[quote=“Jaboney”]Ho-hum. “Freedom dies.” Such silliness.
[quote=“David Frum”]Conservatives and Republicans today suffered their most crushing legislative defeat since the 1960s.
It’s hard to exaggerate the magnitude of the disaster. Conservatives may cheer themselves that they’ll compensate for today’s expected vote with a big win in the November 2010 elections. But:
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(2) So what? Legislative majorities come and go. This healthcare bill is forever. A win in November is very poor compensation for this debacle now.
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A huge part of the blame for today’s disaster attaches to conservatives and Republicans ourselves.
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This time, when we went for all the marbles, we ended with none.
Could a deal have been reached? Who knows? But we do know that [color=#0000FF]the gap between this plan and traditional Republican ideas is not very big. The Obama plan has a broad family resemblance to Mitt Romney’s Massachusetts plan. It builds on ideas developed at the Heritage Foundation in the early 1990s that formed the basis for Republican counter-proposals to Clintoncare in 1993-1994.[/color]
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No illusions please: This bill will not be repealed.
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We followed the most radical voices in the party and the movement, and they led us to abject and irreversible defeat.[/quote][/quote]
Mitt certainly doesn’t like the passed version of the bill.
[quote]Mitt Romney [color=#0000FF]took a moment his book tour[/color] to lambaste the new health care law…
"President Obama has betrayed his oath to the nation — rather than bringing us together, ushering in a new kind of politics, and rising above raw partisanship, he has succumbed to the lowest denominator of incumbent power: justifying the means by extolling the ends. He promised better; we deserved better,‘’ [color=#0000FF]Romney wrote in a statement on the website of his political action committee, Free and Strong America[/color].
That [color=#0000FF]campaign begins today.[/color]‘’[/quote]
Romney’s proven to be as consistent and principled as Palin is sage and nuanced. I’m not a big fan of Frum, but he’s far more honest, intelligent and thoughtful than any members of party wing he’s at war with. Whose views deserve serious consideration isn’t even a question.
Big victory; mediocre bill. A foot in the door; thin edge of the wedge.
[quote=“Northcoast Surfer”]$938 billion USD over the next 10 years! :fume:
Where is that money going to come from? Increased taxes![/quote]
Probably, but which is more expensive, paying for emergency room visits for uninsured or raising taxes to pay for a rational, effective delivery of health care?
By the way, how does this compare to the cost of the “war” in Iraq over the past 7 years and what has been the benefit to the American citizen?
It seems the right has really picked up on that ‘liberty dies to thunderous applause’ meme. Google it and you will find it on all the right wing blogs.
[quote=“CraigTPE”][quote=“Northcoast Surfer”]$938 billion USD over the next 10 years! :fume:
Where is that money going to come from? Increased taxes![/quote]Probably, but which is more expensive, paying for emergency room visits for uninsured or raising taxes to pay for a rational, effective delivery of health care?[/quote]I don’t want to pay for anyone except for myself and my family. Why should my tax money go to benefit others who don’t work hard enough to get their own insurance? I have never taken any public assistance and I won’t.
[quote=“CraigTPE”]By the way, how does this compare to the cost of the “war” in Iraq over the past 7 years and what has been the benefit to the American citizen?[/quote]I don’t compare apples and oranges. If you want to throw in the cost of the war in Iraq, then by all mean throw in Afganistan while you’re at it. In fact, let’s add the cost of the undocumented workers and the strain that it puts on the whole system, too. Now the undocumented want an overhaul in the immigration system. ie. They want citizenship for illegally entering and working in America. Yeah, good plan.
I wonder where these Sons of Liberty were when the Patriot Act was signed or Homeland Security was established. Rather reminiscent of The Night Before Christmas, actually.
Also ironic, because George Lucas is a well-known liberal.
It’s called “projection”. The Republicans love to talk about how the “liberals will take away your freedoms”, whereas in reality it’s the Republicans who work so hard to limit freedom, whereas the liberals work to preserve and expand it.
Because no man is an island. We live in a society, and sometimes through no fault of our own we come down with serious diseases or are hit by hard times.
[quote=“Northcoast Surfer”]$938 billion USD over the next 10 years! :fume:
Where is that money going to come from? Increased taxes![/quote]
Hmmm… how much has Bush’s Iraq War cost over the last 7 years? Far more than $938 billion. Yet that’s somehow OK.
In any case, there’s more than one way to raise the money: reallocation of budget, for one. Move some money from the military budget into healthcare, for example.
[quote=“Northcoast Surfer”]I don’t want to pay for anyone except for myself and my family. Why should my tax money go to benefit others who don’t work hard enough to get their own insurance? I have never taken any public assistance and I won’t.[/quote]Of course not: you don’t drive on public roads, depend on public security forces, use publicly delivered water, and you certainly don’t breath the same air as those sick, lazy, immuno-comprised plague vectors, nor their children nor their associates. Why should you care?
Btw, I’ve got a freehold stake and self-contained dome on the Moon for sale. I know you’ll love it. PM me for details.
However, fact of the matter is that in the current US system, taxpayers do in fact end up paying for the uninsured through higher taxes and higher fees for service. Don’t think for a second that those hospital emergency rooms aren’t getting theirs.
And you sound like that guy who was yelling at the guy with Parkinsons’ disease and threw money at him to pay for his care. While it’s respectable to not take any public assistance, not everyone is in that position, and not because they don’t work hard enough. Some people work plenty hard but still can’t afford hospitals. People who work very hard, AND earned enough money to be comfortable the rest of their lives, still take Medicare and Social Security when they get older. I wonder, would you?
It’s not comparing apples and oranges, it’s determining the best way to spend the American tax dollar. I’d rather have them spent helping people not killing people. (Not an original quote.)
The military-industrial complex is one of the few somewhat healthy American industries left though. Rather than helping people, killing people would be a real way to kick-start the economy.
You do not have freedom to spend your money any way you like, it is an instrument or medium of trade that only exists and has value because of the laws and enforcement that backs it. The money you receive for your work and your investments is only yours once the government has taxed it, and if you don’t like the rate it taxes you or the fact that it taxes you at all or what it does with your tax money, then vote for change, and if you think your vote doesn’t count under the current system then vote to change the current system, or choose another system elsewhere.
Most people in the US are one lawsuit or traffic accident or terrible illness or plunge in housing price away from being bankrupt, and most people in the US are living paycheck to paycheck and/or have little to no savings and/or are deeply in debt, and could be laid off anytime - therefore, most people are in danger of losing their medical insurance, or their ability to pay for it, at any time. In the 2005-6 survey I cited earlier, between 60% and 70% of Americans believe they have a right to healthcare, and in this modern day and age and society, of course they do. It’s all a tangle of how to get it paid for, and the Republicans more than the Democrats are in the bag with the insurance companies and with their general “ethic” that “less government is better”, and if health insurance is nationalized, it’s a slippery slope to other industries - as it should be. But that’s horseshit (or as I learned recently, “Vey SAI” in Taiwanese): everyone gets it or you’re a selfish bastard who can’t see that you could be in the same boat someday too, or else you’re lucky enough to be rich enough to always be safe. Simple as that.
Wow! I really stirred up some shit. Allow me to clarify and add a few things.
I was completely against the initial invasion of Iraq and Afganistan and I am still against the current wars that are occuring there. I didn’t want my tax money supporting these wars and I still don’t want my tax money supporting these wars.
I don’t want my tax money supporting this new health care system, either. So, even though I have never supported the two wars currently occuring in Iraq and Afganistan, I don’t want those monies redirected toward the new health care reform.
Taiwan’s NHI. I have it. I rarely use it. Taiwan’s NHI has nothing to do with America’s health care reform, so I don’t feel it’s a valid argument whether I use it or not. Taiwan’s population is merely 24 million. America’s population is 307,000,000, not including the approximately 14 million undocumented aliens. A huge difference in cost, administration, etc.
US Social Security. I don’t need it. I will take it. Why? I paid into it, and not by choice. I either want all of the money I paid into it, or I will settle for the monthly benefits when I qualify. If there is anything left to it, that is.
Medicare. Won’t ever need it.
I do not have problem with paying taxes. I like to pay taxes. But, I want my taxes to go for things that I want and believe will benefit everyone as a whole. Quality police, firefighters, utilities, roads, parks, environmental protection, research into clean energy. However, the main thing I would like to see my tax monies used for is educational programs. I naively believe that if we can provide a quality education to all Americans that the other problems will solve themselves. Of course this doesn’t take into consideration the lack of motivation or initiative of the individual themself. Lazy people won’t work no matter what educational benefits are afforded them.
I don’t see welfare, food stamps, WIC, and the like as benefiting everyone as a whole and I’m against these programs. Provide these people with education and with their willingness to learn, they could provide for themselves. But, would they want to provide for themselves?
Recently, my city back in the US voted on a levy to increase taxes so that we could continue a bus system for people without cars. I voted no and so did the majority of the other voters. Why should I vote yes to increase my taxes so that someone who can’t afford a car can ride a partially publicly subsidized bus system which can’t support itself through the rider fees?
The best answer I can give to your posts is that your vision of society was tried in the west and found wanting. It still exists in many places in the east, Africa, and South America and these places too are wanting by any standards.
Like education, most countries in the west long ago settled that health care is a fundamental right that must be provided to everyone to smooth out inequalities as much as possible by giving everyone at least a fighting chance to succeed.
So that poor young men don’t shoot you in anger when you make it that much harder for them to raisse themselves out of poverty
Then I suggest the Chinese. Not only do they own 800 billion clams of US debt, they manufacture much of what Americans purchase, AND they use a buttload of oil.
Attacking China would a) effectively cancel the debt; b) destroy the Chinese manufacturing center, thus reinvigorating the US manufacturing base; and c) reduce the Chinese need for oil and coal.
All that sounds ideal but the fact is, you can not be sure you will always have your job and your house and whatever else. What you say sounds great to you now, but that could change in the blink of an eye for you, and then you’re screwed. Or else you’re sufficiently wealthy to be able to afford losing a house and a high paying job and going into debt from an illness or car accident, at which point you owe society and government even more for setting up a system that allowed you to accumulate that wealth.
The US government provides an environment for business that allows them to fairly easily lay people off when the company is not doing well, or even when it is making a profit but not enough for their appetite and shareholders. This environment is not friendly at all to retraining, as there is very little social safety net for the 6 months to 1+ years of retraining and additional education needed if your job falls through and there’s nothing else to do in your area. We haven’t even talked about what happens to your kids, their schooling, and so on.
If the government is going to allow such an environment for business, then it has a social obligation to provide the basics to survive to those individuals who are negatively affected by the ups and downs of the business cycle and the bottom line, and also to those who are in the educational system or are retraining.
That obligation must include basic shelter, food, transportation, health insurance or actual health care, and subsidizing or at least loaning money for the education/retraining effort. Many many great things have come from business and the fairly-free business environment of the US, but businesses and the government are here to serve society, society and government are not here to serve business, and the business world is not the top priority or the end goal here, it’s ensuring a safe and stable society for the maximal amount of citizens.
To say that “US Social Security. I don’t need it” and “Medicare. Won’t ever need it.” and “Provide these people with education and with their willingness to learn, they could provide for themselves.” is not only selfish but ignorant and potentially untrue - unless you are already wealthy or waiting on a huge inheritance, you don’t know what situation you’ll be in in even 1 year nevermind 5 to 10 years, and just because things are working out nicely for you now does not mean at all they will continue to work out that way. What are you gonna do if you find you have a huge cancer inside that’s not covered by your medical insurance, or worse, that you lose your insurance with your job and then find out about the cancer? What happens if a hit and run driver leaves you missing a body part and they never find the guy to pay? What happens if your nest egg of retirement savings goes fwwwwwwwp like many people in 2001 and again in 2008, and you find yourself really needing those social security payments? A lot of people do, man, and they are not lazy at all.
As for “Provide these people with education and with their willingness to learn, they could provide for themselves.”, that’s also entirely untrue - how about all the people that got laid off recently (the 10% unemployment rate only includes people looking for work, not chronic welfare-type cases) - you think they don’t have a degree and aren’t looking for a job? It just isn’t that easy for a lot of people, and people often can’t just pick up and move around the country or the world to find a new job.
I thought it was about doing something unnecessary and foolish and then spending (and I really mean "spending) the next 50 years trying to unfuck it…hoping for a sunny outcome.
Rather than helping people, killing people would be a real way to kick-start the economy.