[quote=“Tyc00n”]I think the view that once Turkey is in, other countries further to the east joining later is an impossibility. So the argument of stablizing regions further east, given that Turkey is already stable is implausible. [/quote]No, no. The argument isn’t that Lebanon, Jordan, or Syria will join, but that the prosperity and stability Turkey enjoys will serve as a good example to them. Kind of like that Iraqi democracy spilling over to change the region, minus coercive force of arms and pie-in-the-sky idealism. Kind of like the prosperity that came in the wake of British social and market reforms influencing French politics: hardly decisive, but an influence and alternative nonetheless. If you build it, they might come. If they don’t, some of their more ambitious will. Either way, greater material prosperity won’t hurt.
[quote=“SHARLEE”]Ok it s not quite new but the problems are still there. Hence the demonstration of today (read article starting the topic about the fear of secular turkish people re the sharia laws )[/quote] Full stop. The fear of. Are there some people in Turkey who prefer Sharia? Yes. What of it? Are there some people in France who prefer the far right? Yes. How much do you have it common with them?
[quote=“SHARLEE”]I wish the EU can make things change there, but tradition will be hard to get rid of. At least not in the near future. And unless it has changed, I don t feel Europe has much in common with those practises.[/quote]I asked about the people, not all of their practices, and certainly the practices of a subset of those people. And the EU has made significant head way eliminating all sorts of distasteful practices–capital punishment–and traditions–say, a good war every generation between Austria, England, France, Germany or Italy.
Yeah dissemble it back into the EEC ( a group of trading partners). Get rid of the common currency and the fact that interest rates are dictated by the European Central Bank
And today’s twisted moral equivalency award goes to…
Jaboney!
Congratulations! Yes, you’ve hit the nail on the head. Conservative French Christians want to overthrow the French government and create a Christian theocracy…right? Of course they do! And we know that 25% of Turks support the creation of a Sharia state in Turkey, and so the same percentage of French people support a Christian theocracy in France, right? Of course they do! Congrats again!
Folks, stay tuned for next week when we’ll hold a contest to see who can best argue the Mongolian attack on Chengdu in 1279 -wherein the Mongols slaughtered every man, woman, and child of the 1.4 million-strong city- is morally equivalent to the Allied liberation of Paris in 1944. I don’t know about you folks, but I think I know who the winner is going to be!
“Conservative French Christians want to overthrow the French government and create a theocracy?” Really? Wow. See, I thought that battle had been won following the Dreyfus Affair. (Well, essentially won. Clean-up skirmishes followed through until the '50’s, but you know…)
But then, doing a little fact checking on what I see as the over-extension of the principle of “laïcité”, I found this: [quote]Laïcité is currently accepted by all of France’s mainstream religions. Exceptions include the far-right monarchist reactionaries, who wish the return to a situation where Catholicism was a state religion with a political role, as well as with some Islamist leaders who do not recognize the superiority of civil law over religious law.[/quote] I find that surprising, and I’d almost dismiss it out of hand as just another crazy wiki entry, but if you also say it’s so, well… maybe it’s more than the few nutters I had assumed.
Obviously I’m confused on a few points here. Please, be a good fellow and show me the way.
**psst. I’m aware of the differences in levels of popular support, and robustness of state institutions: that’s precisely why I support the prohibition against religious garb in Turkey, but oppose it in France. No need to rehash that.
The main issue here is if Turkey should enter the EU.
My opinion is a clear NO!
First of all, EU is a european club. We share a culture, a way of thinking, and we therefore don’t have that huge issues working together. The turks are neither europeans or Christians. Americans might not understand that, however if you are to build a state, starting out with a not too diverse group of people might be a good idea.
Secondly, the EU has been widened a fair bit recently, and it’s now time for them to get the deepening part of it back on track. Note that the pre-amble of the treaty of rome states that the goal of the EU is: :“An ever-closer union”. If the EU is to accomplish that, absorbing a huge underdeveloped poor rural turkey is not conductive to that goal.
Thirdly, if you are to enter the EU, you have to prove that you have a decent grip on human rights, and that rule of law is implemented properly. Turkey has neither.
so why all the crap about Turkey entering EU? Quite simple - this whole discussion is a north american fetish - a bit like europeans talking gun control. No connect with the realities on the ground whatsoever. First of all, you have a US who’s been unable to run a proper middle east policy for a very long time. You have islamist rising all over the middle east, due to US bungling Iraq rather badly. What’s the answer? Get a muslem success story? How? Let turkey into Europe?
The EU accession negotiations were started under a bit of pressure from good old US, using all the finesse of a class room bully. Eu assented not very willingly, and started them. In the very moment the US got too much on their plate, the negotiations stalled and later stopped. First of all it was very clear that Turkey was some 50 years away from fulfilling the most basic requirements. Secondly, selling Turkey’s EU accession in europe was bloody impossible for a host of reasons, including history, current integration problems with people of turkish descent etc.
I personally think that there is a more sinister reason for US and many americans enthusiam for an idea which is poorly thought out and which the US tried to impose on the EU. Until 2005 EU was deepening, and in trade was becoming a bloc to reckon with. Also, the EU and european countries were becoming increasingly assertive and independent from a US which seemed bogged down in problems of their own making. A continued deepening would as an end result have a strong political union, which in wealth and global influence might rival the US, and that would not be in the US narrow national interest. How do you derail that? Simple, you get them preoccupied with absorbing a big poor neighbor. Thus, internal bickering over the costs and immigration will keep the EU back for 50 years, if not for ever. US self serving as it has been so often in the past, not caring about the EU, or Turkey for that matter.
Also, note that the EU is doing a fair bit more to help Turkey modernize than what the ignorants on the wrong side of the atlantic thinks. Turkey has an association agreement, securing EU access for Turkish goods, and political consultation. It is not as good as full membership, however it achieves a fair bit of the obectives, Turkey would have by seeking EU membership.
Note also that the EU is not ready for another round of expansion. We have central Europe to get up to speed. Romania and Bulgaria just joined, and it will be decades before they can contribute anything of value, so they will be a drain on the EU for some time to come.
Secondly, in the EU a round of expansion is usually followed by a roudn of deepening, and now it’s time to get the EU as it is integrated further end deepend a few notches more.
Turkey’s posible EU assession as such has already hurted the EU. The EU constitution was rejected in no small part due to the french population de facto voting against Turkey joining, and it will be another 5 years, before a new treaty can be drawn up and implemented.
When it comes to immigration and the need to get more workers in - we got Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, and Central Europe, they have workers enough to last us a few decades.
And - Turkey into the EU as a way of integrating people of middle eastern descent? laughable, as first of all, integration in Europe should be on the “old” Europeans terms, secondly, the harder to integrate muslems are not all Turkish, as a matter of fact pakistanis are much harder to integrate.
[quote=“Mr He”]First of all, EU is a european club. We share a culture, a way of thinking, and we therefore don’t have that huge issues working together. The Turks are neither europeans or Christians. Americans might not understand that, however if you are to build a state, starting out with a not too diverse group of people might be a good idea.[/quote]See, those are reasons why I think it’s a good idea. But then, I come from a country that started with diversity, and embraces diversity, despite the headaches.
[quote=“Mr He”]Thirdly, if you are to enter the EU, you have to prove that you have a decent grip on human rights, and that rule of law is implemented properly. Turkey has neither.[/quote]LOL. And Greece had a proven track record of democracy and respect for human rights when it was admitted?
[quote=“Mr He”] First of all it was very clear that Turkey was some 50 years away from fulfilling the most basic requirements. Secondly, selling Turkey’s EU accession in europe was bloody impossible for a host of reasons, including history, current integration problems with people of turkish descent etc.[/quote]Again, reasons to bring them in. The process will move that timeline from 50 years to 10 or 15, and compel Europe to deal with, or get over the problems you point to.
[quote=“Mr He”]I personally think that there is a more sinister reason for US and many Americans enthusiam for an idea which is poorly thought out and which the US tried to impose on the EU.[/quote] That’s’ great. And what’s the reason for this Canadian’s enthusiasm, dear Dr.?
[quote=“Mr He”]The main issue here is if Turkey should enter the EU.
First of all, EU is a european club. We share a culture, a way of thinking, and we therefore don’t have that huge issues working together. The Turks are neither europeans or Christians.[/quote]
I won’t agree with that. For a start we speak different languages, have different education systems, different sub groups of Christianity (that people have been fighting over in different areas of Europe for the last 400 years), different TV programmes, different ways of looking at stuff.
The EU was founded on economic intergration not shared culture
There is also a disenfrancished group of people, who are not integrated into society (people like those who burned cars in Paris), who live in the EU. The are disenfrancished not because they are incapable of being integrated but because governments are not intergrating them.
European expansion seems to be hindered by some of the founding members, who think they are loosing importance and power, by further expansion of the EU
In the us or Canada, a vast majority of the population are immigrants, so your outlook is different. If you look at the average European country, the vast majority of people descends from people who have stayed there 10,000 years - the ownership feel etc. are different. Europe is not a continent half empty looking for suitable inhabitants, we are already full, thank you.
They came out of a military dictaturship at the time, yes. However they were an integral part of Europe, and that makes a difference. They gained their freedom in 1836 by fighting the turks and receiving support from the rest of Europe, and yes, mentally you are looking at a gap there.
Also, Greece is small, however turkey is big, integrating greece was easy, but integrating turkey is hard.
No, I don;t think we can integrate Turkey in 10 years, as well, they have 25% of the population of what the rich Europe footing the bill has, and the general mindset is very very different. When it comes to dealing with the problems created by muslem immigration - as I said, if they want to integrate, they bloody learn to play by the rules. They are set by the original inhabitants, and that’s it.
For you I think the main reason is a lack of knowledge of Europe with a fair bit of naivety added in. Honestly. That you even dare to suggest that EUROPE is to expand their union beyond their natural borders in order to cater to some stupid bubbly idea hatched with no regard to the politics and culture of the intended recipients smacks of arrogance, mental imperialism and sheer stupidity.
[quote=“TNT”][quote=“Mr He”]The main issue here is if Turkey should enter the EU.
First of all, EU is a european club. We share a culture, a way of thinking, and we therefore don’t have that huge issues working together. The Turks are neither europeans or Christians.[/quote]
I won’t agree with that. For a start we speak different languages, have different education systems, different sub groups of Christianity (that people have been fighting over in different areas of Europe for the last 400 years), different TV programmes, different ways of looking at stuff.
The EU was founded on economic intergration not shared culture
There is also a disenfrancished group of people, who are not integrated into society (people like those who burned cars in Paris), who live in the EU. The are disenfrancished not because they are incapable of being integrated but because governments are not intergrating them.
European expansion seems to be hindered by some of the founding members, who think they are losing importance and power, by further expansion of the EU[/quote]
Culture played a role, and the role of culture is if anything increasing in the EU. Look at programs like Erasmus in order to get a grip on that. Increasing the integration on each level is a major goal of the EU.
And yes, the EU was founded in order to avoid a war between the major European powers every generation, and it has worked. What separates Eu as it is with Turkey is that the EU is at least nominally Christian, meaning that you do have a minimum of shared values across the board.
On the issue of integrating muslems - well - you got it dead wrong. It’s up to them to integrate, not the other way around. I worked for muslems back home, and they were well integrated. They achieved that by knowing where they were and knowing that they had to subscribe to the values of the society they immigrated to in order to suceed. It’s easy - especially when located in the US or Canada - to place the onus on the recepients, however they came to our playground, and they have to abide by the rules, which are not racist, however which require them to actually try to fit in.
[quote=“Mr He”]In the us or Canada, a vast majority of the population are immigrants, so your outlook is different. If you look at the average European country, the vast majority of people descends from people who have stayed there 10,000 years - the ownership feel etc. are different. Europe is not a continent half empty looking for suitable inhabitants, we are already full, thank you. [/quote]Yeah, yeah. We have people who feel the same way in Quebec. Ever so precious.
For you I think the main reason is a lack of knowledge of Europe with a fair bit of naivety added in. Honestly. That you even dare to suggest that EUROPE is to expand their union beyond their natural borders in order to cater to some stupid bubbly idea hatched with no regard to the politics and culture of the intended recipients smacks of arrogance, mental imperialism and sheer stupidity.[/quote]:roflmao: That’s great! Save that I didn’t cook up the plan, those who did are Europeans (able to look beyond the borders of their storybook Danish village, and not spitting mad over the dark immigrants spoiling the view), and in addition to my own studies, I’ve edited numerous dissertations and book chapters specifically addressing Turkish-E.U. relations (and yet I’m neither so arrogant, nor ignorant, as to believe that does more than inform… doesn’t provide answers). Try again? Perhaps with a little more sense and less venom this time?
And so what. Europe is not yours to decide over, and your opinions matter less than any EU citizen with the right to vote.
Are you calling me a racist?
There is one hell of a difference between not wanting Turkey into the EU and moaning about people of another color ruining the view or whatever you imply, you little dipshit.
Also, there is a hell of a difference between believing that minorities are to integrate and racism, believe it or not. I judge my fellow human beings on how hard to work on their situation, and not on how much a bunch of well-meaning idiots want to “help” them and take their demands into special consideration.
Arrogance - you have it, and no, you might have edited some papers from some pie in the sky academics, however that does not give you any clue about what’s possible or desirable from a European point of view.
I am against Turkey ever entering the EU, however there are very heavy economic and political reasons weighting against.
Like:
Integrating Turkey’s farmers into the EU agricultural system. (You bet the turks are going to love this one). You are looking at dozens of billions of US$ on this account alone. Try to sell tht to me - or to the EU taxpayer.
Human rights - Turkey is still way behind. At least Spain, Greece and Portugal cleaned up their act before they came knocking on the door.
The economy - Turkey has a GDP per capita of what? US$8,900? That’s a fair bit below the batch of applicants taken in since 1995. You want them to compete against the rest of Europe?
EU is a Christian club, born after the second world war, with th3e explicit goal of helping Europe to heal, and also to punch at its weight in the world. it has absorbed and paid out a fair bit to get Central Europe back into shape after the fall of the Berlin wall, and you want them to increase the burden?
so far, I have seen arrogance, stupidity and naivity in your replies. If you learned anything from your editing, show it.
[quote=“Mr He”]And so what. Europe is not yours to decide over, and your opinions matter less than any EU citizen with the right to vote.[/quote]You’re doing very well at throwing up the walls today. Should this discussion be taking place in an EU-only forum?
[quote=“Mr He”][quote=“Jaboney”]:roflmao: That’s great! Save that I didn’t cook up the plan, those who did are Europeans (able to look beyond the borders of their storybook Danish village, and not spitting mad over the dark immigrants spoiling the view), and in addition to my own studies, I’ve edited numerous dissertations and book chapters specifically addressing Turkish-E.U. relations (and yet I’m neither so arrogant, nor ignorant, as to believe that does more than inform… doesn’t provide answers). Try again? Perhaps with a little more sense and less venom this time? [/quote]Are you calling me a racist?[/quote]Actually, I’m referring to first-hand reports from people whose opinions and intelligence I respect regarding current tensions in Denmark, specifically referring to your nation’s difficulties integrating Pakistani immigrants.
Are you from a storybook village?
[quote=“Mr He”]There is one hell of a difference between not wanting Turkey into the EU and moaning about people of another color ruining the view or whatever you imply, you little dipshit.[/quote]Yes, there is. There’s also a difference between advocating a policy because you think it’d be good for you, good for your friend, or it’s merely an outgrowth of dark psychological processes. There’s also differences between Americans, Canadians, and Mexicans, though we’re all North Americans. Thus, I encouraged you to try presenting your argument again (and demonstrated that blanket statements and accusations don’t take us far.)
And for what it’s worth, I was very thin as a child–thus a “dipstick”–but I’ve since filled out. I’ve never been used to measure the depth of filth in a cesspool, and thus, am not a “dipshit”.
btw, I see that your name’s still in [color=green]green[/color]. Is the moderator’s hat feeling a little tight today, or has the policy that moderators hold themselves to a higher standard been set aside?
[quote=“Mr He”]Arrogance - you have it, and no, you might have edited some papers from some pie in the sky academics, however that does not give you any clue about what’s possible or desirable from a European point of view.[/quote]Yes, yes… I’ve been told that I’m arrogant. Again, and again, and again. I’m arrogant, an elitist, a country bumpkin, a dipshit engrish teacher. Anything else?
Have I represented myself as speaking from a European perspective? What makes you think those academics are pie in the sky… perhaps their feet are firmly on the ground, and opposed to Turkey joining. If you’ve going to get all pissy, at least try to hit the target. I write from my own perspective, with a view to what I see as being in the best interest of all concerned. I utterly reject your apparent contention that anyone not of the EU is categorically disqualified from voicing an opinion, or that such opinions are inherently of lesser value. Deal with it, or ignore my posts.
[quote=“Mr He”]
I am against Turkey ever entering the EU, however there are very heavy economic and political reasons weighting against.[/quote]Reason! Hurrah! Thank you.
[quote=“Mr He”]1. Integrating Turkey’s farmers into the EU agricultural system. (You bet the Turks are going to love this one). You are looking at dozens of billions of US$ on this account alone. Try to sell tht to me - or to the EU taxpayer.[/quote]Alternatively, the EU and US might finally agree to scrap their outrageous agricultural subsidies. It’ll still cost a great deal to bring the infrastructure up to snuff, but I believe it’s fair to consider that an investment rather than an ongoing loss.
[quote=“Mr He”]2. Human rights - Turkey is still way behind. At least Spain, Greece and Portugal cleaned up their act before they came knocking on the door.[/quote]Turkey is behind, but this will help them to catch up, and the examples you cite weren’t exactly squeaky clean by the time they got it. One European measure of respect for human rights is abolition of the death penalty, and that’s been taken care of on the eve before, hasn’t it?
[quote=“Mr He”]3. The economy - Turkey has a GDP per capita of what? US$8,900? That’s a fair bit below the batch of applicants taken in since 1995. You want them to compete against the rest of Europe?[/quote] Check out the rates. Turkey lags far behind even the Baltic states, but they got in. Also, have a look at growth rates among traditional economic losers.
[quote=“Mr He”]4. EU is a Christian club, born after the second world war, with the explicit goal of helping Europe to heal, and also to punch at its weight in the world. it has absorbed and paid out a fair bit to get Central Europe back into shape after the fall of the Berlin wall, and you want them to increase the burden?[/quote]It’s a Christian club, is it? Is that why it took so long to step in when Yugoslavia went south? Why Albanian is allowed to lagger? Why there’s so much trouble integrating Muslims, or a rise in antisemitism?
I want Europe to aspire to greater things. Having provided a model–exportable or not–for other common markets and unions, I want to see it show up this clash of civilizations bs for the intellectual fraud that it is.
I’d also like you to acknowledge that Europe hasn’t grown by absorbing the best and fully mature, but adopting problematic but promising members and mentoring them.
[quote=“Mr He”]so far, I have seen arrogance, stupidity and naivity in your replies. If you learned anything from your editing, show it.[/quote]:lol: Surely you’re capable of more than this, aren’t you? Well, I hope that you are… admittedly that’s an opinion based on faith, having no past evidence to support it.
The tensions are mainly created by the immigrants themselves. If they integrate, IE start to subscribe to the values most Danes subscribe to, IE gender equality, democracy, freddom of speech, etc. those tensions would be reduced a great deal.
Less than you are from an ivory tower.
I already did, however if your reading is impaired, pleace read the excellent article in wikipedia on the subject.
That should provide you with the bare minimum of facts needed for you to have an opinion on this matter.
OK, let’s see how much Turkey is interested in playing by the EU roles. You rent a sailboat in cyprus and sail it to say Izmir. Don’t forget the greek cypriot flag. According to the 1995 customs union between the EU and Turkey, you should be able to moor with no problem. However, you are likely to find yourself moored in a jail.
OK, let’s see recent developments on the human rights front in Turkey, say Article 301 of the Turkish penal code:
[quote]A person who publicly denigrates Turkishness, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey, shall be punishable by imprisonment of between six months and three years.
A person who publicly denigrates the Government of the Republic of Turkey, the judicial institutions of the State, the military or security organizations shall be punishable by imprisonment of between six months and two years.
In cases where denigration of Turkishness is committed by a Turkish citizen in another country the punishment shall be increased by one third. [/quote]
I guess that you don’t know that this law was passed AFTER the ban on the death penalty, after the EU told Turkey to clean up their act on the human rights issues, and more or less at the same time as the government of Turkey started to believe that things were moving to slowly, and that they were forced to sell out the family silver.
[quote=“Jaboney”] And for what it’s worth, I was very thin as a child–thus a “dipstick”–but I’ve since filled out. I’ve never been used to measure the depth of filth in a cesspool, and thus, am not a “dipshit”?
OK, btw, I see that your name’s still in [color=green]green[/color]. Is the moderator’s hat feeling a little tight today, or has the policy that moderators hold themselves to a higher standard been set aside??[/quote]
OK, I will call you an idiot and fool instead. Happy? And when it comes to your snide remark regarding us don’t liking our views destroyed by having people of the “wrong” color around - the racism issue was brought up by you, and if that’s all you can do, god riddance to you. Little value, you can contribute with in this discussion.
And no, given the shite you are posting I see no problem in calling you on it - no matter what color my name stands in.
Add idiot.
I still can’t see that you ahve anything of value to contribute, however if you want to know what the europeans as a whole thinks, it might be of interest to you that a majority of eu citizens are dead against Turkey ever getting in. As some EU counries are planning referendums on Turkey’s accession, their opinion will matter. Yours won’t. Live with it.
As I have mentioned a few times, there is no way - repeat no way that Turkey will be allowed to join the EU if say the people of the EU has a say. Turkey is too different, too poor, and from a different culture circle, so their accession will change the EU and not for the better.
I am against the agricultural subsidies as well, however they are here to stay. For Turkey, as earlier for Greece, Spain, and Poland, a lack of subsidies will mean that their unemployment will go through the roof, as their farm sector which employs more than a third of their population will take a very nasty hit.
The infrastructure - yes it’s an investment, however the EU is currently looking at pumping billions into central europe and the balkans, and there’s not that much cash to go around.
Look above, human rights violations are still deeply embedded in the Turkish penal code. And currently, Turkey is sliding backwards.
OK, once They get up to where say Greece was when they were let in, the EU can start thinking about it.
I find it appaling and a lack of skill that the turkish economic growth has been so lackluster as it has been. They have been associated to the EU since 1963, and they have had a customs union iwth the EU since 1995, and they have had quite a few nasty meltdowns in that period.
if you compare that to Central Europe, where they reformed like crazy post 1989, and actually got their economies very dynamic, you are only seeing short spurts of that in Turkey.
Central Europe was also different - they are in the geograpical heart of Europe, so they got in some 10-15 years before the economic figures were completely up to it.
Again, you misunderstand things about the EU a little bit, or should I say a lot?
Countries don’t get let into the EU as a motivation to start getting their economies going and their legal systems and human rights abuses sorted out. They get in once they have completed that process. The EU is not a welfare agency.
I don’t know where you get that bullshit with antisemitism in Europe from. There is little of that - i would think less than the crazed militias you have running around in the forests of north america, wowing to keep akerica white or whatever. i have lived and Travelled in Europe most of my life, and anti-semitism is simply not on. Also, I can’t see what that has to do with Turkey and the EU. Are you running out of arguments?
The trouble integrating say some Pakistanis is as much a result of faile dsocial policies and those minorities refusal to integrate than the other way around. Europe is a place with an old host population, who feel an ownership for their country, and who want to decide what the culture of that country is. Immigrants must understand that.
That’s not the goal of the EU. If the EU is to survive, we have to deepen rather than widen.
Sure, marginal jokers such as Tony Blair and George Bush want Turkey into the EU, however their goal is to use the added diversity to destroy the state building project the EU is, not to promote it.
Nope, I can’t acknowledge that. Spain, Portugal, and Greece had democratized before they got in, and their economies were well under way.
Central Europe had to wait 10 years and show performance, before they were let in.
What mentoring there is comes though the applicant’s adoption of the acquis communautaire, IE the rules and regulations all EU countries have agreed on. It took Poland what 6 years?
Out of the 35 chapters of the AC, the Turks have managed to get through one, so at that speed, they are looking at being let in in 2075.
Now it’s time for you to show what you are capable of - I have seen little but hot air from so far.
Most EU countries are based on the teritiary or services industry
Yeah but the EU is about money. EU foreign policy is against torture eventhough some EU countries were turning a blind eye to extraordinary rendition. Human rights seem to be bragging rights. Do you think France had any reservations when they were selling weapons and nuclear technology to Iraq and Iran
Maybe and lets take an example. Ireland has a Income Per Capita of US40,610 (Denmark is higher). If I was a company I would be looking to move my company somewhere cheaper in the EU.
Q: How do you compete and trip up the competition? A: Just don’t let them in the race
The EU was set up to prevent war, not as a way to fall in love with eachother. Interest rates were reduced by the ECB for years to allow Germany(the eastern part) to get back on track. And now Germany is doing well.
[quote=“Mr He”]I am against Turkey ever entering the EU, however there are very heavy economic and political reasons weighting against.
Like:
Integrating Turkey’s farmers into the EU agricultural system. (You bet the Turks are going to love this one). You are looking at dozens of billions of US$ on this account alone. Try to sell tht to me - or to the EU taxpayer.
Human rights - Turkey is still way behind. At least Spain, Greece and Portugal cleaned up their act before they came knocking on the door.
The economy - Turkey has a GDP per capita of what? US$8,900? That’s a fair bit below the batch of applicants taken in since 1995. You want them to compete against the rest of Europe?
EU is a Christian club, born after the second world war, with the explicit goal of helping Europe to heal, and also to punch at its weight in the world. it has absorbed and paid out a fair bit to get Central Europe back into shape after the fall of the Berlin wall, and you want them to increase the burden?
so far, I have seen arrogance, stupidity and naivity in your replies. If you learned anything from your editing, show it.[/quote]
You can add me with a “No, better not have Turkey join anytime soon”. And pretty much for the same reasons.
The EU is already pretty busy doing the heavy lifting of the economic transformation of the former Warshaw Pact States. That’s enough of a development program for the near future, taxing the EU already … adding Turkey may overtax it.
And already this broadening of the EU has to be done without proper deepening of its basic institutions. It was already bad enough before the Eastern Bloc had to be somehow caught up. So having an institutional crisis and ex Soviet economies to integrate and to all of that we shall now add the troubles of also adding a culture at odds with Europe for how many centuries already?
Thanks, but no thanks … and the same goes to lifting a Muslim nation onto the bandwaggon of modernity.
Muslim immigrants have so far not made a reputation of themselves as being entirely unproblematic. One may of course cite “it is just a minority” of those Muslim immigrants, but fact remains: it is across the broad in EU countries that it is Muslim minorites that end up as troublemakers. You may get a report here or there about some other group of immigrants getting into trouble … but these all remain on the level of “once here a bit, once there a bit, nothing out of the ordinary”. With Muslims though: time and again, every state, every month. Short of a sinister right-wing media conspiracy what other explaination remains than: seems Muslim communities have a tendency to produce a remarkable high share of troublemakers.
Russians, Poles, Italians, Chinese, South Americans … they all have shown they can integrate themselves here without causing undue troubles. And given how liberal Europe is (gay marriages, smoking, freedom of speech, free arts, seperation of church and state etc. etc.) why shouldn’t they. It is not that we really ask someone to take over our faith or food or whatnot. Just playing by the rules and keep to yourself is usually enough. Apparently asked too much from a certain segment of our Muslim immigrants time and again. Go figure.
So based on that comparison of track records: thanks for Romania or Bulgaria, but no thanks to a Turkish integration into Europe based on mismatching cultures.
Of all Muslim countries Turkey may have covered most of the ground to change from a medieval Muslim society into something remotely resembling a modern state. Right now they seem to need occasional military intervention bordering on coups to do so. It is of course nice to hear that there is a secular military branch keeping Islamist nonsense in check. But that’s hardly enough to make me now all elated about the state of affairs in Turkey.
Only thing I disagree with is that Europe is foremost a Christian club. Maybe 300 years ago, but what it is now is rather a post enlightment club, which left its religious mumbo-jumbo ages behind in favour of rediscovering old Roman and Greek science and reason.
But all in all this does not change my oppinion: Turkey? Ask again in a generation - 2037 would be just fine.[/i]
But how have all these people (even the turks or maybe I should label them all as muslims for the benefit of this thread) been integrated so well into the USA or integrated themselves into the USA.
There is an election in 3 weeks in Ireland. 9/10% of the population of Ireland are emigrants. Ireland has intergration problems, but those who do not wish to integrate have not yet caused a problem The parties running for the election campagin do not includee them or their concerns. There may be trouble ahead for Ireland
Integrating Turkey’s farmers into the EU agricultural system. (You bet the Turks are going to love this one). You are looking at dozens of billions of US$ on this account alone. Try to sell tht to me - or to the EU taxpayer.
[/quote]
Whos going to complain about that?
Most EU countries are based on the teritiary or services industry[/quote]
What are you talking about? Agricultural subsidies have to be funded. Pls. explain.
Maybe and lets take an example. Ireland has a Income Per Capita of US40,610 (Denmark is higher). If I was a company I would be looking to move my company somewhere cheaper in the EU.
Q: How do you compete and trip up the competition? A: Just don’t let them in the race[/quote]
Haha, off the mark. You don;'t have all that much FDI into Turkey, as it’s not a very stable economy. Overseas FDI into cheaper production locales relative to the EU usually goes into the still cheap Central Europe and the Bulgaria/Romania. They are already members of the EU, and therefore part of the inner market.
Also, you have a customs union between Turkey and the EU, so exporting from Turkey into the EU is very easy.
[quote=“TNT”]
The EU was set up to prevent war, not as a way to fall in love with eachother. Interest rates were reduced by the ECB for years to allow Germany(the eastern part) to get back on track. And now Germany is doing well.[/quote]
Well, supporting and pumping money into Central Europe didn’t stop with for thrmer East Germany. You still have Poland, Czech republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia, Bulgaria, romania, latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia, plus generous support to Croatia, Albania, Bosnia, etc, which needs to be paid. The US is contributing with lots of rethoric, the paying of the bill is done by the EU. And we are talking about rather substantial sums.
And no, you are off the mark, the EU was set up to prevent war, but getting Germans end French to cooperate and get them to know each other - IE fall in love with each other, and it has suceeded very well.
[quote=“TNT”]
But how have all these people (even the Turks or maybe I should label them all as muslims for the benefit of this thread) been integrated so well into the USA or integrated themselves into the USA.[/quote]
to be honest, you are talking out of your arse. First of all, you have mosques preaching the same terrorist crap as they are doing in Europe, secondly the relative numbers of people of a middle eastern background in the US is a fair bit lower than it is in Germany.
Also, you compare an non-immigrant society with an immigrant one, which is like comparing pears and apples.
That’s’ great. And what’s the reason for this Canadian’s enthusiasm, dear Dr.?
Save that I didn’t cook up the plan, those who did are Europeans (able to look beyond the borders of their storybook Danish village, and not spitting mad over the dark immigrants spoiling the view), and in addition to my own studies, I’ve edited numerous dissertations and book chapters specifically addressing Turkish-E.U. relations (and yet I’m neither so arrogant, nor ignorant, as to believe that does more than inform… doesn’t provide answers). Try again? Perhaps with a little more sense and less venom this time?
Save that I didn’t cook up the plan, those who did are Europeans (able to look beyond the borders of their storybook Danish village, and not spitting mad over the dark immigrants spoiling the view), and in addition to my own studies, I’ve edited numerous dissertations and book chapters specifically addressing Turkish-E.U. relations (and yet I’m neither so arrogant, nor ignorant, as to believe that does more than inform… doesn’t provide answers). Try again? Perhaps with a little more sense and less venom this time? [/quote]Are you calling me a racist?[/quote]Actually, I’m referring to first-hand reports from people whose opinions and intelligence I respect regarding current tensions in Denmark, specifically referring to your nation’s difficulties integrating Pakistani immigrants.