Strange how the conversation begins with the subject of US soldiers torturing and murdering scores of detainees, many of whom have not been charged with any crimes, in their own country which we invaded without legitimate cause. . .
and then it shifts to the US supporting torturing and murdering of scores of innocent people in another land where we had no business. . .
but somehow, from those clear examples of wrongdoing, some posters, as they always do, are able to twist it all around to villifying other regimes and glorifying the grand ole US of A.
Don’t you guys ever admit that sometimes our troops and our government have fucked up. . . and fucked up big time? Your arguments might be a little more convincing if you would admit that yes, sometimes we fucked up, but we basically have good intentions, are doing the best we can and hope to learn from our mistakes, rather than sticking your head in the sand, condemning only others and admitting no faults.
Quite often, this is true. Jack, beating, torture and killing is the RULE in communist countries.[/quote]
lots of posts in a flurry. let me try to address some of them.
I am not defending communism; neither am i a supporter of governments of n.korea, ussr, etc. get that straight. my grandparents and parents fled china, and i am grateful they did that for me. i am not advocating overthrowing of such and such western institutions. I realize that many of these so-called communists govt are nothing more than power grabs and thuggery at heart. and yes, Blueface I do understand that lots of bad things happen in these places, and we in the west, are protected by and large, and shielded by law almost all of the time.
yes, i entered china after tiananmen. i was still watched suspiciously by police (they always thought i was some korean trying to jump the embassy wall). my relatives went thru the cultural revolution etc. i do not take these things for granted.
just because i bring up allende and chile, you people get all flustered and defensive, and we’re back to the you’re a commie sympathesizer who had the benefits of western democracy hypocrite, commies are bad scenario. how dull and repetitious.
if fred actually read the article i posted, he might actually realize what i was referring to, and then he might actually write something relevant and constructive to my post, instead of rehashing the same old same old. if you read thru the article, you will find out the records are tapes by Kissinger of him and Nixon, and why don’t you read about what came out of his mouth.
Fred, why would i run to the US embassy for help? like they would help me anyways! duh!
Prove American involvement in Chile. I want evidence and proof right now. Show me the proof. Show me the evidence. Where is it? Everything has been declassified now. All tapes. All documents. Surely you can show me one that will prove American complicity in Chile.
Then, I am sure you would be more than happy to prove American involvement. All of the tapes and records have been declassified and unless you have seen something that I have not, I don’t see that America was directly involved at all. But feel free to prove me wrong. Put up or shut up.
Oh hold on here. Where does it say that these 3,000 killed were “students.” Just “students?” And what about Cuba’s involvement in Chile during these three years. I would say that Cuba was much more involved with supporting Allende from 1970 to 1973 than the US was with supporting Pinochet in 1973-1976.
So in all these Leftist screeds bewailing America’s complicity in Allende’s overthrow, why is Cuban support and direct involvement in Allende’s rise and government never discussed? Oh I get it because only America can do bad things, if it is Cuba, that must be helping the “people,” right?[/quote]
I don’t deny that Cuba was involved in meddling in Chilean internal affairs and their was a real possibility of a Santiago-Havana axis. Allende’s Marxist leanings and disrespect for the legislature polarized Chilean society and left it vulnerable to the coup and to American meddling. Ambassador Kerry (a Kennedy man) and Nixon both wanted Allende out. However, once Pinochet came to power, he polarized Chilean society even further. I think more strings should have been attached when the US was giving this “indirect” assistance. Post-1973, the US continued the military assistance and didn’t even put selective pressure on the new regime to stop the human rights violations. Only Teddy, as the documents show, tried to adopt some resolutions in the Senate.
Helms was “spot on” when he stated that Chile lost twice in swinging from the extreme left to extreme right. But then Helms and Nixon were never that close, were they? Nixon always thought Helms was just another "Georgetown elitist and he though Helms fucked up royally in “Track 1”
Show me in the article that you posted where it proves American complicity in Chile. I am not saying anything other than the fact that you posted this seems to imply active interest or tacit agreement or why post it? BUT since all US documents and tapes (as mentioned) have been declassified, where is the evidence that the US was directly or actively involved? Where’s the money? Where are the weapons? Where was the wink and nod agreement to Pinochet to go ahead? Nada. (Spanish for nothing).
What the US did was to freeze bank accounts since Allende had nationalized US property. We stopped giving him aid. Oh my goodness there’s an idea. Stop sending aid to those who attack your interests. We also used our influence to stop funds from international organizations getting to Allende. Oh goodness. Almost as bad as oh gosh golly gee the French? Germans? Russians? Chinese?
So what is your point? Do you believe that the US was 100 percent responsible for Allende’s overthrow? 80 percent? 50 percent? 25 percent 10 percent? 5 percent?
Prove American involvement in Chile. I want evidence and proof right now. Show me the proof. Show me the evidence. Where is it? Everything has been declassified now. All tapes. All documents. Surely you can show me one that will prove American complicity in Chile.
Notice how little JB ran off when I pressed him on the subject. Wonder why?[/quote]
I didn’t read JB’s article closely on Kissinger and Nixon discussing the subject and I dont have time to google the subject presently, but teh fact that there’s been considerable abuse, torture, murder, inadvertent killings of detainees and other uncharged civilians in Guantanamo, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc., is clear. Can’t you even admit that the army apparently didnt’ properly train or supervise prison guards and interrogators in Iraq? That US soldiers should not have punched, sodomized, asphyxiated and sexually humiliated so many people? That wedding parties were inadvertently blown up? Etc. Can’t you admit that sometimees the US has fucked up?
Of course the US has fucked up on occasion but being such a concerned citizen when it comes to human rights, I naturally expect that you will wait until the investigation is complete and the evidence proves their guilt. Do you suppose now that those who are imprisoned might have an incentive to lie about abuse to get favorable treatment or even release? Think that might happen? Also for many of these people, I quite frankly don’t give a rat’s ass about their “rights” since many of them upon release would probably be more than happy to fly another plane into some civilian target. This is not a police operation people. This is a war. And we did not start it.
That is an analysis of the situation outlining all the pros and cons of action that could hypothetically be taken. I see that under the “worst” actions suggested were cutting off aid and pressuring international agencies to do so as well. Any mention of coup? military overthrow? weapons to opposition? money to opposition? Anywhere? Nope. So the worst the US was going to do was done. We stopped aid and pressured international agencies to do so. Thanks for the document buttressing my views.
[quote=“Jack Burton”][
3. just because i bring up allende and chile, you people get all flustered and defensive, and we’re back to the you’re a commie sympathesizer who had the benefits of western democracy hypocrite, commies are bad scenario. how dull and repetitious.[/quote]
I’m not flustered or defensive. It’s not a scenario. It wasn’t play acting when I was in Vietnam and I imagine your parents and grandparents felt the same when they escaped China.
[quote=“blueface666”][quote=“Jack Burton”][
3. just because i bring up allende and chile, you people get all flustered and defensive, and we’re back to the you’re a commie sympathesizer who had the benefits of western democracy hypocrite, commies are bad scenario. how dull and repetitious.[/quote]
I’m not flustered or defensive. It’s not a scenario. It wasn’t play acting when I was in Vietnam and I imagine your parents and grandparents felt the same when they escaped China.[/quote]
Too bad it wasn’t play acting. Instead we used real guns, bombs and napalm.
[quote]“Well we didn’t - as you know - our hand doesn’t show on this one, though,” Nixon told Kissinger in the Sept. 16 transcript.
“We didn’t do it. I mean we helped them,” Kissinger told Nixon, adding that “(deleted) created the conditions as great as possible,” in an apparent reference to a person or institution. [/quote]
I can’t tell you what % US involvement was. that’s a farcical question, since we both know we don’t have access to this information.
but kissinger said the US helped them. what does that tell you?
yes, US soldiers didn’t go in there and personally depose Allende (don’t give me these strawman arguments fs).
and i’d like to know what was deleted. someone in the US government logically, otherwise why would it be censored by the govt.
is this former CIA man lying?
[quote]on Oct. 11, Broe sent this cable from CIA headquarters to the Santiago station:
SUB-MACHINE GUNS AND AMMO BEING SENT BY REGULAR (deleted) COURIER LEAVING WASHINGTON 0700 HOURS 19 OCTOBER DUE ARRIVE SANTIAGO LATE EVENING 20 OCTOBER OR EARLY MORNING 21 OCTOBER. [/quote]
That is an analysis of the situation outlining all the pros and cons of action that could hypothetically be taken. I see that under the “worst” actions suggested were cutting off aid and pressuring international agencies to do so as well. Any mention of coup? military overthrow? weapons to opposition? money to opposition? Anywhere? Nope. So the worst the US was going to do was done. We stopped aid and pressured international agencies to do so. Thanks for the document buttressing my views.[/quote]
Again, you don’t prove your point. Yes, no secret the US wanted to keep Allende from taking over, but this is PRIOR to his presidency. What does it have to do with our “overthrow” of Allende? Nothing. And what kind of measures were they trying to do? Public relations? Lobbying? US$250,000 does not go far. Where is the active involvement in buying generals? supplying weapons? etc. etc. and believe me even in 1970 dollars, US$250,000 wasn’t going to cut it. The US$10 million was part of a scenario outlined in a policy analysis document. What proof that it was ever enacted? None.
I will continue to await proof, facts or any other evidence. Trust me, you might have a hard time with this. Now that the documents and tapes have been declassified, many of the earlier books (mostly polemics) which purported to “know” by suggesting “events” have now been proved wrong by the release of tapes and documents. The information in these documents and tapes was “alleged” to contain references and information and directives, but now that we see them, guess what? Nada. So back to square one for you but good luck and good effort trying. If you find something, call the NY Times, I am sure that they will be very interested. Look at the story posted by JB. Nixon and Kissinger talking on a tape about how they were glad to see him go and how they felt they played some part in that, but what? economic sanctions? cutting off aid? influencing international organizations to cut off aid? How is that illegal or even unethical? I don’t like your charity. I stop supporting it. What are you going to do sue me?
This perfect historical “hindsight” is somewhat annoying. Why is it that the Cubans get a free pass to interfere, the French are being “realistic” when they use every asset in their arsenal to “influence” but we get hit left right and center with NO proof.
You are worse than a woman. (Come on Alien. Here kitty kitty)…
What am I supposed to respond to? Have you supplied any proof whatsoever of American complicity in the overthrow of Allende? Hmmm. One fact. One piece of evidence. What am I supposed to respond to? your article. What does it prove? Kissinger and Nixon said they were happy that Allende was overthrown and congratulated themselves sorta for their role? What role? Economic sanctions, cutting off aid and influencing international organizations to do the same. So what? Big Deal? What’s your point? More importantly, where’s your evidence?
You are worse than a woman. (Come on Alien. Here kitty kitty)…
What am I supposed to respond to? Have you supplied any proof whatsoever of American complicity in the overthrow of Allende? Hmmm. One fact. One piece of evidence. What am I supposed to respond to? your article. What does it prove? Kissinger and Nixon said they were happy that Allende was overthrown and congratulated themselves sorta for their role? What role? Economic sanctions, cutting off aid and influencing international organizations to do the same. So what? Big Deal? What’s your point? More importantly, where’s your evidence?[/quote]
just as i thought. i don’t think you even bothered to read the content of my last post.
I have to admit. If you have a point, I sure as hell don’t know what it is. Why don’t you clarify and try to explain what it is that I am supposed to react to. I get it that you don’t approve of Stalin et al. and that you entered China with your Chinese ID and you wouldn’t go running to the American embassy because they cannot do anything but then what is the point of posting the article that you did? Why post it? What were your motives?
It’s not a scenario. It wasn’t play acting when I was in Vietnam and I imagine your parents and grandparents felt the same when they escaped China.
