US presidential and VP debates

Politics International Politics
21

Someone is not happy that Barry lied about his position in the 1st debate…

Kissinger Says Obama Wrong on Kissingers’ Position in Debate Tonight

and:

Kissinger Unhappy About Obama
"Henry Kissinger believes Barack Obama misstated his views on diplomacy with US adversaries and is not happy about being mischaracterized. He says: “Senator McCain is right. I would not recommend the next President of the United States engage in talks with Iran at the Presidential level. My views on this issue are entirely compatible with the views of my friend Senator John McCain. We do not agree on everything, but we do agree that any negotiations with Iran must be geared to reality.”

Is this part of Obamas’ ‘Change’…? :laughing:

22

Another one tells the Kissinger story:

Fact Check: Kissinger Defends McCain’s Iran Stance

Good overview of Kissinger and his stance at the link.

23

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]Obama:" I’ve got a bracelet too."

Yeah Obama, you got it in February right? And you still don’t know the name of the Soldier on it? Your handlers score 0 on prepping you for this moment.

“Wearing the bracelet but not knowing the man’s name means he never actually thought about the man at all. Never once contemplated the meaning of the man’s sacrifice, but is only using the tragedy of the soldier’s passing to further his own political ambitions.”

And everybody saw you Obama.

Obama performed as expected. McCain did better than expected.[/quote]

I guess I heard it a little differently than you did. Then again, I guess you heard McCain walloping Obama, and that’s not what I heard either. I thought it was an average to good showing for both candidates.

WRT the bracelet, I thought Obama started to say, I got this bracelet from Joe Blow", but he quickly corrected himself and said, “from the Mother of Jo Blow.” Maybe I’m wrong, but at first it seemed to me that he had forgotten the soldier’s name, but I later believed that he made a slip and almost said that he’d gotten it from the dead soldier himself. In other words, I thought he made a save, but I’m honestly unsure. If he stumbled on the name or wanted to show the bracelet, to show he was still wearing it, OK. If he forgot the name, that’s a shame.

Can anyone else clarify? If you listen to the clips on youtube/whatever, pay attention to that part; I certainly got the impression he had a name to go with the bracelet.

24

I think it’s pretty hard for people who already have strong opinions on the race to be objective about something like this debate. I watched it, consciously trying hard to be objective about it, and while I found myself agreeing with Obama’s positions and arguments, and thinking he held his own against a more experienced politician (and to such an extent that if I weren’t trying hard to be objective I might be tempted to claim a victory for the Dems, a party on whose side I now find myself tending to vote despite not being a Democrat by either self-identification or registration), I came away with the conclusion that it was not a clear victory for either side. I doubt that anyone who already had a strong opinion would be swayed otherwise in this debate. The question really is what effect it will have on the truly unbiased and undecided. And I think that that is really and truly up in the air.

25

There was an article I was reading earlier which was saying both the candidates were operating within their comfort zones, that both were spouting common rhetoric used on their campaign trails and perhaps for many Americans it was the first time they had had a chance to hear lines that they have both become very familiar with. I agree.

In some areas like the economy, this I dont feel either of the candidates went beyond the obvious such as stating the need for a required oversight for any bail out package and need for reform. Lets hope Sarah Palin has a better rehearsed comment than the nonsense she was spouting a couple of days back for the vice presidents debate, poor girl made a pigs ear out of that interview.

 But in light of the fact we were witnessing the pre packaged , in advance prepared answers to questions. It was McCain more often that would try to state Obama's position, to which you could hear, "thats not true", over and over. Having someone in your face, telling you your campaign sound bites are lies, must have been grating for McCain, he even left pauses necessary for cheers. However, in this audience, this left moments of pure silence, instead of the rapturous  applause he is used to.
26

Above was pointed out one alleged mis-statement from Obama. Here are 10 new ones from McCain.

[quote]Washington Post Fact Checker blog: McCain “Seriously Misstated” Lebanon Vote. “McCain seriously misstated his vote concerning the marines in Lebanon. He said that when he went into Congress in 1983, he voted against deploying them in Beirut. The Marines went in Lebanon in 1982, before McCain came to Congress. The vote came up a year into their deployment, when the Marines had already suffered 54 casualties. What McCain voted against was a measure to invoke the War Powers Act and to authorize the deployment of U.S. Marines in Lebanon for an additional 18 months. The measure passed 270-161, with 26 other Republicans (including McCain) and 134 Democrats voting against it.” [Washington Post Fact Checker blog, 9/26/08: voices.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/]

FactCheck.org: McCain Voted for $3 million to study the DNA of bears. “We’ve heard that one before. McCain’s been playing it for laughs since 2003. The study in question was done by the U.S. Geological Survey, and it relied in part on federal appropriations. Readers (and politicians) may disagree on whether a noninvasive study of grizzly bear population and habitat is a waste of money. McCain clearly thinks it is – but on the other hand, he never moved to get rid of the earmark. In fact, he voted for the bill that made appropriations for the study. He did propose some changes to the bill, but none that nixed the bear funding.” [Fact Check.Org, 9/26/08]

Washington Post: McCain Repeats Lie That Obama Voted To Raise Taxes on Anyone Making More Than $42,000. “John McCain claimed that Obama voted in the Senate to raise taxes on anyone making more than $42,000 a year. This is misleading on several levels. The vote that McCain is talking about was a non-binding resolution on the budget that envisioned letting the Bush tax cuts to expire, as scheduled, in 2011. But these budget resolutions come up every year, and do not represent a vote for higher taxes in future years. In fact, Obama has said that he will continue the Bush tax cuts for middle and low-income taxpayers. He says that he will cut taxes for all but the wealthiest tax-payers.” [Washington Post Fact Checker blog, 9/26/08: voices.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/]

AP: McCain Repeats Troop Funding Lie. MCCAIN: McCain said Obama voted to cut off money for the troops in Iraq. THE FACTS: Despite opposing the war, Obama has, with one exception, voted for Iraq troop financing. In 2007, he voted against a troop funding bill because it did not contain language calling for a troop withdrawal. The Illinois senator backed another bill that had such language - and money for the troops." [AP, 9/26/08: hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/P/ … TE=DEFAULT]

ABC: McCain Falsely Invokes Eisenhower Letters. “Calling on President Eisenhower to deliver a lesson about accountability, Sen. John McCain invoked two letters authored by the 34th president the night before the Normandy invasion during Friday’s presidential debate. One letter, McCain said, was authored in the event that the D-Day invasion was a success and the other, a resignation, in the event it was a failure. According to the National Archives, late on the afternoon of June 5, 1944, Eisenhower scribbled a note intended for release accepting responsibility for the decision to launch the invasion and taking full blame in the event the effort to create a beachhead on the Normandy coast failed. In the letter, Eisenhower takes responsibility but makes no mention of resignation.” [ABC News, 9/26/08: blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar … -mcca.html]

Boston Globe: McCain Repeats False Claim on Funding For Troops. “McCain: ‘And Senator Obama, who after promising not to vote to cut off funds for the troops, did the incredible thing of voting to cut off the funds for the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.’ Fact Check: Obama did vote against a 2007 spending bill that did not include language calling for withdrawing troops from Iraq, but then voted for the version that did. That version was vetoed by President Bush, though McCain does not say Bush cut off funding for the troops. Overall, Obama voted yes on at least 10 other war funding bills prior to the single no vote.” [Boston Globe, 9/26/08: boston.com/news/politics/pol … asses.html]

Boston Globe: McCain Lied About Alternate Fuel Votes. “McCain: ‘I voted for alternate fuel all my time. … No one can be opposed to alternate energy, no one.’ Fact Check: In his 26 years in Congress, McCain has voted against several bills and amendments calling for new investments in renewable energy, according to official Senate records. In March 2002, for example, McCain voted against an amendment to require utilities to generate 10 percent of electricity from renewable energy facilities by 2020.” [Boston Globe, 9/26/08: boston.com/news/politics/pol … asses.html]

AP: McCain Leaves Out Key Vote on 2005 Energy Bill. MCCAIN: “We had an energy bill before the United States Senate. It was festooned with Christmas tree ornaments. It had all kinds of breaks for the oil companies, I mean, billions of dollars worth. I voted against it; Senator Obama voted for it.” THE FACTS: Obama did vote for a 2005 energy bill supported by President Bush that included billions in subsidies for oil and natural gas production. McCain opposed the bill on grounds it included unnecessary tax breaks for the oil industry. Obama voted to strip the legislation of the oil and gas industry tax breaks. When that failed, he voted for the overall measure. Obama has said he supported the legislation because it provided money for renewable energy. [AP, 9/26/08: hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/P/ … TE=DEFAULT]

AP: McCain Distorts on His Call to Fire SEC Chairman. MCCAIN: “I’ve been criticized because I called for the resignation of the chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission.” THE FACT: McCain did eventually call for the resignation of SEC Chairman Christopher Cox. But he first said that if he were president he would fire him, a step a president cannot take with the head of an independent regulatory agency. This is what McCain said on Sept. 18 during a rally in Iowa: “The chairman of the SEC serves at the appointment of the president and, in my view, has betrayed the public’s trust. If I were president today, I would fire him.” [AP, 9/26/08: hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/P/ … TE=DEFAULT]

Washington Post: McCain Overstates Iraq Opposition. John McCain correctly asserted that in 2003 he began to question the Iraq war strategy, which is correct. In November 2003, he criticized the Bush administration’s conduct of the Iraq war, saying the United States should send at least 15,000 more troops or risk “the most serious American defeat on the global stage since Vietnam.” But he has also made later, more rosy pronouncements. After visiting the Shorja market in Baghdad in April 2007, where he was protected by more than 100 soldiers, McCain said, “Things are getting better in Iraq, and I am pleased with the progress that has been made.” Privately, according to a recent book by Bob Woodward, he was more critical, telling Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, “We may be about to lose the second war in my lifetime.” [Washington Post Fact Checker blog, 9/26/08: voices.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/] [/quote]

27

What CNN. We know what he got done. Z-I-P.[/quote]

I know he got z-i-p done, I just wonder why Obama would ignore such an obvious opportunity to highlight McCain’s political gesturing durring what is being talked of as a dire impending doom sorta thing for the country. I really want to like McCain. I’m trying hard to like him so there is an alternative to Obama, who, naturally, I also don’t really like. But his grandstanding and threatening not to show up for the debates make me feel flu-like. I never like any polititions, but damyum! I don’t know why we’re even bothering with any of this. If the American public can’t pay attention for any longer than a soundbite, and obviously can’t think for themselves, then they should just do what-ever-the-hell-they-will and stop waisting the money on the charade.

28

I’m not American, so I’m not as deeply passionate about either candidate as many of you are; however, I do keep track of it all for the wonderful reality-show spectacle that it is. Let me just say that when it was clear back during the primaries that it would be Obama vs McCain, I really had no personal perference for either one.

I watched the debate live from the very beginning to almost the end. I felt that Obama started out stronger, but only slightly, while McCain seemed to ramble on a bit. McCain’s bit on a spending-freeze seemed to contrast well to what was up till then, fuzzy answers by both candidates on how they would curtain their spending. However, it looked to me as if that was an on-the-spot commitment rather than a previously well thought out policy, simply for the sake of differentiating himself at that moment. A tactical move, but not very convincing.

When things moved on to Iraq, I thought McCain did very well and spoke with both confidence and obvious experience. I also thought that Obama held his own, but his lack of foreign policy experience when contrasted against McCain was pretty clear. I thought Obama made a mistake of trying to use Kissinger’s words against McCain, who was quite credible in telling Obama that he has known Kissinger for 35 years and he is misrepresenting the words of the former Secretary of State. Obama also landed a few good sounds bites, hammering away at McCain in succession for being wrong on WMDs, welcomed as liberators, winning the war easily, and focussing on Iraq instead of Afghanistan. Obama’s basic stand, it seemed, was that while McCain was experienced, look what that experience brought the nation in terms of the war on terror. On the issue of sitting down with the enemy, McCain was able to make the audience laugh by mocking Obama’s position, a real feat since the audience had promised to remain silent throughout. Obama made a partial save by saying that he reserves the right as president to meet anyone at any time of his choosing. McCain made the mistake by saying that Obama voted to cut funding for the soldiers, which was quickly rebuked very effectively by Obama, making McCain look a bit petty.

Overall, I thought both candidates got their points across effectively. Despite Obama’s perceived foreign policy handicap going into the debate, he did quite well, not as well as McCain, but his positions seemed well thought out and well articulated. No knock-out punches though, more like a few tickles with a feather underneath the chin.

A tie, I say.

Now bring on the Veeps. Now THAT should be a fun debate.

29

What are these bracelets people are talking about? I gather that Americans have been wearing bracelets with the names of dead soldiers on them…? Or are these their actual dog tags or something?

30

I watched the debates and didn’t think either one did very well. I was surprised afterwards when almost every news organization declared Obama the winner. I guess that there are a lot of people who don’t follow politics as close as I do so they were swayed that he could keep up with McCain. As for the Kissinger point, of course there was a press release after the debate to say he backed McCain’s position because he’s an advisor but it has been shown and proven that he said the president should meet with the leaders of Iran.

and i think the bracelet mess you’ve been talking about is funny. Of course it was a rehearsed line from the Obama camp cause they knew McCain would bring it up as he does at almost each stop which dilutes it and the story is starting to become his new POW line. And again Mr. Cowboy, you are wrong about the bracelet.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-ap-wi-obama-bracelet,0,6413408.story
or
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/09/bracelet-wars.html

31

Heads up! The VP debate begins in a couple minutes!

32

Palin put to the test in 1 minute.

I decided to stay home from work this morning after all for this. :slight_smile:

33

Oh, I forgot, here’s your bingo card.

palinbingo.com/

Good luck.

34

Biden off to a blazing good start about the economy and the bail out plan.

Palin mentions soccer mom in the first sentence, then shaky from there, mostly just talking about how McCain raised warning bells. Better than her prior grab-bag response but clearly a scripted response not based in genuine understanding and committment. John McCain said X, John McCain said Y, blah, blah. As governor I had a track record of reform. :roflmao:

35

She’s a liar and a bitch too. Attack, attack, attack, smear, lie, smear.

I flat out don’t believe her when she accused Obama of trying to raise taxes on those making $42,000/yr; I do believe Biden when he responded that her allegation was false, she mischaracterized that Bill and McCain also voted in favor of it.

She talks about a $5,000 tax credit. Whoopee do. McCain talks about not raising taxes on anyone earning less than $250,000. Biden appears infinitely more knowledgeable and credible. “And, you know how they’re coming up with the $5K,” asks Biden. By taxing people and dropping coverage on thousands. “I call that the ultimate bridge to nowhere,” he concluded. [audience laughs] :bravo:

Biden very credible on McCain’s $4B tax cuts for oil companies. Paliin, we have John McCain to thank for this, we have John McCain to thank for that. Whatever. She’s just uttering empty words. Biden’s definitely kicking her butt. She’s just a kid; he’s an extremely experienced professional.

36

Climate change.

Palin mentions cyclical changes, but says I don’t want to argue about the cause; we need to fix the problem, need to become energy independent, conserving petroleum products and hydrocarbons. … :roflmao:

Another grabbag BS response.

Biden good retort. It’s made by man. We MUST look at the cause. Without looking at the cause you can’t find a solution. Clean coal technology in China, etc. We should look into that. John McCain drill, drill, drill.

Palin. McCain says drill, drill, drill because that’s what the people want. It is safe to drill and we need to do more of that.

Both support capping carbon emissions.

Biden: McCain voted 20 times against supporting alternative energy.

37

Same sex marriage.

Biden: Don’t support gay marriage, but homosexuals should be entitled to completely, absolutely identical benefits.

Palin: not if it leads to redefining the traditional definition of marriage as one man and one woman. I am tolerant and have diverse friends and family (reallly???). One man, one woman, period. Moderator asks her to clarify whether she supports EQUAL rights; she weasels out and says, like Biden I oppose gay marriage.

38

That’s quite the public service you’re providing here, MT – a nice, balanced live commentary on the debate for those not able to watch it. :laughing: (I also didn’t think it was possible to find someone who hated Palin more than Andrew Sullivan – but I think you may have him beat, MT :wink: )

Personally, I think Sullivan sums up the debate up to now fairly well in his live blog :

[quote]Her climate change answer was bewildering. But that seems to me to be her strategy: just channel a barrage of rhetoric and bar any real follow-up. Ifill seems unable, perhaps because of the rules, to challenge her in any serious way. Biden is stylistically awful and substantively dull. Palin has very little substance but is killing him stylistically. And Biden sounds very liberal. He’s throwing this debate away so far.

[/quote]

[color=#FF0000]EDIT: Poor Andrew is still hyperventilating at the blown opportunity—[/color]

39

I guess he’s been warned off appearing too aggressive in his response to her mad rhetorical rambling.

If the votes were won via substance, it should be Bidden, but I’m far less confident of the American voting public’s view on this.

HG

40

Exit from Iraq

Palin: your plan is a white flag of surrender. We plan to exit when the Iraqi’s are ready for us to leave and the end is in sight. You said Obama’s not ready to be Commander in Chief. Obama voted to cut off funding for the troops.

Biden: McCain voted to cut off funding. He voted to cut it off because the Amendment had a timeline for withdrawal and he didn’t like that. I love McCain, but he’s been dead wrong.

Iran/Pakistan

Which is bigger threat: nuclear Iran or unstable Paki?

Biden: both are extremely dangerous. Paki already has nukes. Problem with McCain’s strategy is he keeps saying the problems in IRaq. It’s not. We need to support democracy in Pakistan, building schools there to compete for hearts and minds.

Palin: both extremely dangerous. Who said Iraq is the heart of the danger? General Petraeous and Al Qaeda and I would believe them. :laughing: Iran, N Korea, Cuba (axis of evil?): Obama would meet with them without precondition. Downright dangerous.

Moderator: Kissinger and 4 other former Secretaries of State favor engagement, what do you say?

Palin: I respect Kissinger, but those who would seek to destroy what we stand for cannot be sat down and spoken with, blah, blah, blah.

Biden: McCain said 5 weeks ago he wouldn’t even sit down with the govt of Spain.

EDIT: Hobbes, I don’t know what Sullivan’s been smoking but if he thinks Palin’s winning he’s nuts. Wait for the polls/news afterwards. It’s definitely Biden.