Which was complete nonsense, because the bracelet did not have any Nazi symbols to begin with.
Talking about Nazi’s in Ukraine in no way means anyone supports or thinks Putins invasion is justified.
That’s been asked and answered many many times and not a single poster on here (as far as I can tell) thinks Putin was justified in invading Ukraine for that reason or any reason.
If we all agree that the invasion of Ukraine has little to do with NAZIs, then perhaps the dozens of posts every month linking to pro-Russian propaganda sites talking about supposed Ukrainian NAZIs are off topic, and should thus be temped.
You do not get to demand what people can and can’t talk about. You do not get to censor voices you don’t like. I wonder how many other topics you would just censor people when you don’t like their opinion, quite a few I imagine. I expect it would be a rapidly expanding list of topics.
I have been raising concerns about Ukraine for years, where were your concerns before war broke out and in the years prior?
I simply said it’s off topic, since we all seem to agree that whether Ukraine or any other countries have some neo-NAZIs or not obviously has nothing to do with the Russian invasion.
If you don’t think temp is necessary, maybe we can have a thread to concentrate all the alleged claims of Ukraine NAZIs.
It happens that people repost fabricated Russian propaganda in the discussion thread. Not always it is immediately clear until all facts are established.
Follow the news about the conflict in the other thread
I probably didn’t write much on the subject after the annexation of Crimea, other than to comment on Trump requesting Zelenskyy for Biden dirty over the phone. I don’t think I didn’t pay attention when Russian first annexed Crimea and sent troops into Donbas though.
I even made a little sense in another Russian invasion thread back in 2014.
But it’s not off topic, perhaps it’s a part of Ukrainian history you are unaware of. I know you follow Taiwan history closely. Ever hear of Yaroslav Stetsko and his buddy Chiang Kai-shek? Of course you have heard of the latter, just I suspect you may never have heard of the former or knew they were buddies.
Anyway, that little detour will definitely take us off topic. I suggest leaving the Nazi thing alone and others will likely not feel the need to push back and provide some clarity.
But bottom line, no! It in no way justified an invasion, non of Russias reasons did, nor was it acceptable to annex Crimea as if it needs be said for the 100th time.
I have only learned of Yaroslav Stetsko after the 2022 invasion of Ukraine. I was well aware of Chiang’s affinity for Hitler and the NAZIs though.
Stetsko and the rest of OUN-B were put in an impossible situation. They pretty much worked with and fought against everyone, Germany, Soviet Union and Poland just to name a few, just to find a chance to restore Ukrainian independence. It’s not an envious position to be in. Stetsko certainly worked more closely with the NAZIs than most of the OUN-B.
Right, in other words it’s a little bit more complicated than…
This is a good article that looks into the history and yes, Putin is playing up the hype of Nazi’s to his own domestic crowd but that doesn’t mean there is nothing there at all, historically there certainly was and maybe remnants remain.
Probably best not to refer to Russians as “orcs” as that seemed to elicit the tit for tat exchange that resulted in calling Azov soldiers “Nazi’s”.
It’s just that Ukraine’s neo-NAZI problem isn’t any worse than any other Caucasian dominated countries, especially in Eastern Europe and compared to Russia itself. So what’s the point of constantly bringing it up? What does it add to the conversation about the invasion of Ukraine?
It was stated just as many times that some Nazis do exist, just like in any other place in the world. It is simply not a widespread problem. Ukrainian people are not Nazis.
I was referring to clearly false propaganda. Lies about someone being a Nazi on evidence that was not true or fabricated.
e.g. the mentioned ‘Nazi bracelet’ which was false
It seems anything slightly related to Nazis does get more attention than anything else. Mixing up things like nationalism with fascism.
It feels odd that such things are posted here so often.
An Italian Nazi group was busted. A few of the members were Ukrainian nationals.
Article posted here from some blog implying it was some Ukrainian terror organization…
Completely different from what was posted.
Far-right expert Marone, who is also an associate research fellow at the Italian Institute for International Political Studies, told VICE World News that the Order of Hagal arrests underlined how Italian right-wing extremists were increasingly inspired by the accelerationist ideology prevalent in the transnational white supremacist scene – with would-be terrorists explicitly seeking to emulate mass murderers like Anders Behring Breivik, who murdered 77 people in Norway in 2011, or Brenton Tarrant, the gunman who killed 51 people in New Zealand in 2019.
Well, I’m not, you brought it up as a strawamn asking people who defend the claim that Putin made that invading Ukraine was justified because of Nazi’s. No one here ever made that claim.
Then shifting the goal posts to say Ukraine’s Nazi problem is just like every other country. Not really, as you know Ukraine had people join the Nazi party, unlike many other countries. The article I liked to gives nuance .
But after the 2014 coup and after protests erupted in the east of Ukraine, it’s was these ultra right wing nationalists who came to put down the protests sometimes burning down buildings with people inside.
Some 1,000 Ukrainian rightists, led by the notorious Right Sector, surrounded, stormed, and burned the House of Trade Unions in Odessa last Friday, killing 39 pro-Russia demonstrators in the building.
On their way to attacking the union hall, which was occupied by anti-Kiev government demonstrators fearing for their lives, the rightists recruited members of a Ukrainian football club, the Chernomorets, according to numerous reports in the European press and on line.
Many of those who attacked and burned the building wore swastikas and other fascist insignias, according to observers. Eye witnesses said that the fascists were armed with bats, shields, and metal chains and that the people inside the union hall had run there for protection from them. After the attack by the rightists streets around the trade union headquarters were reportedly stained with the blood of those who had jumped from windows to escape the flames.
We were egging these groups on prior to the 2014 coup. Because they were anti Russian they were our friends.
But their ideology is rooted in the national racist Nazi ideology that learned from leaders that were mentioned in the article I gave you.
Tyahnybok himself was expelled from the Our Ukraine parliamentary faction in 2004 after giving a speech demanding that Ukrainians fight against a “Muscovite-Jewish mafia” (he later clarified this by saying that he actually had Jewish friends and was only against to “a group of Jewish oligarchs who control Ukraine and against Jewish-Bolsheviks [in the past]”). In 2005 he wrote open letters demanding Ukraine do more to halt “criminal activities” of “organized Jewry,” and, even now, Svoboda openly calls for Ukrainian citizens to have their ethnicity printed onto their passports.
Because it’s not like other parts of the world, where large numbers of the population joined the Nazi party, whose leaders are still today venerated by many. Whose leaders (which John McCain met with, Tyahnybok) still have the view "
Tyahnybok himself was expelled from the Our Ukraine parliamentary faction in 2004 after giving a speech demanding that Ukrainians fight against a “Muscovite-Jewish mafia” (he later clarified this by saying that he actually had Jewish friends and was only against to "a group of Jewish oligarchs who control Ukraine and against Jewish-Bolsheviks [in the past]")
That view which I highlighted above dates back to WWII and when the Ukrainians were fighting against the Russians (the Jewish-Bolsheviks).
These were the same people that came out of the woodwork to attack those in the east who were protesting the 2014 coup and then joined military units like Azov.
Chiang Kai-shek’s son, actually served in the Wehrmacht.
Chiang Kai-shek’s army training under NAZI instructors who later were tried as war criminals.
Had Hitler not deemed Chiang Kai-shek an incompetent ally and signed a treaty with Chiang’s enemy the Japanese instead, Chiang would have modeled the entire country after the NAZIs if he could.
For most of Ukrainian resistance during WW2, working with the NAZIs was an enemy of my enemy is my friend situation. Sadly, enemy of Ukrainian independence at the time seems to be everyone, so they ended up fighting everyone.
You also seem to be pushing for the idea that there is a direct connection between collaborating with the NAZIs back in WW2, to the current neo-NAZIs in Ukraine. It seems highly unlikely, and at most those in the WW2 serve as a symbol more than a direct lineage. Regardless if that is the case though, National Corps, the political party that likes to use possibly NAZI inspired symbols got less than 3% of the vote and won 0 seats in the election prior to the war. Hardly seem like the Ukrainian people were particularly motivated by ultra-nationalistic politicians, whether or not they used possible NAZI inspired symbols.
It’s not but I am going to stop with this line of thinking because ultimately the Ukranians are the victims here and I don’t want to be seen as blaming the victim.
But it’s clear to me at least the West collectively and Russia were in a struggle over who would have greater influence over Ukraine, presumably because that would give them most favored nation in pillaging Ukrainian recourses.
In the end the Russians have behaved abominably, they deserve the worlds condemnation but the West IMO acted irresponsibly too.
And once again, Putin had no reason to invade, he had no right to annex Crimea, but saying the right wing Nationalists (who Putin called Nazi’s) are a figment of imagination, is not true.
I googled for images from the 2014 coup, you know who that is right? You know why they are flying a red and black flag and as the BBC article notes. Noting as you say the far right groups only make up a very small number of Ukranians.
However, even though the far right are a minority, for their numbers they have played an outsized, though not decisive, role. What is more, at key points they have influenced the course of the demonstrations.
And, at times, they have appeared to be the driving force behind the Maidan -
Yet you say “You also seem to be pushing for the idea that there is a direct connection between collaborating with the NAZIs back in WW2, to the current neo-NAZIs in Ukraine. It seems highly unlikely”
Are your eyes lying?
I think they are using historical figures who fought for Ukrainian independence as symbols for their own current struggle.
Those photos also don’t seem like “a lot of people”. I’d guess the same amount people showed up as Russian protests against Putin’s invasion of Ukraine.
I think the election is a much better indicator of actual support for ultra-nationalists. However, I’m sure after the war, there’d be a lot more Ukrainians in favor of ultra-nationalist parties.
You missed the part in the academic article I linked to.
The Bandera cult, which reappeared in western Ukraine in the late 1980s and early 1990s, is one of the many examples of how discourses created by the veterans of the OUN, UPA, and the Waffen -SS division Galizien were adopted by Ukrainian historians during the last 30 years.18 Only recently have scholars such as Yuri Radchenko, Artem Kharchenko, Oleksandr Zaitsev, and Marta Havryshko started to rewrite the history of fascism and Holocaust in Ukraine. Grzegorz Rossolinski-Liebe’s first academic biography of Stepan Bandera, which was severely attacked by Ukrainian nationalists and rejected or not taken seriously by many Ukrainian, Polish, and Russian historians, was published in Ukrainian and Russian only two weeks before Putin attacked this country.19, That lack of self-criticism, the unwillingness to deal critically with ‘difficult’ aspects of the Ukrainian history, is now exploited by Putin.
They may not be large as a percentage of the people, but as the BBC article notes " at times, they have appeared to be the driving force behind the Maidan -
Anyway, not to dwell on it. The Ukrainian people are the victims here, we all seem to agree on that.
It would seem to me Ukraine is a free country, and people can publish anything they want. If it’s a fringe idea, then it would do horribly and very little people would read it. Both Ukraine and the US seemed to be sure that Russia was on the verge of starting a war two weeks before Putin attacked.
For advisors of Zelenskyy, such as Oleksiy Arestovych, they seemed to know when the Russians will invade down to the month a year in advance.
I doubt a book was what triggered Putin to invade Ukraine.
Nationalists exist. It doesn’t give Putin the authority to invade a sovereign country because of nationalists. It was clearly his excuse, if Putin didn’t want to subjugate the entire country he would have just barricaded himself in like countries who don’t have ambitions of conquest.
Putin has time and time against said the greatest tragedy of the 20th century was the collapse of the soviet union. He has made it very clear that he believes Ukraine IS NOT a country and that it belongs as one. Putins #1 issue is that Ukrainian’s wouldn’t play ball with him like his stooge in Belorussia.
The annexation of Crimea, and the populace under constant duress of Russia made people more and more resentful of Russia. Putin wants to be a big dog, he wants to annex the entire country of Ukraine because he thinks it will help propel him and russia towards a new world order.
Wars are almost fought for resources, Ukraine’s Neon production, neon, and other valuable resources.
Imagine russia take Ukraine, control grain and neon, china take taiwan and the rest of the world can sit thumb up their ass with no more chips nor the material for a LONG while. NEW WORLD ORDER.
Putin’s only problem was, the russian military was complete fucking lie. We thought their 5th gen stealth fighters could rival americas. We thought their military equipment could rival American. We thought their soldiers could rival the American. The russian’s are so good at lying they made everybody think they could go toe to toe with NATO, but in the end the clown fucks couldn’t refuel a tank 20km from their own border. we and they thought they were legit, but all we are seeing is the clown show…Iran and Russia.
btw If you watch top gun maverick the end scene
you’ll see the biggest joke of the movie is russia being able to get more than 0 next gen fighters into the air.
Has there been an independent investigation already? With inspectors not aligned with NATO or Russia?
“It looks like most of them were shot in the head,” Dr. Rohini Haar, medical adviser at Physicians for Human Rights, said in an interview. “There are pools of blood. That indicates that they were just left there dead. There appears to have been no effort to pick them up or help them.”
My question would be why are they in the exact position they were in when they surrendered and when they were killed? If they knew one would come out with a gun, they would have probably moved a little at least.
And regarding Nazis in Ukraine, there have been a fair number of videos and articles posted from pre-2022 that the western corporate media have done on them. They now whitewash that. Surprised they have not deleted the old videos and articles.
I get the impression those here that support Ukraine tell themselves the Nazis do not exist or have no influence, as to make themselves feel like they are supporting a noble group of people.