I don’t think that’s the same thing. “Tacky” refers to style, not price or sophistication. It’s more than just “song” or “tu”, isn’t it?
take your point; basically we are saying the concept doesn’t exist in chinese at all (perhaps because the requisite style sensitivity has yet to be developed in chinese culture); a bit like “renao” in reverse which to most westerners is a bad thing but has a positive value in chinese culture)
I don’t think that’s the same thing. “Tacky” refers to style, not price or sophistication. It’s more than just “song” or “tu”, isn’t it?[/quote]
“Tacky,” in my mind, always refers to style, not price or sophistication, like you said. With “kitsch” (sp?: and another Yiddish word, me thinks) being something that is tacky, yet, somehow likeable.
To me, many things in Taiwan are tacky, but very few, if any, are kitsch. However, as we all seem to agree, the Taiwanese don’t seem to have the same sense of style as many westerners. But, that is a whole 'nother thread entirely.
By the way, there seems to be a lot of Yiddish expressions in (American?) English.
How many can we come up with?
- That’s a facacta idea. – ie., lousy; ridiculous
- He gave me babkes. – ie., nothing; beans
- She looks very ferklempt. – ie., bummed out; bad mood
- The place was full of goyim. – ie., non-Jewish people
- Don’t be such a kvetch. – ie., complainer
- Mazel tov on the new baby. – ie., congratulations
- He was such a mensch. – ie., nice gentleman
- He is acting like a meshuggenah. – ie., crazy person
- What you are doing is so meshuggah. – ie., craziness
- I could really do with a little nosh. – ie., a snack
- I had to schlep it across town. – ie., to drag
- Oy, it is so hot, I’m starting to shvits. – ie., to sweat
- My shoes are covered with schmutz. – ie., dirt
- Come here, I want to pinch your tukhes. – ie., tush; butt
- She likes to kibitz with everyone at the office. – ie., to meddle
- There is a whole mishmash of words here. – ie., mix; hodge-podge
- He’s a real schlemiel - always screwing up. – ie., fool
- The poor schlemazl had his car stolen. – ie., unlucky person
I thought a schlep was an idiot of sorts, does it have that meaning in Yiddish as well, or is that some sort of parallel word unrelated to the Yiddish?
Hi Neo,
You seem to be very well located (NYC) to brush up on Actual Living Yiddish.
You are right that schlep is a yiddishism. Apparently it has three meanings…
As a verb:
I had to schlep all my stuff up three filghts of stairs. (to pull, drag)
As a noun:
That waiter who spilled my drink is such a schlep. (stupid or clumsy, like a klutz)
or… another meaning as a noun:
Writing up the year end reports is such a schlep, I can’t stand it. (an unpleasant task, or difficult journey)
I’m from New York, too. Irish-Catholic background.
Poking around a bit into Yiddish resources on the Web, I was surprised to find that these terms are of Yiddish origin:
We have a glitch in the system.
That’s the most cokamammie idea I’ve ever heard!
There will be a mish mash of stuff for sale at the auction.
[quote=“QuietMountain”]“Tacky,” in my mind, always refers to style, not price or sophistication, like you said. With “kitsch” (sp?: and another Yiddish word, me thinks) being something that is tacky, yet, somehow likeable.
To me, many things in Taiwan are tacky, but very few, if any, are kitsch. However, as we all seem to agree, the Taiwanese don’t seem to have the same sense of style as many westerners. But, that is a whole 'nother thread entirely.[/quote]I think that song3 can indeed refer to style. Does it imply trying to be showy while using cheap things to you? To me, it just seems to mean being showy in an ineffective, silly way. I don’t think it requires low quality, but maybe I’m wrong. It’s similar to kitsch, but without the sense of irony that that term carries.
By the way, I think that’s the real thing the Chinese terms miss in translation. “Kitsch” indicates a great deal of irony – something that is so out of fashion that it is back in fashion. “Campy” is similar. I honestly don’t know how you’d describe a drag queen’s dress made out of popsicle sticks or a cafe appointed in impeccable 70’s style in Mandarin, because the Mandarin terms seem to lack this sense of irony.
The really hard thing to translate, for me, is “cheesy”. An Australian friend didn’t know it, and even when we were both speaking the same language, it was really hard to communicate the nuances of the word. I think it’s a better translation for song3 in some ways, though, because “cheesy” is almost always negative. But what’s the difference between “tacky” and “cheesy”?
And a further aside: are the characters 鬆 and 俗 and 土? The last two I’m pretty sure about, but I think I forgot what the character for song3 is.
悚 i think is the one we’re after…but the word is taiwanese in derivation and has become part of taiwan guoyu…my sources claim it wouldn’t have meaning on the mainland…most commonly used in the slang expression SPP…song piao piao meaning a fashion victim (armani suit with tuoxie anyone?)
Hmmm - well, I’ve certainly heard the word and used it, despite being Australian. Usually in the context of a ‘cheesy grin’ though - one of those big, toothy ones. I do know things can be ‘cheesy’ but don’t usually use it that way. I would say there’s a subtle difference between them. ‘Cheesy’ implies something that’s over the top cliched, and to me implies connotations of wholesome, but too wholesome to be right, like an parody of a 50s housewife showing off her Brand New Oven! or Disneyland proudly advertising itself as ‘The Happiest Place on Earth’ or something. I think cheesy can also have self-awareness sometimes while tacky doesn’t. Tacky leans more towards just plain ugly or vulgar, and ignorance of the fact.
That’s probably the closest I can get to my interpretation… 
← cheesy 
BTW, QM - I was familiar with all the Yiddish except the first and last examples. Good to see all that American TV wasn’t wasted (on me) 
yiddish-chinese dictionary anyone?..could be a buck in that…not!
Ok… I decided to go to the dictionary for a little help (specifically Dictionary.Com)
camp
noun
a. An affectation or appreciation of manners and tastes commonly thought to be artificial, vulgar, or banal.
b. Banality, vulgarity, or artificiality when deliberately affected or when appreciated for its humor
adj.
Having deliberately artificial, vulgar, banal, or affectedly humorous qualities or style: played up the silliness of their roles for camp effect.
kitsch
noun
Sentimentality or vulgar, often pretentious bad taste, especially in the arts:
adj.
Of, being, or characterized by kitsch
tacky
adj.
a. Lacking style or good taste; tawdry: tacky clothes.
b. Distasteful or offensive; tasteless: a tacky remark.
cheesy
adj.
a. Containing or resembling cheese.
b. Informal. Of poor quality; shoddy.
What do you think? The only one I really agree with is tacky. And, of course, definition “a” of cheesy. I mean, who can disagree with that one? 
But, I don’t think of cheesy as being of poor quality. Rather, for me, cheesy is kind of silly, goofy… ya know?
But, I’m not sure they have camp right. At least not the way it is in my mind. The “affectation or appreciation of manners and tastes commonly thought to be artificial, banal” is ok. But, I wouldn’t have said camp is necessarily vulgar. However, I do think camp is done for the humors’ sake.
I disagree that kitsch being vulgar. And, I wouldn’t say it is pretentious either. Though, there is bad taste in there, 'cause, again, I see it as related to tacky. As someone said, something is kitsch 'cause it is so tacky, it has become “stylish” in its own… well… lack of style.
Just my NT$2
‘Song’ is a Taiwanese word, not Mandarin, but one of the Taiwanese words most commonly used by Taiwanese speaking Mandarin. The mandarin equivalent is ‘su’ 俗.
‘Song’ can definitely be used to mean lacking in style, low-class (and therefore ‘tacky’). But that is a bit different from kitsch and cheesy, which often imply some kind of irony.
QM, I think those definitions are all pretty good except for ‘cheesy’, which to me is fairly close to kitsch. Think of the meaning of ‘vulgar’ in the sense of ‘common’ rather than ‘coarse’.
OK, my toughest Chinese word to translate into English is ‘shuang’ 爽
Brian
I’m not normally a pedant, but today I would just like someone to correct the title of this thread.
Ironlady thingks she has it bad. OR Ironlady thought she had it bad.
I just need to address the ‘how to verb object?’ problem in another thread and then I can chill out and enjoy my weekend. Sorry all. It won’t happen again
[quote=“Southpaw”]I’m not normally a pedant, but today I would just like someone to correct the title of this thread.
Ironlady thingks she has it bad. OR Ironlady thought she had it bad.[/quote]It is supposed to mean “Ironlady thought she has it bad, but she doesn’t have to translate words like this, so it is not as bad as she thought” 
hmm…That makes more sense. My mind is a little more at ease thanks to you speedy response.
I heard this interesting interview by a guy called Christopher Moore, a linguist, on NPR today. He has researched untranslatable words and phrases and complied them into a book.
Here are a few interesting ones I copied from the NPR website:
ilunga (Tshiluba) [ee-Iun-ga] (noun)
This word from the Tshiluba language of the Republic of Congo has topped a list drawn up with the help of one thousand translators as the most untranslatable word in the world. It describes a person who is ready to forgive any transgression a first time and then to tolerate it for a second time, but never for a third time.
Arabic
taarradhin [tah-rah-deen] (noun)
Arabic has no word for “compromise” in the sense of reaching an arrangement via struggle and disagreement. But a much happier concept, taarradhin, exists in Arabic. It implies a happy solution for everyone, an “I win, you win.” It’s a way of resolving a problem without anyone losing face.
Chinese
guanxi (Mandarin) [gwan-shee] (noun)
This is one of the essential ways of getting things done in traditional Chinese society. To build up good guanxi, you do things for people such as give them gifts, take them to dinner, or grant favors. Conversely, you can also “use up” your guanxi with someone by calling in favors owed. Once a favor is done, an unspoken obligation exists. Maybe because of this, people often try to refuse gifts, because, sooner or later, they may have to repay the debt. However the bond of guanxi is rarely acquitted, because once the relationship exists, it sets up an endless process that can last a lifetime.
Czech
litost [lee-tosht] (noun)
This is an untranslatable emotion that only a Czech person would suffer from, defined by Milan Kundera as “a state of torment created by the sudden sight of one’s own misery.” Devices for coping with extreme stress, suffering, and change are often special and unique to cultures and born out of the meeting of despair with a keen sense of survival.
French
esprit de I’escalier [es-pree de less-ka/-iay] (idiom)
A witty remark that occurs to you too late, literally on the way down the stairs. The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations defines esprit de l’escalier as, “An untranslatable phrase, the meaning of which is that one only thinks on one’s way downstairs of the smart retort one might have made in the drawing room.”
German
korinthenkacker [core-in-ten-cuck-er] (noun)
A “raisin pooper” – that is, someone so taken up with life’s trivial detail that they spend all day crapping raisins. You can spot these types a mile off – it’s that irritating pen pusher or filing fanatic whose favorite job is tidying up the stationery cupboard.
Greek
meraki [may-rah-kee] (adjective)
This is a word that modern Greeks often use to describe doing something with soul, creativity, or love – when you put “something of yourself” into what you’re doing, whatever it may be. Meraki is often used to describe cooking or preparing a meal, but it can also mean arranging a room, choosing decorations, or setting an elegant table.
Japanese
tatemae [tah-tay-mye] (noun)
A term often translated as “form,” but it also has the specific cultural meaning of “the reality that everyone professes to be true, even though they may not privately believe it.” For privately held views, the Japanese have a different term, honne, meaning, “the reality that you hold inwardly to be true, even though you would never admit it publicly.” The British civil servant muttering the reproach “bad form, old boy” over a drink in the club, may be expressing something very close to the quality of tatamae.
yoko meshi [yoh-koh mesh-ee] (noun)
“As an untranslatable, this one ranks high on my list of favorites. I could not improve on the background given by commentator Boye Lafayette de Mente about this beautiful word, yoko meshi. Taken literally, meshi means ‘boiled rice’ and yoko means ‘horizontal,’ so combined you get 'a meal eaten sideways.'This is how the Japanese define the peculiar stress induced by speaking a foreign language: yoko is a humorous reference to the fact that Japanese is normally written vertically, whereas most foreign languages are written horizontally. How do English-speakers describe the headache of communicating in an alien tongue? I don’t think we can, at least not with as much ease.”
Spanish
duende [dwen-day] (adjective)
This wonderful word captures an entire world of passion, energy, and artistic excellence and describes a climactic show of spirit in a performance or work of art. Duende originally meant “imp” or “goblin” and came to mean anything magical. It now has a depth and complexity of meaning that crosses artistic borders, from flamenco dancing to bullfighting. The Spanish poet Garcia Lorca wrote an eloquent essay on duende that explores the complex and inspirational flavor of its sense, and I know no better introduction.
How about “waishengren” 
Haha, Korinthenkacker is a beautiful word.
But I always considered it to be the funny version of “Pedant”, for which my dictionary is stating “pedant” or “stickler” in English.
And a funny expression for an “official word” is not really an official word itself, I guess.
Usually, the German word “Heimat” is given as an example of an untranslatable word, as it means “home”, but bears a truckload of emotions with “the green green fields on home and mum’s cherry cake and stuff”.
My dictionary tries to translate
Heimat -> home … but that’s not it.
(Normally: Heim -> home) … which is more the house or location
I thought it could be “homeland”, but my dictionary says:
homeland -> Heimatland
And I am not sure if “homeland” has the cherrycake and the horrible traditonal folk band playing in the background … 
‘Motherland’ would meet that description for me, but I guess it depends upon whether a person’s mother made cherry pie for him or her when he or she was young.
My favourite Chinese word is 三八. Literally translated incompressibly as
Some more German words that AFAIK don’t have a direct translation for all occassions:
Kindergarten
“children’s garden” - a pre-school/play-school
Schadenfreude
“malicious joy” - being happy about some else’ misfortune
Actually I have seen quite a few German words used in English/American publications that cannot be translated directly, ‘Angst’ [fear (of life)] being another example.
Motherland doesn’t capture it, actually in German we use ‘Vaterland’ (fatherland).
“Heimat” is more like the place (usually not the entire country) you feel most at home at or long to go back to.
One should note that there are translations for most of the words, but they may not always capture the intended meaning correctly.