U.S. Immigration Debate


#21

That’s a fairly motherly stance, isn’t it? How about working on the conditions so that those people might be able to take care of themselves? I suppose, if you want, you could try to take care of them all. It would be difficult though. Perhaps it would be easier if you gathered them all into large collective communities and handed out work assignments. :laughing:[/quote]

I think a nice place for such a community would be in Burnaby. And just think of all the plusses…you wouldn’t need a work visa…great Mexican food…maybe you could even learn to dance La Cucaracha!!!

salsa-merengue.co.uk/Videos/Salone/CCshi.mpg


#22

What does communism have to do with anything?

As for America being the place for the tired, poor, etc. I agree. America’s immigration policy has for a long time been among the world’s most open. There have been some attempts to cut it off (such as Chinese exclusion) but ultimately the more open process has won out. The point here is that illegal (or undocumented, whichever you prefer) immigrants knowingly circumvate the process (which is why they go through the Arizona desert instead of coming through San Diego or El Paso). Unfortunately, so many of them have done so that dealing with them by the usual legal methods is no longer practical, so we have this debate.


#23

The thing is, it’s not like blacks are denied any opportunities. As your quoted column states, some of those blacks who are unemployed are not even seeking employment. Education is free in the U.S. through high school, and yet there are those who choose not to complete it, and there are those who choose not to work hard.

On the other hand, all the Latin American immigrants I’ve ever come across have been hard-working and willing to take jobs that many Americans won’t.

Opportunities are what you make of them.

Once again, not all of those coming across the borders are “uneducated, untrained, illiterate, Spanish-speaking peasants.”


#24

Why should the immigrants in France want to integrate into French society when their own societies are so much better?

Why should the illegal latinos integrate into U.S. society when they are going to secede and join Mexico when they have a voting majority in California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas?


#25

article about a human trafficer, who says America closing their borders is good for business…not sure what to think of it.

cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/ … index.html


#26

The current debate IS NOT ABOUT IMMIGRANTS OR IMMIGRATION.

[color=RED]IT IS ABOUT ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION.[/color]

Thank you. I do hope this clears up some of the confusion.

Until we start seeing employers of these ILLEGALS doing the perp walk on the nightly MSM news the USA will continue to suffer massively from this invasion.
And by the way - the economic cost of illegals far exceeds their societal economic input.
Unless you are thinking of remittances to Ole Mexico.


#27

So what’s wrong with getting to decide who stays in your country and who doesn’t? Abdicating that right – or “amnesty” as it’s known euphemistically – is certainly not anything any other country on earth is prepared to do to my knowledge.

As one who does a lot of international business, I’m increasingly frustrated with the restrictive business and residency requirements of the countries which benefit most from America’s more open policies – China, Mexico, Canada, Taiwan.


#28

Amnesty was given before…and ldamn ittle good it did.

Exactly.


#29

Why are these illegal Hispanics even being allowed to hold such brazen demonstrations?


#30
  1. The U.S. doesn’t screw with freedom of speech (unless of course they think you’re al quaeda or something)
  2. trying to break up demonstrations that are for the most part peaceful only gets a bunch of people hurt or dead.
  3. A lot of legal immigrants were mixed in with the illegal ones and they’d never manage to sort it out.

#31

[quote=“redandy”]
3. A lot of legal immigrants were mixed in with the illegal ones and they’d never manage to sort it out.[/quote]

And citizens, too.


#32

I wonder how well that would go over here in Taiwan. A bunch of us surly expats marching down the street waving American flags and demanding Taiwanese citizenship – or else.

The running guy could be the parade marshal.


#33

Hmmm…and just how does Mexico deal with foreign investors and immigrants, legal and illegal?

centerforsecuritypolicy.org/ … _House.pdf

[quote] * Pursuant to Article 33, “Foreigners may not in any way participate in the political affairs of the country.” This ban applies, among other things, to participation in demonstrations and the expression of opinions in public about domestic politics like those much in evidence in Los Angeles, New York and elsewhere in recent days.

* Equal employment rights are denied to immigrants, even legal ones. Article 32: "Mexicans shall have priority over foreigners under equality of circumstances for all classes of concessions and for all employment, positions, or commissions of the Government in which the status of citizenship is not indispensable."

* Jobs for which Mexican citizenship is considered "indispensable" include, pursuant to Article 32, bans on foreigners, immigrants, and even naturalized citizens of Mexico serving as military officers, Mexican-flagged ship and airline crew, and chiefs of seaports and airports.

* Article 55 denies immigrants the right to become federal lawmakers. A Mexican congressman or senator must be "a Mexican citizen by birth." Article 91 further stipulates that immigrants may never aspire to become cabinet officers as they are required to be Mexican by birth. Article 95 says the same about Supreme Court justices.

  In accordance with Article 130, immigrants - even legal ones - may not become members of the clergy, either.

* Foreigners, to say nothing of illegal immigrants, are denied fundamental property rights. For example, Article 27 states, "Only Mexicans by birth or naturalization and Mexican companies have the right to acquire ownership of lands, waters, and their appurtenances, or to obtain concessions for the exploitation of mines or of waters."

* Article 11 guarantees federal protection against "undesirable aliens resident in the country." What is more, private individuals are authorized to make citizen's arrests. Article 16 states, "In cases of flagrante delicto, any person may arrest the offender and his accomplices, turning them over without delay to the nearest authorities." In other words, Mexico grants its citizens the right to arrest illegal aliens and hand them over to police for prosecution. Imagine the Minutemen exercising such a right!

* The Mexican constitution states that foreigners - not just illegal immigrants - may be expelled for any reason and without due process. According to Article 33, "the Federal Executive shall have the exclusive power to compel any foreigner whose remaining he may deem inexpedient to abandon the national territory immediately and without the necessity of previous legal action."[/quote]

#34

Looks like this could be a very interesting day back in the US.

[quote=“Immigrants to stage boycott in US”]Immigrant workers in the United States are urging supporters to boycott their jobs on Monday in another nationwide protest over immigration reform.

Millions are expected to stay away from work and school, and avoid spending money, in an effort to show how much immigrants matter to the economy.

Called A Day Without Immigrants, the protest comes as Congress wrestles with reform of immigration laws.


Immigrants mark May Day with boycott

Employers Gird for Immigrant Boycott Today [/quote]

For some short-term historical perspective,

[quote=“The Economist (March 29, 2001): Let the Huddled Masses In”]
HIJACK a plane in Afghanistan and fly it to London. Board a rusting tub in Turkey and be wrecked off the coast of Italy or washed up in France. Camp in a container for weeks until your ship is unloaded in Canada. Hang to the wheel of a jumbo jet and hope not to freeze or suffocate. Splash across the Rio Grande. Float in a rubber ring to Florida. Walk the Sahara and sail to Spain. If you live in a miserable part of the world, just do something to reach a place more promising.

Such desperate acts are becoming routine as, each year, many hundreds of thousands of people who fear for their lives or hunger for better ones trek to safer and richer countries. The numbers rise and fall, but the trend is broadly upwards as the world


#35

Yep, pots and pans are banging on the street below. It’s going to be a very noisy day at work today.


#36

All I can tell you is, when I worked in Taiwan, I had to have a work permit, I had to have a visa to get in the country in the first place, and I had to register with the police when I changed residences. If my employer fired me, I had 7 days to get my butt off the island. I certainly wasn’t allowed to organize a bunch of, say, illegal kindy teachers, and expect them to be able to march up to the Presidential Palace to demand “rights” and demonstrate without getting deported.

I have no problem with immigration. Some of my ancestors were immigrants (others were not). However, illegal immigration makes the actions of those who work within the immigration laws and wait for their turn meaningless.

The other issue is assimilation. Everyone points to the golden age of immigration, but in those days, everyone who came to America wanted to be an American. They went to night school to learn English no matter how tough their day jobs were, if it was at all possible for them. How often do you see that today? And yes, there are plenty of free “learn English” programs available. English may not be the official language of the US, but if you’re going to make your home in a country, it’s a bit silly to complain if you pick one you don’t like (except for the money) and then say you have the right to speak your own language. Sure you do. But the mainstream culture, which speaks English, has the right to choose better-qualified people for better jobs, too – and that means people who have reasonable English and who have assimilated. There’s no reason you can’t keep your own culture while learning to operate efficiently and reasonably in your adopted one – thousands of us do it in Taiwan.


#37

[quote=“Comrade Stalin”][quote=“Chris”]
This is supposed to be the true spirit of America:

“Give me your tired, your poor,
your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
the wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me;
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.”[/quote]

That was in the 19th Century. This is the 21st. Things have changed, in case you haven’t noticed.[/quote]

I am not an immigrant. My ancestors some 4 generations, and some that date back to the colonial era - they were immigrants to this continent. When they came there was no geopolitical enity known as “America” or the United States. The Native Americans didn’t issue VISAs and so on. So, I disagree with your statements to some extent, Chris, where you imply that we are all immigrants - we are not.

Edit: This is our homeland. There seems to be finite geographical space, and a finite amount of immigration that our various systems can absorb over a given period of time. It is good judgment, therefore, to exercise control over immigration rather than to allow any and all who wish to come to our country to come whenever the fit strikes them. I for one am not interested in financing the immigration of every Tom, Dick and Harry who wishes to come here. I THINK (huge assumption about to follow) that the immigration process is or should be designed to allow those who can add something positive to the country to come, and also those who can immigrate on their own own dime or with limited governmental help to come.

Bodo


#38

Plenty, yes, but it seems not plenty enough: Immigrants’ demand for free English classes is high

Note that some immigrants face “years-long, 400-person waiting lists” for such classes.

On another note, Ironlady, are you suggesting you’d like your translating/interpreting business to dry up because of all immigrants learning English? :wink:


#39

The thing is, and Europeans and Asians just don’t seem to get this, but every single country in the world is made up of immigrants.

What? Um, let’s see, all Brits here raise your hands, let’s look at your little island for a moment. It’s been invaded and immigrated to how many times, exactly? First there where the original peoples, then the Celts, then the Romans, then the Saxons, then the Danes, then the Normans…

Taiwan has been invaded by immigrants how many times? Are the Hakka the “guest people”? How many times has China been conquered and changed by foreigners? All the original Chinese came from a small area near the Yangzte, right? They colonialized the Yueh “barbarian” tribes to the south of them, invaded and immigrated to what is now known as the southern half of China.

Yeah, Bodo, let me do you better, my ancestors founded some of the first Protestant churches in America, 300 years ago before there was a single country on either the North or South continent owned by European conquistadors. I’m no more an “immigrant” than everybody in Poland who had half their borders shifted after WWII. If you were born there, you belong there, it’s your country. You can’t just, say make up some shit about how 2,000 years ago your distantly related great-great-x20 Jewish ancestors owned some plots of land in the middle of a Mediterranean desert, and therefore you have the right to kick people who are already living there off of their land that they’ve been living on for five generations.

Everyone is the descendant of immigrants. So I say, let all borders be open. But, here’s the kicker: if they want to take advantage of our society, they have to chip in to support our society. If that means that there are more Mexican-Americans fighting in Iraq than Anglo-Saxon Americans - which there are - that’s great. They’ve earned their citizenship. The vast majority of Hispanic Americans, I think, and from what I’ve seen, want to assimilate and become normal “white”
Americans. The shrill antagonists are an obnoxious, noxious minority. By the third generation, 95% of all Hispanic Americans speak English like natives (which they are, born on American soil). Ignore the 5% of dumbasses and retards that refuse to assimilate in a country that has given them so many opportunities. Remember that the squeaky wheel makes the most noise. The average, contented Mexican-American doesn’t make any fuss.


#40

Big demonstrations today all over the U.S. as immigrants protested in various forms, with the theme being an “economic boycott” presumably in response to the backlash against immigrants as Congress has tried to address the issue. No need to post a link, just check any news source that covers the U.S. and it’ll be there.