Unbalanced globalisation- real cause of crisis

You haven’t refuted the basic facts of the discussion, i.e., that an expansion of trade between two nations provides a net positive benefit to both nations. You have simply questioned the reliability of the sources: i.e., the Brookings Institute and the US Government. You claim to value scholarly sources, and yet have made zero effort to cite any in favor of your argument or to refute the Brookings and/or Government figures. All you’re offering is your unsubstantiated opinion.

It’s a convenient shorthand that we all use when we say two “nations” are trading. But that’s not really the case at all. It’s a vast multitude of firms and individuals -millions and millions of people- buying and selling goods and services from each other. Sure, trade agreements can be complex, but it all basically comes down to allowing firms and individuals the choice to buy and sell from each other. That’s it. That’s all we’re talking about here. Whether or not to give people in say, South Korea and the US the option of trading with each other without the burden of tariffs and other government restrictions.

The reason why I haven’t posted many links to data is that I believe most of it is presented from the angles of the think tank or govenment involved.
For instance the Cato institute comes out in favour of free trade and NAFTA as per usual. The EPI (Economic Policy Initiative or something to that effect, backed up the teamsters union) comes out against NAFTA. The US trade representative just cherry picks the data according to the years and numbers they want and then summaries it 100% favourably. The Korean government and Korean-US trade body has plastered the internet with ‘it’s a good thing and will expand trade’ but again don’t explain the rationale clearly as to how the expanding trade will help employment in the US. In fact the bill has been held up because the US government/congress underneath all the bluster seems to be aware that it will damage employment and they want a 7 billion ‘worker’ compensation package!

So I wanted to post up some numbers but I’m having a hard time finding objective information. Then I prefer to look at the number of manufacturing jobs lost and factories closed down in the US over the last decade and the amount of investment made by manufacturing firms in the US compared to the investment that they placed outside of the US along with the unemployment rate up to the present day. I will post some up when I have more time later. They are more objectice indicators.

Nobody will answer my question how it is possible the Korean FTA will benefit the US more than harm it. The US market is huge and open and has a cost disadvantage, the Korean one is relatively small and closed (culturally Koreans will often favour local product and the government will definitely favour local ‘chaebol’ for tenders) and the Koreans have a significant cost advantage. It’s just a far far better deal for the Koreans. I have looked through the politicians spiel and the trade groups spiel and the only significant thing I can find that benefits the US is that argi exports will do well, I’ve not been able to see any other significant benefit mentioned.

I understand in some part that it does give consumers more choice, at the same time that is not always a good idea for a number of reasons. For instance, if you offered the average motorist the choice to purchase leaded cheap gasoline compared to unleaded expensive gasoline I think many will go for the leaded version. One could also argue that legalising marijuana gives the consumer a choice or selling cigarettes or beer with low VAT would do the same, yet governments choose to regulate many of these things which they deem bad for society at large. Maybe a few extreme examples but giving people more choice is definitely a complex issue. It doesn’t always have a good result. Society’s welfare as a whole is bigger than consumer choice.

That simply isn’t true. The Trade Office brief was issued in 2007, and analyzed the 13 years since the passage of NAFTA (1993) to the last year on which complete data could be collected (2006). And it’s worth noting that 2001-2003 were rough years for the US. The brief compared the 1993-2006 figures to the previous 13 years of 1980-1993, and demonstrated that NAFTA increased trade to Mexico and Canada faster than trade increased to other nations. So what’s this business about cherry picking?

Because history informs us that FTAs are mutually beneficial arrangements, as with NAFTA.

Sure, I understand. But, in my opinion, the burden of proof is on the party desiring to constrain choices. Given the known economic advantages to the expansion of markets, the burden is on the protectionist to prove why this choice should be constrained. Frankly, I have yet to see this happen here. Perhaps one could argue that the technological revolution of the mid 90s and early 2000s accounts for some of the Trade Office figures, but why would trade increase more between the US and its NAFTA partners than between the US and other nations? Economics is a numbers game, and it’s fairly basic that the expansion of trade between nations (or any untapped pool of buyers) increases aggregate production on both sides. And there is no more reliable bellwether of living standards than production.

You’re right that the US Congress is holding up the FTA with South Korea. It is disheartening to me to see that the protectionists appear to be winning this fight. I’m sure you’re experiencing the opposite effect, as it only makes sense that an Irishman working for a multinational company in Asia is opposed to free trade. :wink:

Headhoncho, to be honest, if the US government and the thinktanks can’t even make head or tail the figures, us lesser mortals don’t have much chance. I think the reason people think their economies need to be ‘protected’ is because there’s already such an almighty mess of trade controls, tariffs and subsidies that it’s impossible to predict what will happen to that bit over there if someone pulls this bit of string over here. If there were a lot less government interference in the first place, it would be much clearer that to see that tariffs are simply harmful.

If you don’t believe this is the case, can you give a concrete example of (a) one particular area where you think an import tariff should be imposed and (b) why you think that would benefit America in general? It is not enough to demonstrate benefit to one specific industry.

no offense, but that’s gotta be one of the dumbest statements I’ve seen in a long time or maybe I just don’t get what you’re saying. [see sig]

[quote]no offense, but that’s gotta be one of the dumbest statements I’ve seen in a long time or maybe I just don’t get what you’re saying. [see sig]
[/quote]
How so? I know we all take the piss out of politicians etc., but the fact is, these people are paid good money to think about these things all day. Some of them even have relevant qualifications. A few of them are actually very, very clever people who publish incomprehensible papers in journals that nobody reads. And yet none of them can agree on whether tariffs/subsidies are good, bad, or indifferent.

My gut feeling is that the entire global market has been so thoroughly distorted by a mishmash of random government fiddling that it’s impossible to calculate the effect of any single ‘protectionist’ measure on a country as a whole. Which is why I was asking if Headhoncho can give an example of where a tariff (or subsidy) would be demonstrably useful.

[quote=“finley”][quote]no offense, but that’s gotta be one of the dumbest statements I’ve seen in a long time or maybe I just don’t get what you’re saying. [see sig]
[/quote]
How so? I know we all take the piss out of politicians etc., but the fact is, these people are paid good money to think about these things all day. Some of them even have relevant qualifications. A few of them are actually very, very clever people who publish incomprehensible papers in journals that nobody reads. And yet none of them can agree on whether tariffs/subsidies are good, bad, or indifferent.

My gut feeling is that the entire global market has been so thoroughly distorted by a mishmash of random government fiddling that it’s impossible to calculate the effect of any single ‘protectionist’ measure on a country as a whole. Which is why I was asking if Headhoncho can give an example of where a tariff (or subsidy) would be demonstrably useful.[/quote]

OK. I see your point now. thanks for being patient with my impatience lol

Headhoncho, to be honest, if the US government and the thinktanks can’t even make head or tail the figures, us lesser mortals don’t have much chance. I think the reason people think their economies need to be ‘protected’ is because there’s already such an almighty mess of trade controls, tariffs and subsidies that it’s impossible to predict what will happen to that bit over there if someone pulls this bit of string over here. If there were a lot less government interference in the first place, it would be much clearer that to see that tariffs are simply harmful.

If you don’t believe this is the case, can you give a concrete example of (a) one particular area where you think an import tariff should be imposed and (b) why you think that would benefit America in general? It is not enough to demonstrate benefit to one specific industry.[/quote]

I think that tariffs are just one form of favouring the local industry, they are one weapon in the battle of getting favourable trading conditions for your own country in the global trading market. The biggest problem I have with being ‘anti-tariff’ is that it removes a weapon that can be used in negotiation.

It’s like going to war and both sides were evenly matched but one side said no matter what happens we are not going to use air-craft carriers because that goes against our principle that the oceans should be open areas free of military interference, it just immediately puts you at a strategic disadvantage. You have told the other side in advance where your weakness is and they are going to exploit that to the fullest.

As for where to apply tariffs (taking the US as an example), my idea is a general tariff on imported goods and services of 5-10%, this will generate badly needed revenue for the US government and help to push manufacturers and service operators to have physical locations in the US. In this way the tariff is seens as fairly spread across all industries. If other countries weren’t willing to adjust their terms of trade such as currency rates or unfair favouring of domestic companies I would pull the trigger and let them know it, you’ve got to ready to back up your threats or people don’t take you seriously.

Being forced to choose some areas to apply a tariff furniture or vehicle manufacturing or vehicle parts or semiconductor industry might all benefit in the US from increased tariffs given the size of the home market compared to their current or potential export market. I would definitely apply a tariff on partially and fully assembled electronic goods entering US, many other countries use a similar approach. I would also apply a tariff on touch-screens and LED screens too to encourage an integrated supply chain to set-up in the US.

Look at what Brazil is doing- http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Taiwans-Hon-Hai-assessing-apf-2875580144.html?x=0&.v=1 , supposedly looking at 12 billion in investment in 5 years!

Just to reinstate where tariffs benefit America in general, they generate badly needed revenue for the government to balance its budget, they favour investment and job creation (if done in the right way) thereby reducing demand on social services, giving job and income opportunities and again generating tax revenue for the government. By encouraging purchase of local manufactured goods they reduce the trade deficit and amount of debt controlled by overseas countries and reduce the leverage of foreign countries who the US depends on to prop up the dollar and government services through borrowing.

I’d really like to see the NAFTA figures updated to this year, 2011. Yes trade may have increased, that is ‘cross-border’ trade increased anyway, but did it bring (a) increased employment opportunities or (b) reduce employment opportunities in the US, did it help to (a) increase median incomes in the US or (b) decrease US median incomes. If the case is both (b) and (b) above then maybe it just enriched a certain section of society at expense of others.

Which brings me to the definition of ‘trade’. Trade can simply increase by moving objects around and moving money around, that’s not very productive though if that’s the only game in town. It can only continue in the absence of a local productive economy with easy access to credit, eventually trade will start to be damaged as one side bankrupts itself or finally reaches ‘parity’ with the poorest trading partner. Also I’m wondering were financial services included in trade figures too?

Surely not all FTAs are the same and not all FTAs benefit both parties equally or even are beneficial to both parties. They may benefit ‘trade’, but the fundamental difference I have with proponents of ‘free trade’ is that I don’t think increased trade always means increased prosperity.

Feel free to go find them. As yet, you have failed to provide any authoritative references to bolster your argument. You are just restating your opinion.

Did you bother reading the brief? Or my posts explaining it? :ponder: Employment and compensation were both criteria used in the brief, and both increased more in the 13 year period post-NAFTA than the 13-year period pre-NAFTA.

Productive investment and manufacturing output were also used as criteria, and both increased.

You say that tariffs should be put in place as negotiating weapons. You don’t say against whom these “weapons” should be used. Against nations with whom we already have FTAs? :ponder: We already have a variety of trade restrictions (mostly tariffs) against non-FTA partners. Of course we use these as bargaining chips during negotiations. But the point is to use them as negotiating tools to reach a less, not more restrictive state of commerce.

OK, this should be easy then. Establish quantitative criteria for prosperity and demonstrate that FTAs have resulted in worse results than existed before the FTAs. I realize you won’t be quoting the Heritage Foundation, but I’ll accept figures from left-of-center groups like, say the Brookings Institute. Oh wait… :wink:

Yes you are right I cannot use figures from either side and the government statistics, at least from the US trade office, are biased according to their overly positive summary of the situation. Debate in the US has been taken over by lobbying groups and is extremely polarised.

I just have to argue this one on the common sense merits of the case and from the macro economic situation that the US obviously finds itself in along with the employment figures in manufacturing, investment in manufacturing in US, median incomes and unemployment rates. I think all these are down since NAFTA except unemployment which is up. If something is broken or not working you need to fix it or change direction, not blindly follow the same game plan.

I find there is a quasi religious component to the belief in ‘free trade’ and ‘non-tariffs’, fact is this is not an economic fundamental and free trade can still result in market capture and monopolization, regulation and rules need to be applied as people are smart and will take advantage of any system if allowed. Regular reviews of policies need to be made and if they are found to not work they should be changed, that is how any efficient management works. The Chinese in particular are far more flexible and practical in their thinking than the US and this is what allows them to ‘capture’ the economic system to their advantage, this is from when they made the neccessary ‘mental adjustment’ and lost their adherence to ideology over two decades ago.

Statistical bias has a specific, technical definition, with commonly accepted criteria for demonstrating such bias. You haven’t demonstrated any bias. You are, once again, just restating your opinion.

The criteria you mentioned are quantifiable, and the Brookings Institute and US Government figures demonstrate measurable improvements in those criteria. Common sense, gut feelings, etc. are meaningless when discussing measurable phenomena.

Well, I certainly agree that one party to this discussion has been making an emotional, perhaps even “quasi-religious” argument, while the other has backed up assertions with measurable, relevant criteria. I just disagree it’s the free trade side of the discussion. :sunglasses:

The brooking institute, cato institute, blah blah blah…really hard to trust reports that must have a left or right leaning conclusion. Even many ivy league US economists are on the take, most are multimillionaires from putting their names to hedge funds and guest speaker events for Wall Street. They were the ones that gave the intellectual firepower for Wall Street and the ‘free hand of the market’ nonsense.

You claiming it’s just my opinion there have been declines in many indicators is annoying me so I spent some time digging these handy stats/graphs up, to back up what every man and his dog already knows. Look at the US and you tell me how it got into it’s current mess?

US Median Household Income- Last ten years stagnation and dropping, artificially propped up by credit splurge in 2000s
davemanuel.com/median-household-income.php

Unemployment Rates- Initially dropped in 1990s, blip around dot com and credit splurge/construction boom and now hitting a record 10%
portalseven.com/employment/unemp … oYear=2011

Decline in fixed investment in US manufacturing since 1996 (NAFTA signed 1993)
idealtaxes.com/PreventRecession.htm

US Inequality trends
slate.com/id/2266025/entry/2266512

“Black cat, white cat,” the Communist leader famously said. “What does it matter what color the cat is as long as it catches mice?”

[quote=“headhonchoII”]US Median Household Income- Last ten years stagnation and dropping, artificially propped up by credit splurge in 2000s
davemanuel.com/median-household-income.php[/quote]

Now we’re getting somewhere. OK, let’s take a look and see if these figures contradict the claims of the US Trade Office. Using the inflation adjusted dollar column, we can see that median household income rose by $1780 from 1980 to 1993. So that’s the 13 years prior to NAFTA the Trade Office used. Again using the inflation adjusted figures, this time examining the 13 years post-NAFTA, median household income rose by $5634. So far, your figures do not contradict the Brookings/Trade Office claims. Just the opposite.

But maybe I’m not being fair. The figures you sourced go all the way to 2009, which includes the Great Recession and should help you out. OK, so let’s look at the 16 years prior to NAFTA and the 16 years post-NAFTA. Between 1977 and 1993, median household income rose by $1914, using inflation adjusted dollars. Again using inflation adjusted dollars, median household income rose by $3938 from 1993 to 2009. The gap has narrowed, but the figures still support the hypothesis that NAFTA has been helpful to the average American.

HH, I haven’t tried your other links, but I am going to stop here. I think I have made my case as effectively as I can, and I believe the objective evidence supports my position. I will leave it to our readers’ discretion to judge whether or not that is the case.

The links I gave have all been adjusted for inflation. The median income has now dropped to 47,000 USD. The USD relative strength has also dropped and may continue to drop.
I have also conclusively shown that unemployment is up, debt is up, purchasing power has reached a zenith and dropping. The figures DO NOT show that NAFTA has benefited the average American, they show stagnation and now a decline in living standards. The decline in living standards would have been more obvious but for the easy credit policy pursued by the government which gave a temporary increase in construction/service jobs. Now maybe if we review in the next 5-10 years we can judge again, but right now that is what the figures are saying.

Very well that you are dropping out of the argument for the case, the case should be fairly obvious from the result though, the US economy is in a bad way , unemployment is at record levels and it’s debt at record levels. Countries with strong manufacturing sectors do not have these problems, in fact many are booming and their fiscal state is strong (e.g. taking Germany as an example of an advanced economy or China as a developing one).

Actually, the first link contained both nominal and real (inflation-adjusted) figures. I emphasized my usage of the latter for that reason.

No, you just dropped a bunch of links with brief subjective summaries. I only checked the first one, and the data contradicted your own argument. If you really want to make your case, establish quantifiable criteria relative to living standards, select an equal period of time both before and after the passage of NAFTA (1993), and demonstrate that NAFTA caused living standards to decline. Best of luck!

Well you never checked the other links which contradict some of your statements earlier. Anyway…I don’t claim we can always draw a direct line to things but it’s clear nafta is one of the factors that has damaged manufacturing in the US, and damage to that sector has had multiple effects down the line.

I don’t know. There’s probably a lot of reasons. This article was interesting.

[quote]http://www.marketwatch.com/story/how-the-bubble-destroyed-the-middle-class-2011-07-08
How the Bubble Destroyed the Middle Class
by Rex Nutting
Friday, July 8, 2011
MarketWatch

"The crazy thing is that our leaders aren’t even talking about this crisis. With the upper classes prospering and global markets booming, they don’t need the U.S. middle class any more. The market is up, profits are soaring, and the corporate jet is fueled and ready for takeoff.

And if the middle class can’t buy bread? Let them eat cake."

[/quote]