Did I say “on this forum”? No, I didn’t. Nice try though.
And how do you know the same isn’t true for those you’ve accused of being worthless nihilists based on little more than the fact they disagree (quite vigorously, and yes, on occasions idiotically) with you politically?
Then Tetsuo go back to any bar in Taipei or dinner party or meeting of any kind and start saying you support George Bush and the Republican Party and then go back to the same groups and say you are a Democrat who supported Kerry. I believe that you will find a vast difference in who is willing to listen to your views. So that was my point all along.
Then, let’s look at the Right and let’s look at the Left. What has the Right done recently and what has the Left done recently? How’s that? You can squirm but you don’t have the same expertise or experience as Rascal. Tell me what the Left has done to help Afghan refugees or Iraqi citizens or those in Rwanda, Kosovo, Bosnia, Sudan. I will hold my breath waiting. haha
It’s not acceptable when Republicans beat their children or wife, commit rape and murder, etc. The fascinating and very eye-opening thing is that you seem to feel similarly violated when you’re challenged at dinner parties.
Yes, but in a bit of private property to which law-abiding members of the public have access. He was doing nothing more than shopping.
Show me a rule that the mall was enforcing. Seems a lot like they made up a rule on the spot.
Once the police started enforcing the mall manger’s whims, it did. Hauling a man off to jail for wearing a T-shirt purchased in the mall put government square in the picture. Police all the time can decide not to arrest people – I’ve seen enough episodes of “Cops” (and gotten away with enough speeding warnings 
) to claim otherwise.
Great. Let’s not backslide.
Circumstances would indicate that the mall had no “dress code” of any kind. The issue wasn’t whether this gentleman was going to wear home his recent Victoria’s Secret purchase, it was his wearing a quite-unrevealing T-shirt advocating a sentiment (i.e., peace on earth) normally advocated by mainstream religious congregations across the nation.
I am very tolerant, and so you must be thinking of a different “leftie posse” – the best way is to look at the markings on the backs of our jackets. My and my ilk would never call you or anyone a “fucking cunt”. Remember, whenever possible I don’t use swearwords to refer to other posters, even when they PM me with phrases such as “fucking asshole.” Now, that said, I will also not likely be compared with a Nazi anytime soon, either – I do not advocate needless war, the restriction of American liberties, or massive fiscal irresponsibility. Hmmm… I sound like an old-school Republican almost!
except that which has been provided above re: the police hauling away a man for wearing an inofffensive T-shirt…
Are you sure that’s all you said? 
Try wearing a T-shirt in America these days.
Why, indeed? Step into the light.
Come now, when you started up your Noam Chompsky thread, didn’t I spend adequate time ridiculing him? One might as well overly generalize that the Republicans spend way too much time idolizing champions of eugenics or, like the head of my campus’ College Republicans, fantasizing about how the National Socialists could take power in Washington.
My good works are everywhere. Sliced bread? The internet? Hundreds of satisfied eaters of steaks? Ha!
I don’t yell “fuck the system” – I simply have high expectations of the system’s participants. Bush has been a disappointment from day one, not because of his choice to be a “divider” in our nation but because he strikes me as a lazy leader who doesn’t force the people working for him to struggle with coming up with intelligent, disciplined, and well-thought solutions. His taking too many vacations is only the tip of the iceberg – it is merely a symptom of a man who doesn’t really care about doing a good job for the country. His favorite expression is to say how he’s “showing leadership”, but it would be nice if he would once in a while actually simply be a leader.
“The Right” and “The Left” have both done absolutely shit to help any of those people. Individuals from both sides have however. Some people are actually capable of seperating their political affiliation from their desire to do good, you know.
All I’m saying is that by painting the entire opposition with the same brush, you’re not only being ignorant, but doing exactly the same thing as you keep calling them on doing.
As I’ve said all along - there are good, rational, sane, and humane people on both sides of the political spectrum, just as there are complete idiotic dipshits on both sides. Unfortunately it’s human nature to remember the negative more than the positive.
Oh, and on the “What has the Left done?” thing - while I don’t know enough about the specifics of the places you mentioned, I can give one very concrete example - the independence of East Timor. You know, the place that the US had nothing to do with liberating, but good ol’ Lefty New Zealand (and make no mistake about it, by US standards, we are well Left) and Australia did with next to no help, if any, from the Good Ol’ Liberators of the US.
Tetsuo:
Glad you remember East Timor because so apparently does al Qaeda and the reason Australia is being targeted is because of their involvement in freeing a territory from Muslim rule. Besides, military action seems to well wrong doesn’t it? Be sure and remind al Qaeda that New Zealand was involved too. Do so bravely and trumpet your involvement and see what happens. Shall we do so together now since you are so proud of this fact.
NEW ZEALAND WAS INVOLVED IN EAST TIMOR
NEW ZEALAND WAS INVOLVED IN EAST TIMOR
NEW ZEALAND WAS INVOLVED IN EAST TIMOR
HELLO AL QAEDA? ARE YOU LISTENING?
NEW ZEALAND WAS INVOLVED IN EAST TIMOR
NEW ZEALAND WAS INVOLVED IN EAST TIMOR
NEW ZEALAND WAS INVOLVED IN EAST TIMOR
So, how are you feeling? Pretty brave yet? Want to repeat the above and see if it attracts any attention. That is what we Americans put up with each and every day when our good acts are thrown in our faces by the concerned citizens of nations whose only claim to fame is how often they meet and how often they discuss and how often they negotiate. But we do pay each and every day as terrorists target us for our heinous acts.
By the way, how’s the UN doing about getting the slaughter in Sudan stopped? How’re the French doing in Cote d’Ivoire? What are we to think of the deafening media silence?
We have 24,000 deaths in Iraq and constant media coverage which blames Bush for doing nothing to restore security or for having the wrong plan but pray tell me hasn’t France been in Cote d’Ivoire for a while. When are the elections? When will the violence end? What is the UN plan for Sudan? When will they take care of the problem that has resulted in hundreds of thousands of dead?
Blasphemy is my specialty.
Your wish is my command
BTW: Can we stop these negative feelings towards the left? I am left and liberal too, u know. Granted, I am quite confused lately since I switch my views on our war in Iraq, and am frustrated because I don’t know if I should go right or stay left.
MFGR:
Well please explain to me how the man’s constitutional rights were infringed. I don’t see it. Was he treated unfairly? Perhaps, but still this is not a question of constitutional rights by any stretch of the imagination. Again, we have Jose Padilla. Great that Rascal is so concerned about this one person. Can we hope that he will now be a regular poster targeting the abuses that Human Rights have identified as extensive against immigrants in Germany as well as asylum seekers. haha
[quote=“mofangongren”]
Once the police started enforcing the mall manger’s whims, it did. Hauling a man off to jail for wearing a T-shirt purchased in the mall put government square in the picture. Police all the time can decide not to arrest people – I’ve seen enough episodes of “Cops” (and gotten away with enough speeding warnings 
) to claim otherwise.[/quote]
I don’t think there’s much the police can do there. Either way they have to get him off the property. What are they going to do, drag him off the mall then release him? I think that will get the police into more trouble.
It is different from a simple traffic ticket, because there are two sides involved. The manager insisted, and the man insisted. With both sides insisting, the police will have to act according to their rules, even if they don’t want to, and the law was on the manager’s side.
I know because I been throught very similiar crap. The police came, said to me it’s better for me to leave. I was pretty pissed off at the time, thought the whole thing was such bullshit, and said why the hell should I leave. Needless to say I got my ass draq off to the station, finger printed and pictures taken, spend a night in jail, sleeping on the overcrowded floors with people smoking pots next to me, court hearing next morning, some community service afterwards, then have go back to the court again to show that I had done my community service to get the whole thing over with.
In the station I talked with the police, I talked him through the whole thing and he was pretty much on my side, because it was really bullshit, but nontheless the point was if someone refused to leave there’s nothing they can do.
[quote=“fred smith”]Tetsuo:
Glad you remember East Timor because so apparently does al Qaeda and the reason Australia is being targeted is because of their involvement in freeing a territory from Muslim rule. Besides, military action seems to well wrong doesn’t it? Be sure and remind al Qaeda that New Zealand was involved too. Do so bravely and trumpet your involvement and see what happens. Shall we do so together now since you are so proud of this fact.
New Zealand WAS INVOLVED IN EAST TIMOR
New Zealand WAS INVOLVED IN EAST TIMOR
New Zealand WAS INVOLVED IN EAST TIMOR
HELLO AL QAEDA? ARE YOU LISTENING?
New Zealand WAS INVOLVED IN EAST TIMOR
New Zealand WAS INVOLVED IN EAST TIMOR
New Zealand WAS INVOLVED IN EAST TIMOR
So, how are you feeling? Pretty brave yet? Want to repeat the above and see if it attracts any attention.[/quote]
I will, and I do so proudly. You hear that world?
NEW ZEALAND WAS INVOLVED IN EAST TIMOR
NEW ZEALAND WAS INVOLVED IN EAST TIMOR
NEW ZEALAND WAS INVOLVED IN EAST TIMOR
Oh no! Now the Bogeyman’s gonna get me!
Oh, and I don’t recall Al Qaeda, nor any of their spokesmen, ever saying that, by the way. I do recall them whining about Australia’s involvement in Iraq, but if East Timor pissed them off it took them a bloody long time to notice. I’m quite ready to be corrected though, if you can.
Also, by the way, there’s a world of difference between what happened with East Timor and what America is doing in Iraq, by the way. The UN force in East Timor was led by Australia, with troops from Australia, New Zealand, Britain, Thailand, and about 200 US troops providing logistical and communications support. The operation begain in September 20, 1999, and the troops met with no resistance from militias or from the Indonesian military, although there were numerous attacks on the operation later. Now let’s see… it was an act to defend a newly independent nation which was right on our doorstep, with the goodwill of all sides, and with no occupation or control, however temporary, of the East Timorese government by any foreign power involved in the UN operation.
Oh, and by the way, please find the post where I said that “military action seems wrong”. I have no problem with appropriately used military action, and my only qualms with the Iraq operation are that it was poorly executed and planned (and as a subset of the execution, poorly timed). I’ve said that ever since the war began, and I stick to it now.
Diddums.
Did I say anything at all about any of that? No, I didn’t. You just asked “What has the Left done recently” and I gave one example. You’re not pulling me into your little game of changing the subject when you get served.
I don’t know. Why don’t you tell us? You’re the only one who keeps bringing it up when you’ve got no comeback for people who actually answer your little “questions” about the uselessness of the Left.
Yep, yeah they have. Your point?
No idea. You?
Well, the difference here is that the UN didn’t invade Sudan and then have no idea what to do with it afterward.
I’d love to know the answer to that one myself. They should bloody well pull finger and get in to it.
Now, I know you’re going to try and pull me up on the fact that I am about to state:
The UN are being pussies about the Sudan thing, and even the Ivory Coast thing.
But I know that no matter what mud you try and throw at me for saying that and still being opposed to the Iraq war when and how it happened, there’s absolutely nothing you can throw that’ll stick. But I look forward to seeing you try.
Here’s how easy it is to be a Republican nowadays:
frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=15855
[quote]Chris Finarelli could barely believe his own eyes last Wednesday. As Vice President of the College Republican Club at San Francisco State University, Finarelli showed up at the student union building that morning to help table and distribute literature to solicit new club members after President Bush
My heart bleeds for you, really it does.
Now if both sides could actually settle down and get to work, maybe something, you know, constructive could happen. Unfortunately the diehards on both sides will never give an inch to either side, which basically screws things up for the rest of us.
[quote=“fred smith”]MFGR:
Well please explain to me how the man’s constitutional rights were infringed. I don’t see it. Was he treated unfairly? Perhaps, but still this is not a question of constitutional rights by any stretch of the imagination.[/quote]
Since when is the government’s police supposed to act as the private goon squad for a mall manager? Two men quietly sitting in a food court, wearing shirts sold within the mall where they were eating. Anybody telling me I’ve got to take my shirt off had better be very pretty. 
Frankly, the mall manager should have been hauled away for going up to customers and asking them to strip.
Two shoppers. T-shirts bought in that mall (so the message can’t be too offensive, right?). Sitting and eating in the food court. So the mall is glad to have their money but brings in the troopers to stomp them down when the money is spent (on merchandise sold in that mall) on products that some mall manager doesn’t agree with.
Interestingly, Crossgates Mall, the police department, and the town of Guilderland, NY, have been sued by NYCivil Liberties Union on the basis of the mall’s tax treatment from the city government, arguing that it’s a public area in which free speech is protected. If your taxes are going to prop up some shopping center, does the shopping center get to turn around and pick and choose what messages they don’t like? How “private” is an entity that relies heavily upon the government for its greatly subsidized existence? Some questions that may get answered in the future…
More evidence that high schools, library and malls are where the Republicans plan to spend our anti-terror budget:
firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=11296 Virginia teen kicked out of public school for wearing an anti-Bush shirt.
firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=11950 Michigan teen kicked out of school by public officials for wearing an anti-Bush T-shirt.
wsws.org/articles/2003/apr20 … .shtmlFour high school teachers in Albuquerque, New Mexico have filed a lawsuit in federal court after being suspended in March for refusing to remove antiwar signs from their classrooms [made by their students]. Albuquerque Public Schools (APS) declared that the signs breached its
[quote=“Tetsuo”]My heart bleeds for you, really it does.
Now if both sides could actually settle down and get to work, maybe something, you know, constructive could happen. Unfortunately the diehards on both sides will never give an inch to either side, which basically screws things up for the rest of us.[/quote]
Oh, and how exactly are you affected by U.S. domestic policies, you New Zealander? Are you immigrating to the U.S. permanently, or do you merely plan to go there for business for a few years?
While your heart is bleeding, perhaps you should consider that it takes two sides to make a compromise. Read Mofongangren’s stuff and tell me how much his side is willing to compromise. They wouldn’t even allow an up-or-down vote on Bush’s judicial nominees; the main reason Tom Daschle got his ass handed to him was because Daschle led the Demo-ratic obstruction in the Senate.
Zell Miller and Max Baucus are two of the few Democrats willing to vote on what’s right instead of on what their party leaders demand of them. This is at least partly because both their states are heavily Republican, and if they were too obstructionist, they would have been thrown out too. (Well, Zell is retiring anyway, but Baucus knows there are limits beyond which he can’t go, unless he plans on retiring too. . . .)
That’s right, Tetsuo – When it comes to the civil rights of Americans, I don’t compromise. Voting, free speech, privacy, protection of equal rights in our society, you’re never going to find me compromising. Now, read the posts of MaPoSquid, and you’ll find a whole bunch of mush. Go ahead, I’ll bet MaPoSquid is willing to find all sorts of reasons why we ought to compromise on our nation’s greatest freedoms.
I’ll let you in on a little secret if you follow MaPoSquid’s commands and read my posts, Tetsuo – I don’t compromise on basic civil rights, but I do compromise on a whole range of other matters. When it comes down to the practical aspects of making sure our schools, hospitals, roads, military, etc. do what they’re supposed to do, I’m looking at the most practical, most efficient way to get the job done. Practicalities, not ideology.
Am I opposed to the Iraq war? Sure, but it’s because I think it was a colossal blunder and a waste of resources. I supported the Afghan war, and I continue to support anything we can do to take the fight to the terrorists. However, putting American troops into Iraq to fight terrorists is like spreading Corn Flakes cereal in a previously uninfested apartment just because you want to fight cockroaches. Do I think the Iraq war represents massive impracticalities and major inefficiencies (i.e., a major distraction of resources)? Yes. Hell, but my view on this is more “conservative” than these neocon ninnies. Again, it’s not ideology but practicalities that drive my way of thinking.
Oh, the imperious “they”. Well, looks like politics as usual on Capitol Hill. The Dems don’t like the Republican nominees, and the Republicans never like the Democratic nominees. You want obstruction, try visiting Washington D.C. during the middle of Newt Gingrich’s budget nuttiness – got the government shut down. In case the Republicans have forgotten this lately, there are lots of unfilled federal judgeships, and there are a lot of qualified, non-ideologically driven guys who would do a good job of filling those slots.
Oh, right… Zell. Uh, huh. Tell you what – most Republicans don’t move without Tom DeLay’s say-so. Again, politics as usual on Capitol Hill. Have you considered keeping up with current events? Just a suggestion.
[quote=“MaPoSquid”][quote=“Tetsuo”]My heart bleeds for you, really it does.
Now if both sides could actually settle down and get to work, maybe something, you know, constructive could happen. Unfortunately the diehards on both sides will never give an inch to either side, which basically screws things up for the rest of us.[/quote]
Oh, and how exactly are you affected by U.S. domestic policies, you New Zealander? Are you immigrating to the U.S. permanently, or do you merely plan to go there for business for a few years?[/quote]
Wow, never heard nationality used as an attempted slur before without it being “humorously” adapted somehow.
I am not affected by US domestic policies, and at no time have I claimed to be. All I’m saying in that above post is “Oh diddums. Some people don’t like you. BFW.”
Did you even bother to read what I said before going on your pre-prepared rant?
I know all too well there are dickheads on both sides that refuse to admit that the other may actually have a point and gasp not actually be the Antichrist. Unfortunately, it’s just those people that are fucking everything up for the sane, rational majorities on both sides.
Oh, and by the way, I’m sure you’re aware of this, but you do realise that those diehards, like MFGR on his side, and you and Fred on yours, aren’t actually the entireity of their respective sides, right? So the big “They” that won’t let “Us” do what “We” want is painting with an disproportionately large brush.
Yes mofan, I understand what you’re saying and your concerns but the examples and the links you gave does not solidify your position. The mall incident, for example, showed a intolerant society with a bitchy mall manager, the police did not do anything out of the ordinary nor did they have much of other options. The first school example, showed a maybe questionable school decisions, but even then, it said the school was only acting in good faith to avoid inflaming passions at the school because the majority of students there are Arab-American.
[i]
Oh, so it’s the war of the tee-shirts now or something, Moe? How hideous, he was told to bugger off by mall security! Clearly President Bush is in direct control of every mall ninja out there! In fact, the Republicans set the security policies of all malls through their extensive security-guard contacts at Halliburton! :loco:
Kids are booted out of school for wearing tee-shirts with guns on them, too. Haven’t heard you bitching about those incidents. Civil libertarian my ass, you’re just an opportunistic fruitcake who tries to blame Bush and the Republicans for everything from Kim Jong Il’s nuclear ambitions to your aunt’s gout. :fume:
Once again, I have higher expectations of our government. Combing through library records, seeking out video rentals, indefinite detention without opportunties to challenge the basis for one’s detention, and so on… Has any of this harrassment of average Americans led to a single successful prosecution of an actual terrorist? Taking the fight to “T-shirt terrorists” seems pretty dumb to me, but if you support it I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
And then arrested by real police. Oh, I guess you didn’t read carefully again. I could have predicted that you wouldn’t… how tiresome!
Bush likes to say that he “shows leadership”, but it might be a smart idea for him to actually “lead” once in a while. There’s been a top-down failure to set a tone of diligence and focus on the war on terror, and one can find common themes:
diversion from the “difficult” war in Afghanistan against Al Qaeda to what was initially perceived as a “cakewalk” war against non-terrorists in Iraq;
diversion from the difficult job of legitimate interrogation and information-gathering to the abusive, counterproductive and ultimately discrediting actions of the guards, contractors and military intelligence people working at Abu Ghraib;
diversion from the difficult job of working cooperatively with the Arab-American community within the United States to cultivate a pool of skilled linguists to ultimately counterproductive long-term detentions and coercive practices;
diversion of police units from real police activities to arrest T-shirt wearing consumers at a mall food court.
and the list of unsupportable, unaccountable diversions goes on and on and on…
I wasn’t aware of them. Personally, I might not equate “I love AK-47s” as the same sort of political expression as “I love Bush” or “I don’t like Bush”, but I’d have to know more about these incidents. Do you have some information that you can post. Links, please.
Please support either of these assertions. I’ve been quite consistent so far in my uncompromising stance that I don’t like to see civil liberties trampled on under any excuse. 1) Demonstrate, based on my posts, that I have ever maintained a separate standard for Republicans and Democrats? 2) Demonstrate, based on my posts that I have sought to use my posts to create opportunities. I will cede that the poor logic and lousy facts relied upon by many Republican posters in this forum has created many easy opportunities for myself and others to knock them down like ninepins, but such opportunites are often large enough to drive a truck through.
Support these statements as well. Oh, that’s right… you just post unsupportable nonsense all the time. I’m glad to blame Bush and the Republicans for going after a non-WMD country like Iraq when North Korea was proudly bragging about its WMD accomplishments. However, I think a careful review of my posts (if you can do that… again, I do note that you do not tend to read the posts of myself or others very carefully) will show that I have never blamed Bush for the existence Kim Jong Il’s ambitions.
Regarding my aunt, she does not have gout.
Bush has joined the likes of Stalin, Hitler, Hussein and Jong-Il with this portrait.