US - Israeli Relationship

No JB:

Unacceptable. I want specific examples of how America kept democracy from taking place in America’s backyard. I can think of only one example where a DEMOCRACY was overthrown by the Americans. ONLY one. If you have others, please feel free to share, but I don’t think that you will be able to come up with any.

Have we tried to influence nations and stop communism yes. Have we overthrown democratically elected governments, please supply info.

[quote=“fred smith”]

Have we tried to influence nations and stop communism yes. Have we overthrown democratically elected governments, please supply info.[/quote]

Chile’s Allende was democratically elected and he wasn’t a communist but the U.S. supported his overthrow by a fascist dictator desperately looking to find alternative uses for large stadia.

Bernardo O’Higgins lives!

Sorry Brune Ale:

You will have to come up with proof and evidence that the US was even directly involved. Yes, there is little doubt that the US was not a friend of Allende’s but what I have been given in the other thread by the anti-american brigade is that we were culpable for not giving aid to a regime and by refusing to trade with it. As if we are obligated to help our enemies or at the very least very unfriendly regimes. This regime after all had nationalized a great deal of American property, but then international law is only used to prosecute certain nation’s actions I guess. AND besides, it was necessary to do so to build the worker’s paradise.

Clinton released a number of documents related to Chile which have corrected this oft cited canard. Proof please.

I actually had a different nation in mind but surely since there are so many examples of the US atrocities around the world, overthrowing or opposing democracies being one of them, surely there must be several more examples. Surely?

[quote=“fred smith”]Spook:

I expect that you will also be howling about the unsettled state of affairs in the following places:

Basque region of Spain/France
Northern Ireland
Kurdistan (Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Iran)

If not, it MUST be because Israel is holding back Middle East peace right? Or would it be just a hint of anti-Semitism showing its ugly face?[/quote]

In which of those regions you cite above are millions of stateless, voteless people confined in ghettos within the borders of a country which claims to be a western-style democracy?

My question remains unanswered.

I suspect the real answer is, as you suggest, anti-Semitism. The majority of Americans are able to look upon 3.5 million people of Semitic origin caged within a ghetto in a stateless limbo by an ally and feel nothing just as their forebears apparently felt no sense of identity with the millions of European Jewish people being herded into ghettos in the 1930’s by German authorities.

Well when the Israelis start gassing them let me know. When the Israelis were going to turn over 97% of all that they wanted and they said no and have called for destruction of the state of Israel, then I have no sympathy. AND the World War II analogy is a poor one, no one was interested in helping the Jews and Germany was not surrounded by Jewish states with 200 milliion Jews against its 6 million (1 million of which are Arabs in Israel) so the analogy is a poor one and I hearken back to my example of East Prussia. Germany started World War II and looked what happened to Prussia, Pomerania and Silesia. The Arabs have started 3 to 5 wars depending on how you count them and have lost no territory. How is this persecuting the Arabs?

Finally, given that Arafat visited the white house more than any foreign leader during Clinton’s tenure and threw it all in his face, how is this showing lack of concern? The Palestinians pulled a lot of stunts and now they must pay the price. Who else has ever gotten away with such shit? Now, they have made their bed, let them lie in it and be grateful that they are not expelled like they deserve to be.

[quote=“fred smith”]
I actually had a different nation in mind [/quote]

Oh? Which one?

Well Brune Ale (Broon)

If you cannot think of zillions of more examples, does that not just prove my point. The only one I can think of where a democratically elected government was overthrown by the US was …

Now, if you cannot come up with that, then what is this discussion about?

[quote=“BroonAle”][quote=“fred smith”]
I actually had a different nation in mind [/quote]

Oh? Which one?[/quote]


I was going to mention Grenada. Which is part of the Commonwealth. :uk:

The replies to my question raise more questions than they answer. Now I have three:

  1. How can a nation which claims to be a bona fide democracy keep 3.5 million of its native-born inhabitants stateless and voteless and claim to be a true democracy?

  2. How can a democracy claim that civil rights are privileges and not fundamental rights of all human beings?

  3. How can a democracy and ally of the U.S. claim the right to expel millions of its native-born inhabitants for any reason, particularly because of a fear of their potential votes?

In other news, Hamas founder apparently has been killed in a missile attack after leaving mosque.

Great. so now he’s a martyr. things will only get shittier.

First JB:

You said DEMOCRACIES overthrown by the US. And I long ago acknowledged that the US has been active in trying to influence regimes etc.

Which of these was a genuine democracy. Hint: Ortega was not among that category nor were many of the others. Been reading a lot of Noam Chomsky recently JB? haha If you are going to kill brain cells, take my advice and stick to alcohol. So much more amusing.

Second, given that the US does not act in a moral or strategic vacuum, were any other actors also involved?

Therefore we are back to your original assertion that the US does not support democracies and all I am asking is when and where. You have certainly not answered this satisfactorily so if you are going to make these sweeping claims back them up or retract.

As to you spook:

First not all of these people are native-born. Only since 1967 and then they were occupied peoples not citizens. But be very careful, if you are saying that you recognize Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and Gaza to mean that this territory is within its respective sovereignty then these people are engaging in a civil war and during wartime, we all know that “emergency powers” are granted even in democracies, but I hardly think that you want to go down the road of acknowledging Israel’s right to the West Bank and Gaza now do you?

I will assume that the defeaning silence is indicative of the fallacies of the position that the US has consistently or even regularly opposed or overthrew genuine multiparty democracies.

Game, Set and Match to Fred


Not so fast. Some of us have jobs.

How was your weekend? Hope it was pleasant and relaxing.

(That’s an easy question for you. Thought it was time I gave you a break after all the tough questions I’ve been throwing at you.)

I think the natural border for Israel is the Jordan River, as the current government of Israel proclaims in its platform. I won’t bring up the issue of Geneva Conventions regarding the treatment of people in occupied territories though because you don’t, as I recall, recognize the Geneva Conventions so that’s a moot point.

One man, one vote. I bet that thought sends shudders down your spine.

[quote=“fred smith”]I will assume that the defeaning silence is indicative of the fallacies of the position that the US has consistently or even regularly opposed or overthrew genuine multiparty democracies.

Game, Set and Match to Fred[/quote]

do you often play tennis by yourself, friend?

were France and Italy not democracies after ww2?
did the US not want to see their respective communist parties from winning the elections?
did they not influence the elections in some way to prevent those parties from winning in a mulitparty democratic free election.

or perhaps, to fred, the italians and french aren’t genuine. :unamused:


I recognize the Geneva convention but not to the way some would like to have it applied. Big difference. And yes, I do like to play with myself.


I’m sorry. Am I confused? Now were are down to “influencing” elections but that was not what we had earlier. We had opposing democracy. How is the US effort to prevent the Communists from winning in France or Italy akin to opposing democracy. In fact, if we fight terrorist from taking over Iraq are we also “opposing” democracy. Did we overthrow the governments of Italy and France. Gosh. News to me. Conspiracy. Evil America. Conspiracy. Crack pipe.

I do see, however, that you are having a major struggle to come up with a legitimate example of where in fact the US did overthrow such a democracy. I would put that as Arbenz in Guatemala in 1954. But I do believe that you have proved your own point. Hence the major backtracking on “opposing democracy” and despite all your countries, and dates, you were not able to single out Guatemala? Where did you get that list from anyway?

Finally, it is also my understanding that foreign nations try to affect US policy as well. Ever heard of the French and Italian embassies and French-American Business Association, etc etc etc. So what IS your point?

Arbenz Guatemala 1954. that is in the list. was curious if you would bring it up first.

fighting terrorists in iraq is not opposing democracy, because they aren’t on the ballot box. :slight_smile:

employing illegal means and waging proxies to intimidate voters, and prevent the communist party from winning in a free election, however, is different. i would say that is opposing democracy just as those african and caribbean banana republics rigging their own elections are also opposing democracies.
it might not be as blatant as invading guatemala, honduras, nicaragua, but it is still not letting democracy take its course.

Ah but look at what happened when the Communists took over whether in Poland, Czechoslavakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, et al. That was the end of democracy so you are saying to be consistent the US should pretend that it could not try to influence elections to prevent Communists from taking over since said actions would be killing democracy to save it?

While you are busy with sophistry 101, those of us who live in the real world will continue to do the best we as opposed to such positions which clearly lack any moral compass. So we should let al Qaeda vote in the upcoming Iraqi elections? Whadya think?

But your point which you have conveniently tried to shift away from was that the US opposes democracies. You have ONE Guatemala where the US overthrew a “democracy” but hardly a perfect one. The rest of your list is a bunch of Chomskyite drivel. Interesting that the flip side is not given, that the US did not do enough to support democracy in Indochina and therefore consigned millions to death and economic deprivation and loss of human rights that continues to this day. Compare the numbers who died in similar US-sponsored or supported “adventures” and draw your own conclusions. As an American, I realize that times were difficult and that with hindsight we have a luxury that was not given to those at the time, but that debacle is something I truly feel ashamed of, not this political science lite (America is evil) that they teach in our universities today. Ortega? Ortega? Remember Ortega? Remember what happened in Nicaragua. Seems when finally given the chance, the “people” decided to vote him out of office. Wonder why?

Well, if we allowed them to form a party and they then stood for election i) we’d find where they are and ii) maybe we could guage just how much support their grievances have and then we’d all be in a better position to deal with them. The IRA have had a recognised political wing for a long time and talking with them in Northern Ireland has significantly reduced instances of terrorism both in Northern Ireland and the British mainland. Risky but it might take the wind out of their sails.