USA has 5% of the worlds population and 25% of its prisoners

Ha ha ha, referring to a White House anti-drug website for accurate info on drugs. :roflmao:

[quote]Background

The United States is relying heavily on a criminal justice response to drug use and drug offenders, and the number of marijuana arrests has increased. In May, the Sentencing Project reported that marijuana arrests accounted for 82 percent of the new drug abuse violations from 1990 to 2002. In June, Harvard economist Jeffrey A. Miron reported that law enforcement, judicial and corrections responses to marijuana represented $5.1 billion in spending.

The latest figures from the Justice Department show that nearly half of the 1.5 million drug arrests were for marijuana. However, leading national indicators of marijuana use rates show little relationship between increased arrests of drug users and drug use. . .

Findings

  1. The United States is spending nearly 300 times what it did 35 years ago on drug control. Drug control spending rose from $65 million in 1969 to $19 billion in 2003

  2. While drug control spending has increased, marijuana use remains relatively unchanged

  3. Increasing or decreasing arrest rates has had little impact on marijuana use

  4. In 7 out of 10 states over half of the drug arrests were for marijuana offenses. . . .[/quote]
    justicepolicy.org/downloads/ … xecsum.pdf

[quote] An estimated 400,000 people – almost one-quarter of the total incarcerated population in the U.S. – are confined in local jails and state and federal prisons on drug charges. . .

Between 1980 and 1997, the number of annual drug arrests tripled to a high of 1,584,000. . . .

The estimated time served by drug offenders in state prisons increased a full year between 1987 and 1996; federal drug sentences doubled. . .

In 1980, drug offenders comprised only six percent of state prison populations. By 1998, they constituted 21 percent. In federal prisons, drug offenders now comprise 59 percent of all inmates, whereas they represented only a quarter of federal inmates in 1980.

Available research indicates that most incarcerated drug offenders are bit players in the drug trade . . . Three quarters of the drug offenders in state prisons in 1997 had no prior convictions for violent crimes; one third had prior sentences limited to drug offenses. In 1991, fourteen percent of the drug offenders in state prisons had no prior sentence. . .[/quote]
hrw.org/reports/2000/usa/Rcedrg00-03.htm

AND HERE’S PERHAPS THE BEST REPORT AVAILABLE on arrests/imprisonment for marijuana in the US:

[quote] This report analyzes multiple sources of data for the period 1990–2002 from each of the critical points in the criminal justice system, from arrest through court processing and into the correctional system. . . The study found that since 1990, the primary focus of the war on drugs has shifted to low-level marijuana offenses. During the study period, 82% of the increase in drug arrests nationally (450,000) was for marijuana offenses, and virtually all of that increase was in possession offenses. Of the nearly 700,000 arrests in 2002, 88% were for possession.

Key findings include:

:black_small_square: Of the 450,000 increase in drug arrests during the period 1990–2002, 82% of the growth was for marijuana, and 79% was for marijuana possession alone;

:black_small_square: Marijuana arrests now constitute nearly half (45%) of the 1.5 million drug arrests annually;

:black_small_square: Few marijuana arrests are for serious offending: of the 734,000 marijuana arrests in 2000, only 41,000 (6%) resulted in a felony conviction;

:black_small_square: Marijuana arrests increased by 113% between 1990 and 2002, while overall arrests decreased by 3%;

:black_small_square: New York City experienced an 882% growth in marijuana arrests, including an increase of 2,461% for possession offenses;

:black_small_square: African Americans are disproportionately affected by marijuana arrests, representing 14% of marijuana users in the general population, but 30% of arrests;

:black_small_square: One-third of persons convicted for a marijuana felony in state court are sentenced to prison;

:black_small_square: One in four persons in prison for a marijuana offense – an estimated 6,600 persons – can be classified as a low-level offender;

:black_small_square: An estimated $4 billion is spent annually on the arrest, prosecution and incarceration of marijuana offenders.

The findings in this report call for a national discussion regarding the zealous prosecution of marijuana use and its consequences for allocation of criminal justice resources and public safety. Law enforcement has focused disproportionately on low-level possession charges as a result of the nation’s lack of a thoughtful strategy about how best to address the consequences of marijuana use. . . [/quote]
harmreductionjournal.com/content/3/1/6

Here are a couple of charts from the above report, showing the dramatic increase in arrests for mere marijuana possession and the great percentage that makes up of all drug arrests:

[quote]Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha … Ralphy is back to old form…find criticism about the US and then turn it around and insult everybody from Europe and the UK because of said criticism.

Are you going to actually contribute to the topic or are you just going to go on a tangent and rag on about Europe because you don’t agree with the topic at hand or find it hard to swallow a comment form another poster about the perceived state of affairs in your country?

Grow up, Ralphy.[/quote]

I was responding directly to another poster’s post. He said America is dead and I disagreed with that. How is that not being able to take criticism? You disagree with my assertion that Europe/UK is not a dying continent you’re welcome to reply.

Regarding penis envy- 3-4 posters write daily rants regarding America ranging from military, education to social ills. The only reason I can come up with why they do this is they really do have penis envy.

Hmmm…your stats tell me that dope smokers are easy to catch…:cop:

Thanks for the invitaion:

Has it not occured to you that many European countries and most certainly the UK are increasing in population size due to immigration - the UK is certainly overcrowded. Even though the (original; English white) population is aging, our workforce, especially at blue collar level, has a high amount of immigrant labour, especially from places like Poland and Eastern Europe. UK populaion is increasing, just like that of the USA’s.

Getting your facts straight and engaging in a little research before you post often prevents one from looking like a twerp.

[quote]Regarding penis envy- 3-4 posters write daily rants regarding America ranging from military, education to social ills. The only reason I can come up with why they do this is they really do have penis envy.
[/quote]

Which ones? I don’t see any in this thread.

Americans have penii? You’re kidding, right? :laughing:

Americans have penii? You’re kidding, right? :laughing:[/quote]

That’s right, they’re mostly just slashed up remnants of the original plan.

HG

Edit: Surely I’m not the only on that has noticed that those countries with a propensity to sever the protective sheath of their male offspring’s manhood are also the ones most willing to kill. Israelis, Muslims, Americans, please, stop brutalising your young boys, let’s have some peace, man!

Thanks for the invitaion:

Has it not occured to you that many European countries and most certainly the UK are increasing in population size due to immigration - the UK is certainly overcrowded. Even though the (original; English white) population is aging, our workforce, especially at blue collar level, has a high amount of immigrant labour, especially from places like Poland and Eastern Europe. UK populaion is increasing, just like that of the USA’s.

Getting your facts straight and engaging in a little research before you post often prevents one from looking like a twerp.

[quote]Regarding penis envy- 3-4 posters write daily rants regarding America ranging from military, education to social ills. The only reason I can come up with why they do this is they really do have penis envy.
[/quote]

Which ones? I don’t see any in this thread.[/quote]

Yuh. Those immigrants are integrating really well aren’t they? Despite the influx of immigrants, Europe is still ageing. Go read The Economist in occasion.

Entire World - Prison Population Rates
per 100,000 of the national population

1 United States of America 738
2 Russian Federation 611
3 St. Kitts and Nevis 547
4 Virgin Islands (USA) 521
5 Turkmenistan c.489
6 Belize 487
6 Cuba c.487
8 Palau 478
9 Virgin Islands (United Kingdom) 464
10 Bermuda (UK) 463
11 Bahamas 462
12 Cayman Islands (United Kingdom) 453
13 American Samoa (USA) 446
14 Belarus 426
15 Dominica 419
16 Barbados 367
17 Netherlands Antilles (Netherlands) 364
17 Panama 364
19 Puerto Rico (USA) 356
19 Suriname 356
19 Ukraine 356
22 Singapore 350
23 Botswana 348
24 Maldives 343
25 Kazakhstan 340
26 South Africa 335
27 Estonia 333
28 Aruba (Netherlands) 324
29 French Guiana/Guyane (France) 315
30 St Vincent and the Grenadines 312
31 St Lucia 303
32 Trinidad and Tobago 296
33 Guam (USA) 293
34 Kyrgyzstan 292
34 Latvia 292
36 United Arab Emirates 288
37 Georgia 276
38 Mongolia 269
39 Namibia 267
40 Grenada 265
41 Tunisia c.263
42 Taiwan 259
43 Thailand 256
44 Antigua and Barbuda 255
45 Swaziland 249
46 Moldova (Republic of) 247
47 Chile 240
47 Lithuania 240
49 Seychelles 239
50 Poland 230
51 Azerbaijan 219
52 Iran 214
53 Israel 209
54 Libya 207
55 Mauritius 205
56 Greenland (Denmark) 199
56 Guyana 199
56 Macau (China) 199
59 Mexico 196
60 Jersey (United Kingdom) 193
60 Uruguay 193
62 Brazil 191
62 Northern Mariana Islands (USA) 191
64 New Zealand 186
65 Czech Republic 185
66 Uzbekistan 184
67 Jamaica 182
68 Costa Rica 181
69 Cape Verde (Cabo Verde) 178
70 Guernsey (United Kingdom) 176
71 Morocco 175
72 El Salvador 174
73 Hong Kong (China) 168
73 Lebanon 168
75 Luxembourg 167
76 Romania 164
76 Tajikistan 164
78 Martinique (France) 163
79 Honduras 161
80 Guadeloupe (France) 158
80 Slovakia 158
82 Hungary 156
82 Lesotho 156
84 Rwanda 152
85 Bulgaria 148
85 United Kingdom: England & Wales 148
87 Spain 145
88 Dominican Republic 143
89 Malaysia 141
90 Argentina 140
90 Brunei Darussalam 140
92 United Kingdom: Scotland 139
92 Zimbabwe 139
94 Gibraltar (United Kingdom) 136
95 Colombia 134
96 French Polynesia (France) 132
96 Saudi Arabia 132
98 Fiji 131
98 New Caledonia (France) 131
100 Kenya 130
100 Kuwait 130
102 Netherlands 128
103 Algeria 127
104 Australia 126
104 Cook Islands (New Zealand) 126
104 Peru 126
107 Cameroon 125
108 Samoa (formerly Western Samoa) 123
109 Portugal 121
110 Myanmar (formerly Burma) c.120
110 Reunion (France) 120
110 Zambia 120
113 China 118
114 Sri Lanka 114
114 Tonga 114
116 Tanzania 113
117 Albania 111
118 Central African Republic 110
119 Isle of Man (United Kingdom) 109
120 Montenegro 108
120 Philippines 108
122 Canada 107
122 Madagascar 107
124 Burundi 106
125 Austria 105
125 Vietnam 105
127 Italy 104
127 Jordan 104
127 Serbia 104
130 Macedonia (former Yugoslav Republic of) 99
131 Nicaragua 98
132 Republic of (South) Korea 97
133 Monaco 96
134 Bahrain 95
134 Germany 95
134 Uganda 95
137 Ecuador 93
138 Ethiopia c.92
139 Belgium 91
139 Turkey 91
141 Andorra 90
141 Greece 90
143 Armenia 89
144 Egypt 87
145 Malta 86
145 Paraguay 86
147 France 85
148 United Kingdom: Northern Ireland 84
149 Bolivia 83
149 Switzerland 83
149 Yemen 83
152 Sao Tome e Principe 82
152 Sweden 82
154 Croatia 81
154 Oman 81
156 Micronesia, Federated States of 79
157 Denmark 77
158 Cyprus 76
159 Benin 75
159 Finland 75
161 Malawi 74
161 Venezuela 74
163 Marshall Islands 73
164 Ireland, Republic of 72
164 Kiribati 72
166 Laos 69
166 Papua New Guinea 69
168 Bosnia and Herzegovina: Republika Srpska 68
169 Norway 66
170 Slovenia 65
170 Togo 65
170 Vanuatu 65
173 Serbia and Montenegro: Kosovo/Kosova 63
174 Japan 62
174 Solomon Islands 62
176 Djibouti 61
177 Iraq c.60
177 Tuvalu 60
179 Bosnia and Herzegovina: Federation 59
180 Cambodia 58
180 Syria 58
182 Democratic Republic of Congo (formerly Zaire) c.57
182 Guatemala 57
182 Mayotte (France) 57
182 Pakistan 57
186 Ghana 55
186 Qatar 55
188 Senegal 54
189 Mozambique 51
190 Bangladesh 50
191 Cote d’Ivoire 49
192 Niger 46
193 Indonesia 45
194 Angola 44
195 Haiti 43
196 Timor-Leste (formerly East Timor) 41
197 Iceland 40
198 Congo (Brazzaville) 38
199 Republic of Guinea 37
200 Sudan c.36
201 Chad 35
202 Mali 33
203 Gambia 32
203 Sierra Leone c.32
205 Comoros c.30
205 India 30
205 Nigeria 30
208 Liechtenstein 29
209 Mauritania 26
209 Nepal 26
211 Burkina Faso 23
211 Nauru 23
213 Faeroe Islands (Denmark) 15

Send comments or questions to icps@kcl.ac.uk

Elegua, integration isn’t the issue here. The fact is that the United Kingdom has at the moment an influx of migrant workers - like the US at present - which was Ralpy’s point.

Also, having just had a look at various population pyramids indicating statistics for both the UK and the US, it shows both countries have a current decline of new births except for the last 3 - 5 years, which shows that the number of newborns for both countries is now increasing (as you would have thought in the UK due to all those single, teenage pregnant girls hanging around the shopping centre every day).

Both the UK and US population pyramids look pretty much the same (except our pyramid looks better and is more well presented :smiling_imp: )

Knew we could count on you for your usual level of insight.
Sorry we interrupted your wank session.
Try using your left hand for a change.

[quote]176 Djibouti 61
177 Iraq c.60
177 Tuvalu 60
179 Bosnia and Herzegovina: Federation 59
180 Cambodia 58
180 Syria 58
182 Democratic Republic of Congo (formerly Zaire) c.57
182 Guatemala 57
182 Mayotte (France) 57
182 Pakistan 57
186 Ghana 55
186 Qatar 55
188 Senegal 54
189 Mozambique 51
190 Bangladesh 50
191 Cote d’Ivoire 49
192 Niger 46
193 Indonesia 45
194 Angola 44
195 Haiti 43
196 Timor-Leste (formerly East Timor) 41
197 Iceland 40
198 Congo (Brazzaville) 38
199 Republic of Guinea 37
200 Sudan c.36
201 Chad 35
202 Mali 33
203 Gambia 32
203 Sierra Leone c.32
205 Comoros c.30
205 India 30
205 Nigeria 30
208 Liechtenstein 29
209 Mauritania 26
209 Nepal 26
211 Burkina Faso 23
211 Nauru 23
213 Faeroe Islands (Denmark) 15

[/quote]

Yep, all lovely places to be. I’d feel perfectly safe waltzing the [strike]streets[/strike] dirt paths in any of those wonderful advanced nations, with their long legacies of regards for human rights and rule of law. Except may Liechtenstein. You can’t trust those inbred Liechtensteiners, they’re a vicious lot. Thanks for posting that list. It goes to show that there really is a strong correlation between a low prison population rate and the quality of a country. We are all well aware of the excellence and impartiality of the Indonesian legal system - I mean, look at how they handled the miscreants responsible for the Bali bombings, a shining example of justice for all the world to emulate.

BTW, anybody else notice that most of the top 20 is made up of nations in or around the Caribbean? Gringo tourists getting busted trafficking, anyone?

Gee TC, last time I checked a lot more people read the Reuters news feed than the Washington Times reverend moon screed you and fred are the only 2 subscribers to…
:wanker:

Ah Toe Tag, but you have not given us any proof that the Washington Times articles are inaccurate have you? NO. Thanks for playing.

I guess I have followed this thread only sporadically but I have a few points.

  1. Are those in US prisons there because they broke the law? For the most part: YES.
  2. Were they given fair trials? Essentially yes.
  3. Is prison an effective way of dealing with crime? Given lower crime figures? I would say yes.
  4. Is prison an effective way or the most effective way of rehabilitating criminals? Perhaps, not but neither was the old arrest and release. Crime levels are lower in the US now because criminals are being put away.
  5. Is there a racist element in the exercise of arrest and jury trials? Not that I can tell. I have never seen anything conclusive to suggest that those arrested did not actually commit the crime. I do see differentials in terms of sentencing but these figures are often skewed for political reasons. The old canard that blacks are more likely to be on death row, for example, is actually not true.
  6. Is there a racial element? Yes, if you mean that there are higher numbers both overall and as a percentage of the population that are either Black or Hispanic.
  7. Is there a gender element? Yes, if you think that it is important that 94 percent of those in prison are men not women.
  8. Are prisoners suffering loss of right? Yes, if you consider widespread allegations of rape, intimidation and other abuse at the hands of other prisoners.
  9. Are US prisons inhuman? Can be but overall the record does not appear outrageously bad unless compared with Scandinavia and other “enlightened” societies, but these figures are changing too as their societies become less homogenous and underclasses develop most prominently among immigrants (usually male) from West Africa, North Africa and parts of the Middle East.
  10. Are most of the prisoners there for drug related offenses, and unfairly so? Not to my understanding. From what I understand (correct me if wrong) a certain amount of drug has to be found on the person to elevate them from a user to a dealer. Casual consumption is not going to lead to an arrest, might if found in a car (ditto for alcohol) but it will if the amount is sufficiently high to suggest dealing.

Anyway, just my thoughts. I hear the crime incarceration statistic raised frequently to berate the US but I have not seen any real sensible discussion of the subject on this forum. I believe that such a discussion is highly unlikely given the present mix of posters. There seems to be more of an axe to grind against the US rather than a genuine interest in understanding prison policy and rehabilitation efforts.

I believe you are wrong Fred Smith. It appears that the best way of dealing with law breakers is to colonize another country and send them there with long (sometimes lifetime) sentences of hard labour, as was done with Australia.

As seen from the statistics we’re no longer a bunch of criminals and for the most part more law abiding than American citizens!

True, but are the laws just? Not necessarily, as in the case of imprisonment for petty drug offenses or completely unreasonable sentences based on 3-strikes and other misguided policies.

Show me the lower crime figures and show me how they are the result of prison. No such evidence exists. Prison may be an effective way of dealing with some crimes (ie punishing scumbags, taking them off the streets, and providing victims with a sense of retribution), but it’s highly unlikely to rehabilitate or even deter anyone, and in many cases it’s a huge waste of money, an inhumane and barbarous act and actually counterproductive, as shown by the studies I linked previously, about the govt spending billions of dollars per year arresting and imprisoning people for use of marijuana (which is less harmful than various legal substances), although all that effort has led to no reduction in its rate of use.

Stick with a subject you know something about Fred, because you obviously know nothing about the US criminal justice system. I challenge you to find any legitimate source that suggests prison is an effective way of rehabilitating criminals, or imprisonment has led to lower crime levels in the US. It ain’t and you won’t. It’s an effective way to punish people and take them off the streets, but it sure as hell ain’t rehabilitating them or the US wouldn’t be the worlds leading jailer, a country with clearly failed policies that have led to an insatiable demand for cell space.

Then you need to do more reading. Countless studies have showed that minorities are disproportionately detained, arrested, convicted, sentenced to longer sentences, etc.

Proof please?

Ok, so you admit prisoners rights are suffering some very serious violations of their rights. Your example is a good one, but there are lots of other ways in which their rights they should be entitled to – as human beings – are being violated by the lawmakers, judges, prosecutors, jailers and others.

I don’t know about most, but hundreds of thousands being arrested every year for drug related offenses seems pretty serious to me. Is prison, and the types of civil rights violations you refered to, the best way to deal with (a) a substance abuse addiction or (b) a choice to ingest a widely-used substance far less harmful than tobacco? Is it fair, to use your word?

From what I understand you’re completely wrong. People are thrown in jail all the time for possession of small amounts of marijuana for personal use.

You’re certainly not raising the discussion to any sensible level.

Either that, or your knee jerk reaction to any criticism of US laws or policies is to routinely condemn the critic as simply a US-hater with an axe to grind. Maybe you should try opening your mind, consider the possibility that maybe everything is not perfect in the US, maybe some laws and policies are less than ideal. Maybe you should read up on the subject before responding with your standard battery of neocon defensive retorts. :America:

The proof is that it is owned by a lunatic fringe cult leader, and that nobody reads it. Nobody takes it seriously. Nobody advertises in it, because even the feeble circulation figures they put forward are lies. Much less their “news”. But I can see why it appeals to you. You’re out on the fringe, and nobody takes you seriously either. Give it a rest, old man.

The Unification Church has spent over $1.7 billion in subsidies for the Times. Its clearly a joke, and its subsidized because its the very definition of bias. Nobody takes it seriously or reads it.

But tell us some more Fred. Its no more ridiculous than the other asinine positions you put forward. Thanks for playing.

Buzzzzzzz! Nope, wrong answer. That doesn’t prove shit. But, thanks for playing.

C’mon, if its such a rag, you ought to be able to provide at least some support for your ranting allegation.

You’re a real card, Toe Tag. Your education was worth every penny spent on it. Haha!

Well then, let’s see you post some proof. Shouldn’t be difficult, eh?

I believe the ball is in your court, Toe Tag. Care to post something with substance? Or, will you continue droning on and on with your unsupported allegations? :laughing:

The one stop internet source I use for sentencing issues is this guys blog
sentencing.typepad.com/sentencin … nd_policy/

I do not know the attorney blogger personally but I am quite familiar with the Californian situation and his discussions of California are very accurate and balanced so I presume his discussions of the US Federal side are equally accurate.

I would comment on this thread but I am not sure what this thread is about. I have attention deficient disorder so I am unable to read in detail the 50 or so lengthy posts some of which seem about American sentencing, some about the US prison system and some about the Washington Posts ownership and or accuracy.

One thing I would add is; the ROC Judicial Yuan is looking to do a major reform (or pretend to do a major reform, with Taiwan government agencies it is usually pretend, not actually do) of their criminal sentencing system. And towards that end they are looking to draft a set of advisory sentencing guidelines. And, and, what country are they looking to as a shining example of justice, fairness, wonderfulness and all other forms of Godly goodness in sentencing…America!!

I just laugh and tell them, “yeah, California has the Greatest Sentencing Show on Earth and Taiwan should copy it word for word”. I tell them that the formula is:
The higher percentage of the population you have in the slam = the more you love human rights.
And using this formula proves, by modern irrefutable mathematics, that California is the Human Rights Capitol of the Universe. The Republic of Tex-ass is in second place but they are trying.

Of course I am joking about that, but the rest of my post is true.

Judge Roy Bean Brian
Law Way West of the Pecos

So this judicial reform in Taiwan, will it include taking out the death penalty?

That seems odd to a nomn-lawyer like meself. I mean copying another judicial system that has death at its pinnacle but then lopping it off.

HG

HG,
That talk of abolishing the death penalty in Taiwan is complete bullshit. They never had any intention of doing so. That talk was almost entirely for “foreigner consumption”. Greasball (President Chen), the various DPP drones, the MOJ and the rest of the crew would mew that idea to please foreign ears and as a minor plank in the DPP human right platform.

What the future will hold is death for high profile, “nasty” murders. If you can keep your murder case off the front page of the paper, you will get “life” (i.e. 20 years, eligible for parole in ten). If it makes the paper—they will put a bullet in your fucking head after your three trials with a basically unskilled appointed defense attorney.

take care,
Brian