too.) Australia only provides cheap loans to its farmers yet we compete on the open market. Why can’t you lot?

Ok it s not quite new (article below dating 3 years ago) but the problems are still there. Hence the demonstration of today (read article starting the topic about the fear of secular turkish people re the sharia laws )

dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1324102,00.html

Impression of adopting Islamic law

[quote]

Verheugen told the Turkish Vatan newspaper that if Turkey tries to include crimes that are not in other countries’ laws in its penal code, European Union countries could interpret this as Islamic law entering Turkish law. He added that he was not “defending adultery”, but said “Turkey should not give the impression… that it is introducing Islamic elements into its legal system while engaged in a great project such as the EU.” [/quote]

dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1324102,00.html

Honour crimes is still existing in Turkey.
So Jaboney, you see I probably have more in common with Polish people than with people perpetrating these crimes.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5285726.stm

[quote]
Turkish boys commit ‘honour’ crimes

Family honour remains a strong value in Turkey
Young children - in some cases a woman’s own son - have been used to carry out so-called “honour killings” in Turkey.
The duty of repairing the family’s reputation is often delegated to a youth, believing they will get the minimum jail sentence, the World Service’s Assignment programme has learned.

Women are the main victims of a practice which is at odds with the country’s pursuit of many Western standards and values as it seeks EU membership.

Despite the recent reform of Turkey’s penal code, honour killings have continued, mostly in the east of the country where ancient traditions are strong.
Fatal TV interview

A recent case was the murder of Birgul Isik, gunned down by her 14-year-old son Ramazan for apparently bringing shame on her family. She had appeared on a Turkish talk show to discuss her abusive marriage.

She had fled her violent, bigamous husband several times before. Ignored by the authorities and dismissed by her family, she agreed to appear on the Women’s Voice show.

Most men refer to honour as something to do with the women in their lives and particularly to do with women’s behaviour and their sexuality

Anne-Birgitte Albrectsen
UN Population Fund

But in Turkey, domestic violence is an issue few women would dare to discuss outside the family, let alone on national television. Back in her home town, for many Birgul had crossed the line.

She had just returned to Elazig in eastern Turkey by bus, accompanied by four of her five children after taking part in the programme in Istanbul.

Ramazan was waiting for her at the bus stop. When he saw her, he shouted that she had shamed the family, pulled out a gun and shot her five times.

Birgul died in hospital three weeks later.

Ramazan was placed in a juvenile detention centre and Birgul’s four other children in orphanages. Birgul’s husband was put on trial for incitement, but was later acquitted.

Delegating murder

Birgul’s killing by her own son follows a disturbing pattern. In some communities when a family believes that a woman has compromised their reputation, they decide on a punishment.

If the decision is that she should die, they often delegate the actual murder to an underage son or cousin, believing he will get a light sentence if caught.

Elazig, like many poor towns in eastern Turkey, is more conservative than the wealthier cities in the west, such as Istanbul or the capital Ankara.

There is no evidence of Turkish imams advocating honour killings

But even in those cities, where on the surface the younger generation appears more westernised, traditional values such as family honour remain strong.

Anne-Birgitte Albrectsen, a UN Population Fund representative in Ankara, has carried out an in-depth study into honour killings in Turkey.

She said: “Whether we have interviewed people in Istanbul or in the south-east of Turkey, most men at least refer to honour as something to do with the women in their lives and particularly to do with women’s behaviour and their sexuality.”

Her team’s research has attempted to establish how the practice fits in with Islam, the country’s main religion.

They found that while imams were not known to be advocating honour killings, their strict moral code meant that the general public might feel that Islam was actually condoning such practices.

Meanwhile, families who choose not to carry out an honour punishment find themselves, as well as any relatives, ostracised by their communities and have to move away.

Patriarchal bias

Honour killings happen in many other countries like Pakistan, Afghanistan and India, but Turkey is a nation where women have had the right to be educated, to work and to vote since the 1930s.

Yakin Erturk, the UN Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women, said the Turkish legal system was biased against women.

“A woman who has been assaulted is not considered a total woman, but the perpetrator is punished according to whether the woman was a virgin, married etc.”

A new penal code was introduced just over a year ago and was hailed by the government and the EU as a considerable improvement on the previous version.

“The law has changed, but to what extent have those applying the law changed?” Ms Erturk asks.

Moreover, while the new code criminalises custom killings, such as inter-tribal deaths, it makes no reference to honour killings.

Instead of telling people honour killings are illegal or un-Islamic, some politicians have tried to tackle the issue from an economic angle.

They tell communities that honour killings can tear families apart, putting men in jail and children on the street. [/quote]

I wish the EU can make things change there, but tradition will be hard to get rid of. At least not in the near future. And unless it has changed, I don t feel Europe has much in common with those practises.
Also as the article on the first page stated, the AKP party results are patchy .They say they are implementing reforms whereas in every day life there are more and more towns under the AKP enforcing strict alcohol forbidding laws or swimming pool hours for women and men.

Some people in Turkey are worried, why should we not in the rest of Europe ?