USA laws to be implemented in Taiwan! 121 questions for the Taiwan Government Concerning FATCA!

[quote=“dan2006”]JeffG, just curious, since so many Taiwanese are themselves dual citizens, will it be simply their voluntary disclosure that will allow the banks here to report them to the tax agency or is the tax agency going to send a list of names to Taiwan to get checked against the banks list of names here?

Because I highly doubt many of the local dual Taiwan US citizens are in compliance. It will cause a lot of blowback for the local government here once the locals accounts start getting scrutinized closely.[/quote]

:roflmao: Your guess is as good as mine! A great question. And I agree, I also highly doubt most of the local dual Taiwan/US citizens are in compliance. As a matter of fact, many are renouncing their US citizenship because of tax issues in the last year. From what I understand so far is that many local banks are simply not going to separate the information and data, because there is simply just too much data, which means ALL data, both US / other nationalities, and Taiwanese data will be sent to the US for them to sort out. One bank employee I spoke with today indicated that their bank had to invest or create a new program to automatically find all the US citizens with an account. It is estimated that at that particular bank less than 1% are US citizens. I highly doubt many locals will voluntarily disclouse their bank information even when they do find out about FATCA. The locals are in serious risk of being penalized if the IRS finds they are not in compliance, because many of those have NEVER paid US taxes. Again this is a situation of citizenship-based-taxation rather than residency-based-taxation.

It will be with great pleasure to see the government here start scrambling once that occurs, because I guarantee you they have no idea what they are signing, because if they did, they wouldn’t be in negotiations.

All of these questions that are being brought up in this thread are great! Because as you can see FATCA is raising more questions than answers!

Watch the dual national people squeal ‘unfair’, ‘how dare they’… instead of follow the contract of having a US passport. Watch assets switch into other family members ownership as per usual.

While all the while being secretly happy that big noses cant get dual citizenship here like they have. How dare those big noses, those foreigners sure have a sense of entitlement don’t they.

It’s going to be interesting to say the least. As usually we are at a total disadvantage here, but hopefully whenever the locals start getting wind of this, they will start protesting the government which would be a great benefit to us. But why there is not more talk in Taiwan on this is beyond me, unless it’s just simply because no one understand this law and of course no one knwos about this law. I really would like to get some things translated into Chinese and start dropping them in other user groups for comments.

Hi Everyone,

I understand the topic of FATCA has been very underserved here in Taiwan, and for many, clarity regarding FATCA is a rarity. I recently conducted an interview with a Senior Tax Manager at Ernst and Young regarding FATCA’s impact on Taiwan. It is available in 中文 and English on Youtube @ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPg0c1-w5ys and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4ObjCGPP64 .

For those of you interested in the politics and conflict of law interests regarding FATCA in Taiwan, then check out http://squawkonomics.com/2014/02/02/fatca-meets-its-match-banking-confidentiality-law-to-derail-fatca-in-taiwan/

We handle compliance and market entry/sustainment strategy requests in frontier markets. I think this information should be helpful to anyone who is confused and needing clarity on the impacts of FATCA in Taiwan, and I hope it’s helpful to the community!

-SQK

[quote=“sqktaipei”]Hi Everyone,

I understand the topic of FATCA has been very underserved here in Taiwan, and for many, clarity regarding FATCA is a rarity. I recently conducted an interview with a Senior Tax Manager at Ernst and Young regarding FATCA’s impact on Taiwan. It is available in 中文 and English on Youtube @ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPg0c1-w5ys and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4ObjCGPP64 .

For those of you interested in the politics and conflict of law interests regarding FATCA in Taiwan, then check out http://squawkonomics.com/2014/02/02/fatca-meets-its-match-banking-confidentiality-law-to-derail-fatca-in-taiwan/

We handle compliance and market entry/sustainment strategy requests in frontier markets. I think this information should be helpful to anyone who is confused and needing clarity on the impacts of FATCA in Taiwan, and I hope it’s helpful to the community!

-SQK[/quote]

thanks for this, but here is basically what I think… speculation, speculation, speculation. I so hope he is right though, but frankly it’s just his opinion, Taiwan has no bargaining chips. Unless the US congress votes to repeal FATCA, Ma is somehow kicked out of office, or something drastically changes, FATCA is going to be implemented in Taiwan just as soon as the US is ready to implement it, which will hopefully be never. Even my efforts to fight against the governmet here may be in vain. But raising awareness of this bad law is still critical, maybe just maybe the public can have some influence if more people get invovled.

Several years ago there was a mad cow disease issue in the US, but yet Ma still imported US beef. And in exchange the US government gave Taiwan visa free status. So what I think is that there is something else on the table for Taiwan if they sign onto FATCA. What I think it might be is more military hardware, I know Taiwan has beein vying for advanced weaponry from the US for quite some time. An advanced F-16 I think it was. Maybe this is what is on the table, I am not sure.

I’ve spoken to countless banks, tax attorneys, and CPAs in both Taiwan and the US, FATCA is not just being implemented in Taiwan as you know, Canada has even signed on even though there has been massive protests from the people. Ma has no backbone and will comply with whatever the US government wants from Taiwan. Remember the US still says it will back Taiwan in a war. Taiwan needs military not to fight with China, but to fight with countries like the Philippines because of invasion of fishing grounds and other things.

If Taiwan was really considering not to sign this law, why then, are banks already preparing for it, and spending thousands of dollars on tax attorneys, lawyers and new software? Banks have already forked over the bucks to get this thing going even though they don’t want it either. They hope the government can just handle the whole thing instead of having to sign indiviually IGAs with each bank, but it does not seem it going that way.

As far as privacy laws goes, if you see questions below from the list above regarding privacy, I am awaiting their answers, though I assume none will be given.

  1. Do you realize that the information you are sending to the USA is not considered as confidential tax information (Title 26 information), rather that it is non-tax information (title 31), and hence not subject to the privacy rules which govern USA tax information?

  2. Has any research been conducted on the possible circumvention of any privacy laws that passing FATCA legislation might have on Taiwanese citizens?

legal authority in Taiwan been consulted on potential conflicts of the proposed IGA with Taiwan’s Bill of Rights and other provisions contained within the privacy act? (i) If so, what have their responses been? (ii) If such consultation has not occurred, does Taiwan plan to seek such advice prior to the signing of any IGA?

  1. Has Taiwan considered the safety and security aspects of such a database falling into the wrong hands, and the possible effects on those Taiwanese citizens identified as “American”?

  2. How can Taiwan guarantee the protection of this information once it has been transmitted outside of its control?

  3. Does Taiwan realize that the data collected and sent to the IRS may be shared with other US government agencies for purposes unrelated to taxation, with no further consultation or agreement?

  4. If so, is it considered acceptable to expose the personal and financial data of Taiwanese citizens in such an unconstrained manner?

Basically FATCA raises more questions than answers, though the local government here seems not interested in hearing the reality of what they are about to sign.

[quote=“sqktaipei”]Hi Everyone,

I understand the topic of FATCA has been very underserved here in Taiwan, and for many, clarity regarding FATCA is a rarity. I recently conducted an interview with a Senior Tax Manager at Ernst and Young regarding FATCA’s impact on Taiwan. It is available in 中文 and English on Youtube @ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPg0c1-w5ys and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4ObjCGPP64 .

For those of you interested in the politics and conflict of law interests regarding FATCA in Taiwan, then check out http://squawkonomics.com/2014/02/02/fatca-meets-its-match-banking-confidentiality-law-to-derail-fatca-in-taiwan/

We handle compliance and market entry/sustainment strategy requests in frontier markets. I think this information should be helpful to anyone who is confused and needing clarity on the impacts of FATCA in Taiwan, and I hope it’s helpful to the community!

-SQK[/quote]

Interesting comments. Will US pressure Taiwan to comply anyway? Say, if you do not sign, no more weapons sales in the future?

Very likely they will yes. This is a political game in some respects. The US is not going to offer anything in return for that data either, this is the thing that irks many. This is not a reciprocal law, but if Taiwan doesn’t sign it, sure lots of things will happen. Including that lively 30% withholding on all transactions, which is what the FSC told me they fear the most.

This is old news.

Switzerland, Singapore, and Hong Kong have already stopped allowing new Americans to open investment accounts. They tell you to open it with their us entity. For the local banks in hk, the smaller banks refuse to open for us citizens and green card holders already.

So far I only know china and Mongolia has given the middle finger to the us. Everyone else is in compliance.

[quote=“JeffG”][color=#000000]Some distrubing news recently… I cannot reveal the source of the information due to job security issues for the people telling me these things, but I have gotten word that there are some banks in Taiwan that have started denying American Citizens banking services :fume: :fume: , meaning some backs are no longer allowed to open any new accounts for Americans living in Taiwan. Although it is not law in Taiwan, it has become an internal bank policy to reject Americans wanting to open new accounts due to FATCA legislation. This is only the tip of the iceberg of things yet to come for all nationalities include Taiwan citizens! FATCA has to be stopped now before more damage is done. I am very concened that banks will start closing American accounts simple because of FATCA, this has already begun in some European countries.[/color]

[color=#8000FF]

If anyone, especially Americans residing in Taiwan, encounters issues with banks rejecting to open a new account for them or being told their accounts are being closed for no good reason, please let me know ASAP which bank and what the circumstances were and what you were told.
[/color][/quote]

[quote=“deltaneutral”]This is old news.

Switzerland, Singapore, and Hong Kong have already stopped allowing new Americans to open investment accounts. They tell you to open it with their us entity. For the local banks in hk, the smaller banks refuse to open for us citizens and green card holders already.

So far I only know china and Mongolia has given the middle finger to the us. Everyone else is in compliance.[/quote]

The point is that Americans are now being turned away in Taiwan now. And those Americans who don’t sign the privacy release at their banks will simple be told their account is going to be closed. But not matter what we do I am qutie sure our fees will be going up for any services we need because of the extra paperwork the banks need to do.

I am simply reporting the information. The lack of support and information on FATCA in these forums is troubling. It proves either people are not fully aware of FATCA implications or they don’t know anything about this horrible law.

China is loving it I am sure, because in 10-20 more years, when perhaps China has grown up a little bit and becomes the leader of the world, they’ll start forcing anyone with Chinese llineage motherland tax.

U.S. citizens abroad simply have to find some way to get around these rules to have normal banking relationship overseas. If not married to local citizen then is a pain in the butt.

For Taiwanese with U.S. green cards, I guess they will eventually set up some system to skirt these rules. Maybe need to watch what they do and learn from them?

I am okay with reporting all of my accounts but just worry about arbitrary enforcement of not well-known and confusing rules.

[quote=“Flakman”]For Taiwanese with U.S. green cards, I guess they will eventually set up some system to skirt these rules. Maybe need to watch what they do and learn from them?

[/quote]

Their local accounts are with their Chinese names and nationality is Taiwan. How would US be able to match those up with their English names in US records?

[quote]by Flakman » 18 Feb 2014 11:31

U.S. citizens abroad simply have to find some way to get around these rules to have normal banking relationship overseas. If not married to local citizen then is a pain in the butt.

For Taiwanese with U.S. green cards, I guess they will eventually set up some system to skirt these rules. Maybe need to watch what they do and learn from them?

I am okay with reporting all of my accounts but just worry about arbitrary enforcement of not well-known and confusing rules.[/quote]

That’s just it, there isn’t a way unless one deems to open an offshore account in a country that doesn’t sign FATCA, but what happens when they finally do decide to join? Then you’re back in the same boat. Indeed some Americans can learn from the locals, but as was stated below by FH, if the names are in Chinese, their is an issue. As I know foreigners in Taiwan cannot certify our Chinese names or chops, so I do not think we are allowed to open bank accounts out Chinese names, someone please correct me if I am wrong. Reporting all your accounts is one thing, but being forced to do so and being spied on by the US government no matter if you are hiding something or not, is NOT OK!

Indeed. Even if they are American citizens, and opening bank accounts with thier Taiwan passport, I would suspect they might not have anything to worry about. But in this case, what would be their incentive to hang on to their US passport? Something to think about.

So where is all this going, it has been told before, I’ve said it, my other friend has said it and now it is happening. GATCA! Global Account Tax Compliance Act! thenewamerican.com/usnews/cr … corruption There will be no banking privacy very soon. The key point of FATCA is to create GATCA. And in the US banking industry that will also be DATCA, Domestic Account Tax Compliance Act. FATCA has to be stopped.

[quote=“JeffG”], but being forced to do so and being spied on by the US government no matter if you are hiding something or not, is NOT OK!
.[/quote]

If you have a problem with it, denounce your citizenship and move to wherever they will take you. Otherwise, get your stuff together and play along. Personally, I’m all for the US government seeking out malicious tax evaders…

WTF is banking privacy…governments have been looking into bank accounts for longer than I’ve been around…shit, don’t banks send out credit card deals based on how much money you have in your bank account?

More interesting to me is, how would the US government know where their citizens abroad live?

[quote=“archylgp”][quote=“JeffG”], but being forced to do so and being spied on by the US government no matter if you are hiding something or not, is NOT OK!
.[/quote]

If you have a problem with it, denounce your citizenship and move to wherever they will take you. Otherwise, get your stuff together and play along. Personally, I’m all for the US government seeking out malicious tax evaders…

WTF is banking privacy…governments have been looking into bank accounts for longer than I’ve been around…shit, don’t banks send out credit card deals based on how much money you have in your bank account?

More interesting to me is, how would the US government know where their citizens abroad live?[/quote]

This is exactely the kind of response I would expect from someone who is either NOT an American citizen or from someone who knows absolutely nothing about what FATCA really is or the implications of what it is going to do and has already started to do. And this is the whole problem right here! Thank you for showing on this forum what 99% of Americans in the US and those who know nothing about this law believe to be true or believe FATCA to be about if they have heard of the law. Please understand I am not trying to attack you, but what you have said represents a huge part of the problem! This law is not understood by most people, it is the secret tax law that no one knows about!

I have a problem with any government who forcing another country to follow its laws. Again, how can the US force Taiwan to abide by US laws? Please see question 5 on the first page of this thread!

[quote]5. As you are implementing and accepting USA law into Taiwan, do you understand that you are taking upon US punishments into Taiwan as well? Do you understand the punishments that are applicable to bank employees? Has your IGA contract specifically protected Taiwan bank employees from prosecution under US law? (No, it hasn’t and it doesn’t matter whether you have signed an IGA or not.)

bit.ly/16Zk3Dy

It says:
Shall be imprisoned not more than 3 years;
Or fined not more than $250,000 for individuals ($500,000 for corporations);
Or both, together with cost of prosecution.

bit.ly/17ubMYu[/quote]

I have my stuff together, and I am compliant, but there are many who are not compliant because they do not know and understand the rules as the IRS has gone out of its away to make sure we know nothing! They do not want us to be compliant! They prefer not to tell us and then penalize us to death!

Are you trying to tell me that anyone who has not understood the law, and did not file tax returns and pay taxes be punished beyond their means including jail time? Are you talking about the mass majority of Americans and other expats in Taiwan who make around US$25,000-$45,000 a year, have a family and pay Taiwan taxes, and those accidently American citizens who perhaps were born in the US but have never returned, but who were completely unaware of thier US tax obligations? Are you saying that those people should be jailed or fined or forced to pay back taxes and penalties and become bankrupt because they didn’t know?

FATCA specifically discriminates against Americans residing abroad! Do you agree that the IRS targeting of any group is acceptable? Just several months ago the IRS has been held responsible for targeting conservative groups!

There is a huge risk of identity fraud with FATCA!

The IRS is already successful in it’s attempts, without FATCA, to hunt down tax-evaders!

I highly suggest anyone with similar thoughts as the above poster, read the information on ACA’s website which will explain what FATCA is and why it is bad! americansabroad.org/issues/fatca … -repealed/

I’m extremely anxious about the effects of FATCA, especially concerning my ability to do banking in this country. I think people who aren’t concerned about it really don’t understand what it means. Perhaps they’re married to a local so they plan to put everything in his/her name. I just don’t know what I would do if all my bank accounts and credit cards were closed here. How will I pay bills? How would I save for retirement? At the moment, I’m leaning toward renouncing. I hate to do it, but I may have to. I just don’t feel like anyone will help us. No one back home cares. Heck, even people here don’t care, even though they could have all of their assets seized without warning. It’s scary.

Jeff, have you tried reaching out to the ACLU? I checked their website, and there’s nothing about the FBAR or FATCA, and I’m wondering if they would be interested in this.

I understand what you are saying…they went after my mom a few years ago - illegally – she got a lawyer and they didn’t even show up to court. They thought they could literally bully her into paying thousands of dollars. And I mean literally. She said they were demanding her to pay, threatening jail time, until the lawyer got into the mix. In the end she owed the IRS nothing. (But had to pay the lawyer 2k US.) I was serious about trying to get the citizenship of another country. I wouldn’t want to be Taiwanese, but I wouldn’t mind being Canadian/Australian/English/German…I guess changing citizenship isn’t that easy these days, though.

[quote]by Tiare » Today, 13:53

I’m extremely anxious about the effects of FATCA, especially concerning my ability to do banking in this country. I think people who aren’t concerned about it really don’t understand what it means. Perhaps they’re married to a local so they plan to put everything in his/her name. I just don’t know what I would do if all my bank accounts and credit cards were closed here. How will I pay bills? How would I save for retirement? At the moment, I’m leaning toward renouncing. I hate to do it, but I may have to. I just don’t feel like anyone will help us. No one back home cares. Heck, even people here don’t care, even though they could have all of their assets seized without warning. It’s scary.

Jeff, have you tried reaching out to the ACLU? I checked their website, and there’s nothing about the FBAR or FATCA, and I’m wondering if they would be interested in this.[/quote]

Well, on the bright side of all of this maybe is that when all the banks reject us from having accounts and close our current accounts then I guess we can’t pay our taxes to the US and all business will be done in cash with on way for the IRS or other tax agency to know. Perhaps this is a benefit to everyone around the world. No taxes, because there is no evidence anyone is making money! :slight_smile:

The renunciation thing has crossed my mind for the first time last year. With how this stuff is playing out, it’s going to be interesting as GATCA is now gaining ground too.

I had not considered to contact the ACLU, you can contact them if you would like. But upon seeing your message here, I took some time this afternoon and wrote them a 2 page letter, I highly doubt they are going to respond as I do not think this sort of thing is there cup of tea, but… it was worth a shot, thanks for thought.

I suggest everyone write their own letters to any group they feel would be interested in hearing our side. Especially contact your senators and reps back home and make your opinion widely known, because if they do not hear from you, they have no idea. Even if they hear from you they still have no idea, but… Anyway…

Greatly sorry to hear that! The IRS is great at bullying people, great at overreaching their authority and great at targeting groups! The only way it is going to stop is if the IRS is abolished, a great long term goal, but for now, they are hear to stay and reduce your chances of getting caught up in all of this by being compliant or renoucing and having your name put on the hall of shame list the gov’t puts out. It’s really sad to hear that archylgp. As for immigrating, well… That’s something you will have to consider like the rest of us, it is not easy, that is true, either you have money or you have something another country wants, otherwise, it’s pretty tough.

Obama’s 2008 campaign promises to Americans overseas - obama.3cdn.net/610c7f29ee85b124a3_3cm6bxltu.pdf I guess his response was creating FATCA for us.

I had another intresting discussion with my friend who works at a local bank…

I asked a bunch of questions and the summary is below.

  1. Locals who open new accounts will be asked to sign a declaration that asks if they are either a greencard holder or a US citizen. Thus locals who have not renounced or have to open a new account are going to be in deep doo if they have been compliant with the IRS.
  2. As for those locals that do not need to open new accounts, for now, they will probably be safe.
  3. post office accounts might be at risk as the post office banking services can still wire money to other counties, thus they are still int he system under the FSC.
  4. Asked what would happen when and if FATCA is implimented if i had an account at their bank and they asked me to sign a release to let them send my private information to the US and I said no, what would they do, this person replied, I hadn’t thought about that, the bank currrently has no policy and most colleagues would not have a clue how to respond.

It becomes more and more interesting how many questions FATCA raises but that few of the questions can really be answered. When FATCA hits the fan, there is going to be a complete melt down in many banking departments all over the world. In some ways it is going to be funny to watch, but in other ways everything is going to be a total mess, and my guess is, even if you have not agreed with the bank to send your data to the US government it may end up getting sent, a great possiblity for lawsuits? Unsure at this time…