[quote] In the early 1960s, America’s top military leaders reportedly drafted plans to kill innocent people and commit acts of terrorism in U.S. cities to create public support for a war against Cuba.
Code named Operation Northwoods, the plans reportedly included the possible assassination of Cuban émigrés, sinking boats of Cuban refugees on the high seas, hijacking planes, blowing up a U.S. ship, and even orchestrating violent terrorism in U.S. cities. [/quote]
In spite of the reality that this assertion is absolutely impossible to verify empirically, given the past 6 years, I think it’s a safe assumption that if the Bush administration had been in power then, these plans would’ve been carried out and that war would’ve mostly likely occurred.
That people are sitting around thinking up weird and illegal shit does not surprise me. That people believe that every weird shit idea would be followed through does.
This plan was signed off on by the Joint Chiefs and presented to the president, JD. I don’t think it’s just some off-the-wall job they did up for kicks!
And yes, given the lengths this administration has gone to to pursue its policies and the level of dirtiness it has shown in the measures it will resort to, I hardly think it’s a far stretch to have made my assumption.
[quote]The plans had the written approval of all of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and were presented to President Kennedy’s defense secretary, Robert McNamara, in March 1962. But they apparently were rejected by the civilian leadership and have gone undisclosed for nearly 40 years.
“These were Joint Chiefs of Staff documents. The reason these were held secret for so long is the Joint Chiefs never wanted to give these up because they were so embarrassing,” Bamford told ABCNEWS.com. [/quote]
“Apparently rejected?” I would think they rejected outright. But the rules of engagement for edutainment these days suggest relying heavily in inuendo and speculation, while tying modern conspiracy theories to factual past events.
Yawn.
Once the US had this horrific idea of dropping a bomb that would incinerate 100,000 civilians. Oh wait, they did that…twice. That means Bush wants to invade Iran.
btw, Vay, you are incorrect. The plans never went to the President. But nice try.
And gosh, the whole Northwoods site looks like an attempt to connect northwoods to 911. [quote]
As you explore some of the other strange facts you find on our website, we invite you to remember how the top US military leaders planned to manipulate public opinion to support their objectives in Operation Northwoods. Considering the above, is it beyond comprehension that similar tactics might have been used in relation to the 9/11 attacks to create a pretext for war in Afghanistan and Iraq?[/quote]
Once again…yawn. Do yourself a favor and read a little more before believing the headlines. I suggest starting with DavidIcke.com to practice critical thinking skills.
I don’t see any parallel here at all to what I said. Didn’t you notice I used the past unreal conditional (If…had…would have…)? You are drawing a conclusion about the present based on actual events from the past. I am making a hypothetical “prediction” about what would have happened in the past, had circumstances been different.
I didn’t mis-read anything, I just mis-remembered a detail. It changes nothing as to the significance of this story. And sorry, pointing out that that the backup site (not my main source) makes a 9-11 conspiracy inference is simply ad hominem. Irrelevant.
I’m not going to waste time trying to prove to you that this is exactly the kind of nastiness the current administration would go for by giving you a list of URL’s of all the illicit, unlawful, authoritarian and media-manipulating stuff they’ve pulled to date because, at the end of the day, this is a total ‘what if’ scenario that can never by empirically verified in any case – and if you haven’t noticed what’s been going on over the last six years already, you’re certainly not going to notice NOW, in spite of your apparent confidence in your critical reading skills.
Of course I fully realize that by bringing it up at all the burden of proof falls entirely upon myself and therefore, I respectfully concede defeat. Have a nice day!
[quote]
I didn’t mis-read anything, I just mis-remembered a detail.[/quote]
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. That’s mighty Bushian of you!
[quote]
And sorry, pointing out that that the backup site (not my main source) makes a 9-11 conspiracy inference is simply ad hominem. Irrelevant. [/quote]
Not when you’re using that site to try to prove your point, which is, let me get this straight, “A hypothetical prediction about what would have happened in the past, had circumstances been different.”
Keep up the good work Vay!
jdsmokinggun
Oh, and that thing about Hiroshima and Iran…it was an obvious joke. whoosh, eh?
Ok JD, in spite of your assertion that the Hiroshima/Iran thing was an obvious joke (if a joke is obvious, it should at least be “obvious” enough to make someone have some inclination to laugh, should it not?), basically it works perfectly in summing up your assumption that I am making any assertion about the present based on this article!
I am NOT. The only thing this article has to do with the present is that it is a rather interesting piece of historical trivia - I mean, my reaction upon reading it was basically “Holy SH**, these guys actually contemplated DOING this???” which was my main reason in presenting it. I never made attempted to draw any conclusion about the present, using this article as evidence - as you seem to think I’m doing - or am I being an “un-critical reader” again?
As an aside, one COULD perhaps note that the article DOES have something to teach us about current world affairs, in that it points out what some - even in America - who are fanatically dedicated to a cause are willing to do in order to achieve their ends. I’m sure, at the time, the Joint Chiefs would’ve said, in rationalizing their insane little stratagem, that “sacrifices needed to be made in the defense of freedom” (IE, to make an omelette…) and so forth - something I’ve heard used to justify countless highly questionable measures taken in recent years in the “defense of freedom”.
Again, however, this wasn’t my point. My hypothetical about “what if Bush had been in power back then” was simply a nasty little jab - and an admittedly un-supportable one, as its premise is un-testable. I suppose I could construct an inductive argument lying out all the nasty stuff this administration has already done, extrapolate that given the even higher level of paranoia and fanaticism in the 60’s, A multiplied by B would have given us the hypothetical Bush implementation of Operation Northwoods. However, I’m NOT going to attempt that – as I have already said, I cheerfully concede.
I also concede that my memory for details isn’t always great. The only things I do NOT concede are that A) my critical reading skills are lacking or that B) yours aren’t!
Nice attempt at sweeping under the carpet there JD, but as they say, those that don’t learn from history are destined to repeat it, and clearly the bunch of mind numbingly bent crooks running these type of ops are still lurking in places of power and influence.
Having just finished the biography on Neil Davis I’m alarmed how prevalent the lack of learning from history would appear to be in the US military. Davis’ critique of the US involvement in Vietnam is astonishly equally apt as a commentary on the current fuck up in Iraq. Of course he happened to die 20 years before Iraq 2.
To me it is more evidence of just how morally bankrupt the US can stoop in it’s mad folly with the world’s great windmills. Endangering US lives to provoke a military response so the US can whoop some arse is clearly a favoured and proven policy. Why don’t you adrress that aspect instead, JD?
In a long heritage of military service, this and other US devised terrorist plots effectively serves to peel back blind card-carrying trust. JD, please do share if you have more military experience than formosa’s resident chickenhawk red smith. If you do, I wonder why you aren’t also outraged, demanding more transparency about the most significant (and successful) geopolitical terrorist strategy of modern time. Vay has politely abstained from connecting the dots of this hideous plot to warp America’s public opinion in favor of violence against Cuba, serving ideological goals.
Top US military brass DID devise and unanimously approve and recommend the Operation Northwoods terrorist plot. AND these plans were effectively hidden from the public for 35+ years. This is a conspiracy reality, whether you Like it, Ignore it, or Deal with the Reality that it is.
Here’s some background considerations and facts plainly laid out for discerning readers.
Hmmm, jdsmith, I have to agree with at least some of your self-prescribed comments…[quote]Do yourself a favor and read a little more… I suggest starting…to practice critical thinking skills.[/quote]
============================== “Military men are just dumb, stupid, animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy.”
– Henry Kissinger, quoted in Kiss the Boys Goodbye: How the United States Betrayed Its Own POW’s in Vietnam.
Chickenhawk n. A person enthusiastic about war, provided someone else fights it; particularly when that enthusiasm is undimmed by personal experience with war; most emphatically when that lack of experience came in spite of ample opportunity in that person’s youth.
[quote=“Lt. Col. Shelton F. Lankford, U.S. Marine Corps (ret)”][i]"This isn’t about party, it isn’t about Bush Bashing. It’s about our country, our constitution, and our future… Your countrymen have been murdered and the more you delve into it the more it looks as though they were murdered by our government, who used it as an excuse to murder other people thousands of miles away.
If you ridicule others who have sincere doubts and who know factual information that directly contradicts the official report and who want explanations from those who hold the keys to our government, and have motive, means, and opportunity to pull off a 9/11, but you are too lazy or fearful, or … to check into the facts yourself, what does that make you? Scholars for 9/11 truth have developed reams of scientific data. Michael Ruppert published an exhaustive account of the case from the viewpoint of a trained investigator. David Ray Griffin provides a context for the unanswered or badly answered questions that should nag at anyone who pretends to love this country. Are you afraid that you will learn the truth and you can’t handle it? …
Do a little research. Google is a wonderful tool.
What does it all add up to? The Commission was, as was the Warren Commission before it, a dog and pony show … "[/i]
– Lt. Col. Shelton F. Lankford, U.S. Marine Corps (ret), Retired U.S. Marine Corps fighter pilot with over 300 combat missions flown. 21-year Marine Corps career.[/quote]
But hold on. Weren’t these Kennedy blokes part of a Democrat administration? No! This can’t be! The dems are therefore as bent and twisted as the republicans. America is DOOMED! Oh wait, no its not. The rest of the world is though.
j.scholl, consider that up until now, no one has drawn factually irrefutable lines that connect your “Considered” points to any conspiracy. Or am I missing an impeachment somewhere? Well exceptthe one in Vermont…
So, an American President is going out of his way to ensure that America has oil in the future, and happens to be making his friends’ companies and stockholders rich at the same time. I wish he were my friend and I wish I’d invested in Halliburton.
The DHS is working on a plan for Martial Law? Hugo Chavez is funding and arming paramilitary gangs.
What just astonishes me is that all this talk about how Bush has wiped his butt with the Consitution, one only has to look to Hugo Chavez to see what this would REALLY be like. How do you like your TV?
Your points are an interesting read, and liberal paranoids might shake in their boots in fear or rage, but I’ll save my energy.
And yes, I used to read David Icke. He made me laff. Now I don’t have to read him. I get all his stuff here.
Even if all these conspiracy theories are true, so what? All it proves is that America is the most powerful nation in the world and that it can do as it pleases. If you didn’t already believe it does what it pleases and has been doing so ever since it was strong enough to do so, then you’re just hopelessly naiive.
Welcome to the world. Vote for a different party next time if you’re American, safe in the knowledge that the men in grey suits will continue to do exactly as they please and there’s not a damn thing you can do about it, other than write to your newspapers and bulletin boards.
You see, these people making the real decisions? They know about you and all like you, and they know exactly how little power you have to make changes. Because they engineered it that way.
That’s why you conspiracy nuts are so entertaining. “OMG! A conspiracy! OMG!” Yeah? So fucking what? Like you actually really and truly believe that politics is what those elected people do? Are you CRAZY?
sandman and jdsmith - I appreciate parts of both of your points. I for one certainly do NOT place any hope in dems’ hands. But did the military complex obtain public support to invade Cuba? No, so kudos for that, right? Operation Northwoods was NOT successful.
Is it clear that Bush/Cheney/PNAC were behind 9/11? No. I think if it was, headlines across every major newspaper in the world would incite strikes against American interests everywhere. Lets consider what IS CLEAR> the propensity to stage a false terror strike internally for a political agenda (and for greed). This is undeniable.
Operation Northwoods, just as Phoenix, Tonkin, Condor, and others prove this point. If I weren’t American, the modern enemy of peace and justice #1 would be easy to name. But I am, and its the rogue anti-Constitutional pro-Imperialist players and powers I have to conclude as the real (domestic) enemy.
Forumosa is a convenient sounding board, and sandman, I remember your advice regarding kookiness… ‘see, see, see, SEEEE!’. So my postings have thinned, but my activism hasn’t dimmed, because when my children are old enough to serve, I want them to be proud to serve and protect the America that the world used to admire (if they choose to that is). If I can help effect change, I’ll try.
jdsmith…
which don’t you call a conspiracy… Operation Northwoods or 9/11?
impeachment? Cheney should be first… see related thread please.
liberal? NO. Anti-Tyranny Anti-Lies Anti-Violence is not liberal. Its Pro-Decency, no matter which culture you hold dear.
which don’t you call a conspiracy… Operation Northwoods or 9/11?[/quote]
Uhm, neither? Northwoods was never activated. And last I knew, according to Southpark, 911 was caused by a “Bunch of pissed off Arabs.”
Bring it. I have ALWAYS stated no one is above da law. Just stop TALKING about it! Impeach or STFU.
World politics has been a secret from most of the peoples of the world for most of history. I hate to break it to you and the other pro-decency people out there, but uh, it’s always been like this.
Somebody WILL win. By hook or by crook. Anti-tyranny? Just in your own nation right? North Korean tyranny is ok, right? Or betetr yet, Meester Chavez’s new farmland?
Anti-lies. Ok, how about anti-white lie?
“Everything’s gonna be allllll right!”
Crusty the Clown
Anti-violence. Sure, and we need MORE anti-violence in Darfur!
Anyway, like I said to Vay this AM, “It’s all good!”
In spite of the reality that this assertion is absolutely impossible to verify empirically, given the past 6 years, I think it’s a safe assumption that if the Bush administration had been in power then, these plans would’ve been carried out and that war would’ve mostly likely occurred.[/quote]
never mind that, how about the missile crisis lol, i’m thinking “mission accomplished” from the middle of a smoking crater