This seems to be becoming a thing in some countries.
USA starting with veterans affairs employees.
This seems to be becoming a thing in some countries.
USA starting with veterans affairs employees.
The vaccinated are transitioning from frustrated to pissed that schools and small businesses will keep shutting down because a third of society refuses to get vaxxed. Macronâs mandate that you need it to enter restaurants and cafes has caused a huge spike in vaccine rates. At the very least we should agree that elder care workers who are in constant and close proximity to the most vulnerable members of our society have a moral duty to be vaccinated in order to protect the very people theyâre supposed to be watching over.
I can certainly see the logic in that, but I donât think we are just going to be talking about those who care for the elderly. NY and California had their own roll out on the same day.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/de-blasio-tells-nyc-workers-get-a-shot-or-else/ar-AAMzPt4
I personally have no problem with it, considering the unprecedented crisis weâre in. Under circumstances that were much lower stake, Reagan mandated that striking FAA air traffic controllers had to come back to work immediately or would be fired and not allowed to be rehired in the future. He followed through with his threat.
Have you pondered on why you believe this to be true, and why you feel so strongly about it? Are you sure that the issue of businesses being forced to do this can be solved by forcing other people to do that? What will you do if, once every newborn has had their shot in the arm, cases remain stubbornly high (as, of course, they will)? Who will you blame?
Lest anyone forget, the vaccines still do not have FDA approval. They are, technically, experimental. We have almost no reliable safety data for them because nobody is even attempting to collect such data.
Forcing people to take such things was - until this madness - forbidden by internationally-agreed guidelines on medical ethics.
I hope at least a few people take a stand and say, fine, Iâm leaving. My niece actually did this last month. I am immensely proud of her. Fortunately, she walked straight into a lucrative new job where her qualifications are valued
It may ultimately be a futile gesture. But if youâre stuck in a job where youâre treated like a peon, I donât really see how the alternative is going to be much fun.
The pandemic is neither unprecedented nor a crisis. Anyone who wants to get vaxxed can be, and anyone else assumes the risks. The risks to the vaccinated are astoundingly close to zero, which makes this latest and fakest of crises anti-scientific, power grabbing theater.
Iâm for it. Make it as difficult as possible for the morons who are too stupid, ignorant or selfish to get vaccinated.
Do we not force people to get driverâs licenses before we let them behind the wheel of a car? What if people started whining that taking tests to drive infringed on their rights?
More relevantly, mandated vaccinations are nothing new. Saying they are is nothing but revisionist history. States have long had requirements for vaccines against all sorts of illnesses before children are allowed to enter schools. This anti-vax nonsense is just that and itâs getting old quick.
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/growing/school-vaccinations.html
âWhataboutismâ is not a very strong counterargument. And besides, a driving test is nothing like a vaccine.
This is also somewhat beside the point. Just because some dubious action has a precedent doesnât make it right. I would suggest the reason for introducing vaccine passports is precisely to set a precedent for ⌠who knows what. And in any case, most countries do not have compulsory vaccinations. Theyâre strongly encouraged, but not mandatory.
Anyway, weâre not talking about driving licenses or smallpox vaccines. Why do you believe that universal use of COVID vaccines specifically will solve the problem of business closures?
Itâs a slippery slope argument more than it is a whataboutism argument.
Itâs not at all âbeside the point.â Itâs just an inconvenient point for you. If we had the level of vaccine resistance today back in the mid 20th century, smallpox and polio would still be running rampant and killing hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions. Itâs good schools have vaccine mandates. I donât want my child going to school where thereâs measles, mumps, TB, and rubella on the loose.
You donât trust the science and would rather live in a petri-dish the rest of your life. Thatâs fine, itâs okay to disagree. We can check back in a decade and Iâll assure you I havenât grown horns or become autistic from taking my AZ shots.
How about comparing the COVID vaccine to the Tetanus vaccine?
How far should society go to pay for the treatment of every preventable disease just because people didnât want to take an (more or less) easily and cheaply available vaccine?
Same argument why seatbelts became mandatory and more and more countries put bans or at least high taxes on cigarettes. Both measures limit the freedom of the individual, but benefit society as a whole.
Though I understand that especially in the US itâs not always common to see this as a valid argument.
Do you have any science qualifications? Iâm not expecting you to post an answer, but unless you have a pretty broad base in math and statistics, chemistry, biology, and physiology, you need to consider the possibility that youâre being misled by âthe scienceâ. Without that background, you will be unable to interpret scientific papers and official data, and youâll be unable to apprehend the outlines of immunology and molecular biology. I do have that background, and I still have to put in quite a bit of effort to find out whatâs going on because a lot of published information is deliberately obfuscated.
I notice youâre simply unable to answer the questions I posed. Why do you think that is?
No, I would not. But as far as I am concerned, the worldâs present state of partial lockdown is a purely political decision and has absolutely nothing to do with disease control.
How far, indeed? I mentioned elsewhere that, if you start (incorrectly) blaming âvaccine deniersâ for burdening the health service, then the logical next step is to blame fat people for doing the same. Obesity, heart disease, and various other diet-related syndromes are the leading cause of death, and a primary drain on health resources, in most first-world countries. These diseases are easily preventable - and funnily enough, they also predispose people (by a factor of about 500%) to COVID complications. Should we perhaps lock these people in their houses and post only healthy food through the letterbox until they are better? We could kill several birds with one stone.
Sorry, I didnât know I was speaking to the world renowned epidemiologist Dr Finley. I think my opinions on this are just as valid as yours, so unless you can post your qualifications donât try to shame me into backing down.
All I can say is youâre extremely cynical if you believe that. Please illuminate for me how the world governments would coordinate a global conspiracy to crater the economy and cripple tourism, education and the financial system because they think a pandemic is good politics.
I didnât ask you to post your qualifications. I was merely suggesting a little introspection: âWhy do I think the things that I do? What evidence do I have for these beliefs?â.
I do have adequate background to delve into the details, and I spend a great deal of time doing precisely that, while trying to educate myself on the gaps in my knowledge.
The fact that youâre getting defensive suggests Iâm pushing up against some ideas that have been put into your head that really donât belong there.
Just because I canât explain how or why itâs happening doesnât alter the fact that it is happening.
I mean you said it yourself: For the vaccinated, the risk of getting severely ill after catching COVID is very low. But then you also say itâs not the unvaccinated who require most medical attention now?
See the UK for example: 60% of people being admitted to UK hospitals are unvaccinated. Of those, a high percentage would have been avoidable with the vaccine!
So just because there are obese people, we shouldnât talk about COVID vaccines?
And youâre the one who keeps mentioning whataboutismâŚ
Unfortunately, obesity is not as easy to cure as getting a single shot vaccine. Develop one and youâre set to become a billionaireâŚ
Still, I feel governments fighting obesity is a very important aspect of public health. Ans sometimes with success - see the sugar tax in the UK, for example: https://dentistry.co.uk/2021/03/12/uk-sugar-consumption-drops-within-a-year-of-sugar-tax/
Three observations:
Interestingly, point (3) is broadly true for a whole lot of âmiraculousâ drugs, not just COVID vaccines.
Itâs very easy. Unfortunately governments are keen to keep people fat and ill, for some very complex reasons. Lots of fat people means fast cars and big houses for those in the right professions.
So what do you suggest? How can the governments of this world solve this issue with a budget of less than US$100 per person (about the cost of two COVID shots) (leaving aside all the mysterious reasons why they wouldnât want to do that in your opinion)?
Still, healthcare workers in many countries are reportedly still overworked by the influx of people who catch COVID and then require hospitalization.
I mean I get it: No benefit in vaccinating someone against their will just to âsaveâ them from dying. I mean some religious groups also donât want any medical procedures performed on their members.
But from the view of the entire society, itâs much cheaper and easier to mandate vaccines than to permanently increase the amount of healthcare workers one would need for treating all the unvaccinated people who will end up in the hospitals during the next months.
Or what is your suggestion how to avoid the additional strain of COVID patients on healthcare resources?
Probably just giving them a wonder drug once admitted and then theyâll walk out fine after some days.
But - oh! I forgot! Governments world-wide are also keeping these wonder-drugs hidden and inaccessible so they can instead purchase the dangerous vaccine from big pharmaâŚ!
Well ⌠they would first have to want to stop doing it, but the solution is extremely simple and would cost nothing: stop handing out dietary advice that makes people fat, and instead tell them what proper meals look like (because most people donât even know). This isnât hypothetical - there are individual doctors that are doing this, in contravention of NICE orders, with great success. And stop subsidizing the producers of the raw materials that go into bad food (ie., corn and soy) so that junk food isnât artificially cheap.
Unfortunately this would require upsetting a lot of very rich people (and a lot of dumb people with political power). So itâs unlikely to happen.
Yeah, the key word here is âreportedlyâ. Go and look at the numbers.
Anyway, I donât really understand your point. I gave you three reasons why mandating vaccines would not do what you think it would do. Are you disputing those points? Do you have any hard numbers to support your view?
Just to be absolutely clear here: if you support vaccine mandates, youâre advocating that State officials break the law in pursuit of a goal that has no scientific basis. And before Iâm accused of being over-dramatic: I know that medical ethics agreements are not codified into law in most countries. However, officials are usually held to higher standards than the public, and a breach of ethics can be sufficient to land them in legal trouble.
The problem of obesity is a great example.
Obesity is a massive contributor to high rates of cardiovascular disease, strokes, type 2 diabetes, hypertension, various cancers such as breast and bowel cancer, and a myriad of other health problems. Obesity remains one of the most dangerous preventable health issues ever. One could argue pretty easily it is âworse than Covid.â
One might almost call it a pandemic. In fact, the WHO recently stated: âObesity has reached epidemic proportions globally, with at least 2.8 million people dying each year as a result of being overweight or obese.â
So, close to pandemic, anyway
In this case, why donât we get a mandate to make obesity zero, just like we are doing with the zero-Covid policies? I mean if Covid is a disease that no one is allowed to get, why stop there? Are almost 3 million deaths a year from obesity ok? Why are we tolerating this?
Maybe we should also have a daily deaths from obesity stats every day from the central government, and have a zero tolerance approach to it, as the cost to society from obesity is and has been for many a year, extremely high.
Surely we should also declare obesity as a health issue âno one should be allowed to have,â (just like Covid) seeing as the costs to the individual and society are off the charts.
Covid can only dream of such far-reaching negative health consequences as occurs from obesity.
My guess as to why this hasnât or wonât happen is that obesity is usually a direct result of overconsumption. Attacking the problem of obesity may hit certain company profits. I guess vaccines are preferred as no one is required to change their diet or lifestyle.
Which leads me to believe the issue of vaccine passports is not so much a health issue. Otherwise, why not also mandate good physical health and a strong immune system?
Iâm pretty sure we could solve the problem really fast if we threw $16 trillion at it:
Seriously: it makes me very sad to think that so much wealth - which could have done so much good - was chucked down the COVID sinkhole. And for what, exactly?