U.S. Immigration Debate


#81

Add two other tidbits:

demographics:
Census statistics last week showed that, for the first time, almost half of Americans under five years of age are now non-white. The reason? Hispanics accounted for half the population growth in America from 2004-05; and 70% of the growth in the population under the age of five. Project that into the future and America becomes a majority coffee-coloured country in a generation. When the disproportionately white baby-boomer generation dies off, the ethnic demographic shift could be dramatic.

Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America (SPP)
A working paper developed by the CFR for the Dept of Commerce & Homeland sec. to build an uber-nafta. Agreements were made in 2005 by canada/us/mexico to lower the borders and have more integration. The link goes to a smooze paper, but if you are interested and dig around you can see how this affects immigration.

Add:
CFR - Building a NA community or link directly to the.pdf also spp.gov Basically, secure outside borders of NA, not borders between ca/us/mex. Page 8 of the pdf outlines a common security perimeter by 2010. Also its suggested there will be a biometric North American border passes. ~ generally advocating a free flow of people. What bush has been planning all along.


#82

I agree with what Mr. Boogie says, but…

In the short-term economic sense, of course we all need immigrants. But the problem in the long-term is not economic but cultural. How are we going to assimilate all these millions of immigrants? No one wants to see Germany turn into the New Ottoman Empire, the U.K. into Greater Pakistan, the U.S. into Estados de Mexico. As we can see from recent events in France, this is a serious problem that wishful thinking isn’t going to make go away. Our societies are successful in part because of our cultural values, and when third-world immigrants import their third-world ways of thinking, that can be dangerously undermining.

Not necessarily. The Philippines provides a powerful example of why this doesn’t work. Half the families in that country receive assistance from abroad and it’s hard to see how any good has come out of it. Typically, one family member goes abroad to somewhere like Taiwan, and sends back her hard-earned money to support her free-loading family of do-nothings who don’t bother to look for jobs, because wages in the Philippines are crap and it’s easier to just live off your sister’s remittances. One person in the family does all the work while the rest just leech. I suspect it’s not too different in Mexico.


#83

Maybe the Portuguese example is a good one in terms of development based on emigration. Most of the younger generation which is graduated now, has done it because normally the father lives somewhere else and sends the money to support their studies. But I did say neignbour, not far away…

The reason why I injected the part where you can do rotation on people coming. Also, if a country has enough people to support the economy, it can just issue a more limited number of work permits andrestrict family reunions. Also, and to assure integration in the system, the governments should invest in “bridge centers”, or associations to promote and develop citizenship in people who have little of it. Many of these associations could be places where people would go after work, so that they wouldn’t go to bars and cafes to get drunk and cause trouble. Also, if you imput the sence of citizenship in a immigrant, it will be easier to integrate him in the society. And the more integrate the society is, the better it works. Finally these associations would also provide legal assistance, so that it would limit exposure of immigrants to risk factors, teaching what they can do or not, and defending them in case of abuse from local government/police/employer. If foreigners believe they are secure, they will strive for their work and integrate themselves easier.
Also, creating these associations would generate employment for locals.


#84

Please remember that Hispanics like me can be of any ‘race’; it is not correct to think of Hispanic and ‘white’ as being mutually exclusive categories. I, for example, am both half Hispanic (a vague ‘ethnicity’ referring to the population of the former Spanish colonies), and 99%+ ‘white’ i.e., Caucasian. Therefore your statement that “almost half of Americans under five years of age are now non-white” is quite incorrect. You mean 'are now not non-Hispanic white". :wink:


#85

Thanks, Ironlady for your well thought comments. I agree that enforcement of existing laws should first be tried, but i have doubts about how effective it will be in really curbing the flow of immigrants. I also have serious doubts about whether Americans support for a several thousand mile fence along the border patrolled by reserves or the national guard or whoever gets the job will last. So, to me it looks like there will have to be a policy change at some point. I’d like to see a policy that allows for an easy transition to some type of worker status. This hopefully at least keeps them coming through at legal points and getting “documented.” The trick is to do that while maintaining incentives (coupled with substantial penalties) for them to be good citizens and to realize a legitimate benefit if they eventually become citizens. I think Bush’s guestworker plan, while not perfect at least is a step in that direction.

Just a note on the population figures someone posted – the majority of that is actually growth from within, as the average Hispanic U.S. citizen has more children that the average white (non-hispanic) citizen has. I guess the only ways to combat that are to tell whites to have more children or promote birth control among hispanics, and frankly, I don’t think the government should be doing either.


#86

Mostly I can agree and disagree with what has been posted. Where I have a problem with this whole thing is how Bush knowingly or unknowingly seems to be creating more racial divide/animousity(Sp)/tension in the US. It’s bad enough that people are already stressed out by high living costs, lack of health care, tax burdens along with the war. And now he dumps this diversion, IMO, that we suddenly ‘need’ border control on Mexico.

Spare me the stats on why the US needs. The stats don’t maintain peace or coexsistance. And while we’re at it, why doen’t Bush revisit the war on drugs and have a nice little lock down on Canadian borders? Cheaper presrips there, and to add the lax laws on mariuana(sp). I guess because they are assisting us with the War in Iraq we don’t want to rock that boat too much. Perhaps, Bush could suggest to Presidente Fox to convince his 'tired, poor huddled masses" to go to war. Then they would have a job, just not sucking it out of the American "in the toliet " economy. :wink: :unamused:


#87

[quote][url=http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/23/dobbs.may24/index.html]Thirty-seven Democrats vote for full amnesty for all illegal aliens in this country, even though nobody really knows whether the number is 11 million, 12 million or 20 million. The Senate Republican leadership demands that a “comprehensive immigration reform” plan must be passed before this Memorial Day weekend. And the president signs into law a tax cut that raises taxes on the educational funds of teenagers saving for college.

Never before in our country’s history have both the president and Congress been so out of touch with most Americans. Never before have so few of our elected officials and corporate leaders been less willing to commit to the national interest. And never before has our nation’s largest constituent group – some 200 million middle-class Americans – been without representation in our nation’s capital[/url][/quote]

And Lou Dobbs weighs in on the ILLEGAL immigration question - yet AGAIN. I like old Lou, and am sympathetic to the issues he raises and biases that he has.

Bodo


#88

Nama, why do you think Bush is creating animosity on this particular issue? Compared to what you see in the House and in the Senate, his position is really towards the center. Sure, politics plays a part in his motives (try and name any president who was free from political motives), but frankly his response seems quite reasonable compared to most of the other things being thrown around. As for the accusation that this is purely diversionary, note that Bush’s recent speech came AFTER the House had already addressed this and came up with thier build a wall plan.


#89

I listened to Mexican Presidents Fox speak to the full California legislature over the internet radio today.
It was nothing more than telling California that “ReConquista” was going to happen. It was pretty disgusting to listen to his arrogance and not hear a peep back to him from the elected officials present.
Yes, Bush has been in-active of this issue, but he is hardly to be blamed for everything. The Dem pols have treated this as a G-dsend in redistricting to their advantage. And yes, there has been vote fraud with illegals deciding the outcome in several California, and probably other, districts.
When I voted in Orange county Cali, I would always make it a point to ask the poll workers, loudly and with a big smile, if they would like to see my identification or US passport to verify my identity. They always responded “No No No…We’re not allowed to ask for that!”. Always got a chuckle from most of the other folks in line. And the evil eye from others. F*ck 'Em.
Its a worse problem than people here can imagine. Currently illegals are costing the state of California alone and estimated (low estimate) 10 Billion $'s a year. And its rising.
Sure America is a land of immigrants, both my folks were immigrants. Legal ones. But illegals are the greatest crisis America has faced in many many years.


#90

[quote]I listened to Mexican Presidents Fox speak to the full California legislature over the internet radio today.
It was nothing more than telling California that “ReConquista” was going to happen. It was pretty disgusting to listen to his arrogance and not hear a peep back to him from the elected officials present.
Yes, Bush has been in-active of this issue, but he is hardly to be blamed for everything. The Dem pols have treated this as a G-dsend in redistricting to their advantage. And yes, there has been vote fraud with illegals deciding the outcome in several California, and probably other, districts.
When I voted in Orange county Cali, I would always make it a point to ask the poll workers, loudly and with a big smile, if they would like to see my identification or US passport to verify my identity. They always responded “No No No…We’re not allowed to ask for that!”. Always got a chuckle from most of the other folks in line. And the evil eye from others. F*ck 'Em.
Its a worse problem than people here can imagine. Currently illegals are costing the state of California alone and estimated (low estimate) 10 Billion $'s a year. And its rising.
Sure America is a land of immigrants, both my folks were immigrants. Legal ones. But illegals are the greatest crisis America has faced in many many years.[/quote]

TC I don’t doubt you asked the questions above, but Gawd, Cali must be in a different United States when it comes to elections or I’m misunderstanding you. I ALWAYS have to present my voter card AND a photo identification to prove my identity when I vote (in Virginia). Perhaps, you’re speaking specifically about your passport as I.D.?

Bodo


#91

I voted in a local election last week – no ID required. They did have a name list though. I guess if you could convince them the name you gave really was your name, that was good enough for them. (Of course, this is Albany, the home of “vote early, vote often”…) :wink:


#92

Bodo -
Thats the facts. There is a voter verification and you just tell them you’re name and they check the name you say against the list for voters in that precinct.
The poll workers are not allowed to ask for verification of citizenship.
And the illegal rights groups have people, identified by badges - Photo ID badges - watching the poll workers to make sure this does not happen.
I offer my passport because this is considered a Federal ID for identity and citizenship verification. DL’s do not prove citizenship in Cali. Cali does not have a “voter card.” And state issued ID’s are again, not proof of citizenship. And anyway, all of these are easily available as counterfeit in most Mexican neighborhoods. Santa Ana is 10 minutes away and that is basically a Mexican city in southern California.


#93

[quote]Bodo -
Thats the facts. There is a voter verification and you just tell them you’re name and they check the name you say against the list for voters in that precinct.
The poll workers are not allowed to ask for verification of citizenship.
And the illegal rights groups have people, identified by badges - Photo ID badges - watching the poll workers to make sure this does not happen.
I offer my passport because this is considered a Federal ID for identity and citizenship verification. DL’s do not prove citizenship in Cali. Cali does not have a “voter card.” And state issued ID’s are again, not proof of citizenship. And anyway, all of these are easily available as counterfeit in most Mexican neighborhoods. Santa Ana is 10 minutes away and that is basically a Mexican city in southern California.[/quote]

Man . . . That is bullshit! How the f*(&ck are we supposed to have valid elections??(&)(&(&!!!

Bodo
mystified
naive


#94

The only way to stop the illegals is to build a wall and man the border with troops which I support. Then they should round up the illegals and deport them at the rate of 1000s and 1000s a week. Then and only then can a ‘guest worker’ scheme be talked about.
When you have the US state department telling us that parts of Southern Texas is more dangerous than the west bank you know there is a major problem.

The agenda is a unified Americas (like the EU) so the puppet in the chair at the white house will be reading from the song sheet on this one.


#95

IMO Bush is creating an atmosphere of animosity among the American public, which the dumbasses in Congress use to help themselves in the Nov. elections. I don’t deal with Congressional leaders everyday,if I were living in America now, but I would be dealing with the ave joe/jane who is gonna listen to the asinine arguement the President is making, and have to deal with their close-minded, narrow assed beliefs and comments. Doesn’t make for peace now does it?


#96

Assinine and close minded? How so? If anything I would say Bush’s plan might be a little too open minded and optimistic about things, but all the same I think its on a better track than most other proposals out there. Where has Bush tried to stir up racial tensions? If anything a guest worker plan probably allows much greater access to the U.S. by Mexicans (and just about anyone else coming from central America) than pretty much any other serious proposal out there. You may convince me Bush is a lot of things but racist isn’t one of them. And if he’s really a flaming racist, why have a hispanic AG?


#97

[quote=“redandy”]Assinine and close minded? How so? If anything I would say Bush’s plan might be a little too open minded and optimistic about things, but all the same I think its on a better track than most other proposals out there. Where has Bush tried to stir up racial tensions? If anything a guest worker plan probably allows much greater access to the U.S. by Mexicans (and just about anyone else coming from central America) than pretty much any other serious proposal out there.
[/quote] First of all, why is this suddenly an issue? We are still dealing with this so-called war on terror, and now a group of people who have proven themselves to more of an economic and voting asset than libelity(sp) suddenly need to be watched and excluded? Like I asked earlier how is it that Canadian borders aren’t apart of this? Why can’t Bush just make this a thing of Border control, if this has no barring on race or ethinitcies.

[quote]
You may convince me Bush is a lot of things but racist isn’t one of them. And if he’s really a flaming racist, why have a hispanic AG?[/quote] Perhaps he like to practice affirmative action more than the Clinton Adminstration :idunno:I’m not saying at all that he is a racist, lets not start that. FULL STOP what I am saying is that the policies do not contribute to a climate of peace and co existance.


#98

The reason that we are focussing on the Mexican border is because we have millions of illegal immigrants coming across the border. Even though we have a much larger border with Canada, we do not have the same problem. It is a matter of putting your resources where they will be most effective. I’m sure if Bush suggested the same strategy for the northern border, you and the rest of the Bush bashers would be jumping on him for wasting resources.

This has nothing to do with race. I absolutely HATE IT when people throw out this argument when they have nothing better to say.


#99

ICE has been very active along the Canadian borders:

ICE launches first northern border Air Marine Branch
U.S., Canadian Police Cooperate in Border Tunnel Arrests
Guarding America’s border

However, I will be the firdt to say more, much more could be done.
And BTW, the “race card” just won’t play in this game.


#100

Nama, this isn’t a brand new issue. They may not have broadcast the Presidential debates in Taiwan, but as someone who watched them I can assure you it was discussed. Frankly its one that has been building for a long time, and its such a topic now because of several factors, including the minutemen, large demonstrations by Hispanics, and the fact that Congress has gotten around to dealing with it.

I apologize for taking the race thing too far, my mistake. Yes, Bush’s presidency hasn’t exactly been the most hunky dory of times as regards the social climate, and yeah, he bears part of the blame for that. However, with regard to the Immigration/Border security issue, I don’t see where his actions have escalated any social conflicts, except to the extend that certain people, both liberal and conservative set Bush up as an inaccurate proxy for some other, more extreme groups.