Vaccine Mandates and vaccine passports

This seems to be becoming a thing in some countries.

USA starting with veterans affairs employees.

The vaccinated are transitioning from frustrated to pissed that schools and small businesses will keep shutting down because a third of society refuses to get vaxxed. Macron’s mandate that you need it to enter restaurants and cafes has caused a huge spike in vaccine rates. At the very least we should agree that elder care workers who are in constant and close proximity to the most vulnerable members of our society have a moral duty to be vaccinated in order to protect the very people they’re supposed to be watching over.

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I can certainly see the logic in that, but I don’t think we are just going to be talking about those who care for the elderly. NY and California had their own roll out on the same day.

I personally have no problem with it, considering the unprecedented crisis we’re in. Under circumstances that were much lower stake, Reagan mandated that striking FAA air traffic controllers had to come back to work immediately or would be fired and not allowed to be rehired in the future. He followed through with his threat.

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Have you pondered on why you believe this to be true, and why you feel so strongly about it? Are you sure that the issue of businesses being forced to do this can be solved by forcing other people to do that? What will you do if, once every newborn has had their shot in the arm, cases remain stubbornly high (as, of course, they will)? Who will you blame?

Lest anyone forget, the vaccines still do not have FDA approval. They are, technically, experimental. We have almost no reliable safety data for them because nobody is even attempting to collect such data.

Forcing people to take such things was - until this madness - forbidden by internationally-agreed guidelines on medical ethics.

I hope at least a few people take a stand and say, fine, I’m leaving. My niece actually did this last month. I am immensely proud of her. Fortunately, she walked straight into a lucrative new job where her qualifications are valued :slight_smile:

It may ultimately be a futile gesture. But if you’re stuck in a job where you’re treated like a peon, I don’t really see how the alternative is going to be much fun.

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The pandemic is neither unprecedented nor a crisis. Anyone who wants to get vaxxed can be, and anyone else assumes the risks. The risks to the vaccinated are astoundingly close to zero, which makes this latest and fakest of crises anti-scientific, power grabbing theater.

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I’m for it. Make it as difficult as possible for the morons who are too stupid, ignorant or selfish to get vaccinated.

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Do we not force people to get driver’s licenses before we let them behind the wheel of a car? What if people started whining that taking tests to drive infringed on their rights?

More relevantly, mandated vaccinations are nothing new. Saying they are is nothing but revisionist history. States have long had requirements for vaccines against all sorts of illnesses before children are allowed to enter schools. This anti-vax nonsense is just that and it’s getting old quick.
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/imz-managers/laws/state-reqs.html

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“Whataboutism” is not a very strong counterargument. And besides, a driving test is nothing like a vaccine.

This is also somewhat beside the point. Just because some dubious action has a precedent doesn’t make it right. I would suggest the reason for introducing vaccine passports is precisely to set a precedent for … who knows what. And in any case, most countries do not have compulsory vaccinations. They’re strongly encouraged, but not mandatory.

Anyway, we’re not talking about driving licenses or smallpox vaccines. Why do you believe that universal use of COVID vaccines specifically will solve the problem of business closures?

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It’s a slippery slope argument more than it is a whataboutism argument.

It’s not at all “beside the point.” It’s just an inconvenient point for you. If we had the level of vaccine resistance today back in the mid 20th century, smallpox and polio would still be running rampant and killing hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions. It’s good schools have vaccine mandates. I don’t want my child going to school where there’s measles, mumps, TB, and rubella on the loose.

You don’t trust the science and would rather live in a petri-dish the rest of your life. That’s fine, it’s okay to disagree. We can check back in a decade and I’ll assure you I haven’t grown horns or become autistic from taking my AZ shots.

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How about comparing the COVID vaccine to the Tetanus vaccine?

See the case of the boy whose parents didn’t want him to get the vaccine and then spent almost 50 days in intensive care for a total cost of over US$ 800k.

How far should society go to pay for the treatment of every preventable disease just because people didn’t want to take an (more or less) easily and cheaply available vaccine?

Same argument why seatbelts became mandatory and more and more countries put bans or at least high taxes on cigarettes. Both measures limit the freedom of the individual, but benefit society as a whole.

Though I understand that especially in the US it’s not always common to see this as a valid argument.

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Do you have any science qualifications? I’m not expecting you to post an answer, but unless you have a pretty broad base in math and statistics, chemistry, biology, and physiology, you need to consider the possibility that you’re being misled by “the science”. Without that background, you will be unable to interpret scientific papers and official data, and you’ll be unable to apprehend the outlines of immunology and molecular biology. I do have that background, and I still have to put in quite a bit of effort to find out what’s going on because a lot of published information is deliberately obfuscated.

I notice you’re simply unable to answer the questions I posed. Why do you think that is?

No, I would not. But as far as I am concerned, the world’s present state of partial lockdown is a purely political decision and has absolutely nothing to do with disease control.

How far, indeed? I mentioned elsewhere that, if you start (incorrectly) blaming “vaccine deniers” for burdening the health service, then the logical next step is to blame fat people for doing the same. Obesity, heart disease, and various other diet-related syndromes are the leading cause of death, and a primary drain on health resources, in most first-world countries. These diseases are easily preventable - and funnily enough, they also predispose people (by a factor of about 500%) to COVID complications. Should we perhaps lock these people in their houses and post only healthy food through the letterbox until they are better? We could kill several birds with one stone.

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Sorry, I didn’t know I was speaking to the world renowned epidemiologist Dr Finley. I think my opinions on this are just as valid as yours, so unless you can post your qualifications don’t try to shame me into backing down.

All I can say is you’re extremely cynical if you believe that. Please illuminate for me how the world governments would coordinate a global conspiracy to crater the economy and cripple tourism, education and the financial system because they think a pandemic is good politics.

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I didn’t ask you to post your qualifications. I was merely suggesting a little introspection: “Why do I think the things that I do? What evidence do I have for these beliefs?”.

I do have adequate background to delve into the details, and I spend a great deal of time doing precisely that, while trying to educate myself on the gaps in my knowledge.

The fact that you’re getting defensive suggests I’m pushing up against some ideas that have been put into your head that really don’t belong there.

Just because I can’t explain how or why it’s happening doesn’t alter the fact that it is happening.

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I mean you said it yourself: For the vaccinated, the risk of getting severely ill after catching COVID is very low. But then you also say it’s not the unvaccinated who require most medical attention now?

See the UK for example: 60% of people being admitted to UK hospitals are unvaccinated. Of those, a high percentage would have been avoidable with the vaccine!

So just because there are obese people, we shouldn’t talk about COVID vaccines?
And you’re the one who keeps mentioning whataboutism…

Unfortunately, obesity is not as easy to cure as getting a single shot vaccine. Develop one and you’re set to become a billionaire…

Still, I feel governments fighting obesity is a very important aspect of public health. Ans sometimes with success - see the sugar tax in the UK, for example: https://dentistry.co.uk/2021/03/12/uk-sugar-consumption-drops-within-a-year-of-sugar-tax/

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Three observations:

  • Those most at risk are almost entirely vaccinated. It’s something like 95%+ in most of the Western world. The absolute number of people who could conceivably develop life-threatening complications is very very small - much smaller than the number of people who are likely to end up in the ICU with less interesting diseases.
  • There is no obvious reason why vaccinating the (modest) number of people who don’t want the vaccine would reduce the risk faced by the vaccinated.
  • Risk of death by COVID is not equivalent to risk of all-cause mortality. If you run the numbers, all-cause risk is (was) barely altered by the COVID pandemic. The vaccines reduce your risk of death by COVID, but except for a certain demographic (healthy-ish people in the 50-70 age group) they do not dramatically improve your life expectancy. The reason, of course, is that COVID is a very inefficient killer compared to all the other things that are likely to get you.

Interestingly, point (3) is broadly true for a whole lot of “miraculous” drugs, not just COVID vaccines.

It’s very easy. Unfortunately governments are keen to keep people fat and ill, for some very complex reasons. Lots of fat people means fast cars and big houses for those in the right professions.

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So what do you suggest? How can the governments of this world solve this issue with a budget of less than US$100 per person (about the cost of two COVID shots) (leaving aside all the mysterious reasons why they wouldn’t want to do that in your opinion)?

Still, healthcare workers in many countries are reportedly still overworked by the influx of people who catch COVID and then require hospitalization.

I mean I get it: No benefit in vaccinating someone against their will just to “save” them from dying. I mean some religious groups also don’t want any medical procedures performed on their members.

But from the view of the entire society, it’s much cheaper and easier to mandate vaccines than to permanently increase the amount of healthcare workers one would need for treating all the unvaccinated people who will end up in the hospitals during the next months.

Or what is your suggestion how to avoid the additional strain of COVID patients on healthcare resources?

Probably just giving them a wonder drug once admitted and then they’ll walk out fine after some days.
But - oh! I forgot! Governments world-wide are also keeping these wonder-drugs hidden and inaccessible so they can instead purchase the dangerous vaccine from big pharma…!

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Well … they would first have to want to stop doing it, but the solution is extremely simple and would cost nothing: stop handing out dietary advice that makes people fat, and instead tell them what proper meals look like (because most people don’t even know). This isn’t hypothetical - there are individual doctors that are doing this, in contravention of NICE orders, with great success. And stop subsidizing the producers of the raw materials that go into bad food (ie., corn and soy) so that junk food isn’t artificially cheap.

Unfortunately this would require upsetting a lot of very rich people (and a lot of dumb people with political power). So it’s unlikely to happen.

Yeah, the key word here is “reportedly”. Go and look at the numbers.

Anyway, I don’t really understand your point. I gave you three reasons why mandating vaccines would not do what you think it would do. Are you disputing those points? Do you have any hard numbers to support your view?

Just to be absolutely clear here: if you support vaccine mandates, you’re advocating that State officials break the law in pursuit of a goal that has no scientific basis. And before I’m accused of being over-dramatic: I know that medical ethics agreements are not codified into law in most countries. However, officials are usually held to higher standards than the public, and a breach of ethics can be sufficient to land them in legal trouble.

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The problem of obesity is a great example.

Obesity is a massive contributor to high rates of cardiovascular disease, strokes, type 2 diabetes, hypertension, various cancers such as breast and bowel cancer, and a myriad of other health problems. Obesity remains one of the most dangerous preventable health issues ever. One could argue pretty easily it is ‘worse than Covid.’

One might almost call it a pandemic. In fact, the WHO recently stated: “Obesity has reached epidemic proportions globally, with at least 2.8 million people dying each year as a result of being overweight or obese.”

So, close to pandemic, anyway :slight_smile:

In this case, why don’t we get a mandate to make obesity zero, just like we are doing with the zero-Covid policies? I mean if Covid is a disease that no one is allowed to get, why stop there? Are almost 3 million deaths a year from obesity ok? Why are we tolerating this? :thinking:

Maybe we should also have a daily deaths from obesity stats every day from the central government, and have a zero tolerance approach to it, as the cost to society from obesity is and has been for many a year, extremely high.

Surely we should also declare obesity as a health issue “no one should be allowed to have,” (just like Covid) seeing as the costs to the individual and society are off the charts.

Covid can only dream of such far-reaching negative health consequences as occurs from obesity.

My guess as to why this hasn’t or won’t happen is that obesity is usually a direct result of overconsumption. Attacking the problem of obesity may hit certain company profits. I guess vaccines are preferred as no one is required to change their diet or lifestyle.

Which leads me to believe the issue of vaccine passports is not so much a health issue. Otherwise, why not also mandate good physical health and a strong immune system?

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I’m pretty sure we could solve the problem really fast if we threw $16 trillion at it:

The COVID-19 Pandemic and the $16 Trillion Virus | Infectious Diseases | JAMA | JAMA Network.

Seriously: it makes me very sad to think that so much wealth - which could have done so much good - was chucked down the COVID sinkhole. And for what, exactly?

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