Vatican calls for 'normal China relations'

I guess, as with all businesses these days, this had to happen.

I am not a religious person but this still sickens and saddens me.

Vatican calls for ‘normal China relations’

January 21, 2007 01:31am
Article from: Agence France-Presse

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THE Vatican said today it wanted to normalise relations with Beijing, calling for “respectful and constructive dialogue” to rebuild ties severed nearly six decades ago.

In a statement following a two-day review of the Vatican’s China policy, the Holy See said it wished to “overcome misunderstandings of the past” with Beijing, which does not allow Chinese Catholics to recognise papal authority.

While Catholicism is allowed in China, a state-sanctioned “patriotic Church” with an estimated five million members does not answer to the pope and ordains its own bishops. A clandestine Church, with some 10 million adherents, tenaciously maintains links with the Vatican.

A longstanding modus vivendi between the Holy See and Beijing – by which most of the bishops of China’s official Church have been legitimised by the pope – was upset last year when Chinese state authorities went ahead with the ordination of four bishops that did not have Pope Benedict XVI’s tacit approval.

Diplomatic ties between China and the Vatican have been severed since 1951, two years after Beijing’s officially atheist communist government took power.

Normalisation would require the Vatican to break off ties with Taiwan, which Beijing considers a renegade province.

The Vatican statement said participants expressed the desire to normalise relations at “different levels” in order to benefit the Church and work together for the good of the Chinese people and for peace in the world.

Pope Benedict XVI did not attend the meeting, which was led by Vatican number two Tarcisio Bertone, but he was broadly informed of the discussions and “has decided to send a letter to Catholics in China,” the Vatican said.

Among the top Vatican officials and Church leaders at the meeting was Hong Kong Bishop Joseph Zen, an outspoken advocate of human rights and religious freedom who is pushing for a change of direction on China.

“It’s about time that people know that we want to be Catholics who are in communion with all the Catholics in the world, under the direction of the bishop of Rome (the Pope),” Zen wrote in his diocesan weekly on January 7.

From: news.com.au/story/0,23599,21 … 02,00.html

China has ordained what, six unapproved bishops recently? And the church is just going to sit there and turn the other cheek? Buncha pussies is what they are.

At the very least, they ought to break off all discussions and begin an intense lobbying campaign against China’s economic interests overseas. Make 'em kowtow…

Some people say JP-2 brought down Communism in Eastern Europe. Pope Razinegger, or whatever his name is, should show what he’s made of by doing the same with China. Some Nazi HE’S turning out to be…

[quote=“AWOL”]I guess, as with all businesses these days, this had to happen.

I am not a religious person but this still sickens and saddens me. [/quote]
Why? You have a problem with an organized religion or any organization for that matter trying to reach out to 5 ~ 15 million of its followers?

Seems pragmatic to me

This, I think, is the key. It’s clearly in both the Vatican’s and CCP’s interests to establish formal relations. There are a hell more lot of Catholics and potential Catholics in the mainland than in Taiwan, and anything the CCP can do to isolate Taiwan is good for them. You’d think some sort of arrangement (with which the Vatican is apparently satisfied) where the Chinese state church officially appoints bishops and the Vatican tacitly approves would be the perfect face-saving compromise for the two of them to move forward and establish relations. I guess someone high-level Commie wants to play hardball.

There is an old saying…

The two oldest companies in the world are the Church and the Mafia… and they are both Italian…

JP-2 was a great CEO who got into the fight against the CEO’s from Eastern Europe (all of them where in the ComParty ranks… if this one wants to be in history, either he gets he CEO’s from Middle East to play his tunes, or he has to turn somewhere else… and China is a big market.

[quote=“Lingchen”][quote=“AWOL”]I guess, as with all businesses these days, this had to happen.

I am not a religious person but this still sickens and saddens me. [/quote]
Why? You have a problem with an organized religion or any organization for that matter trying to reach out to 5 ~ 15 million of its followers?

Seems pragmatic to me[/quote]

DELETE

the vatican finds itself in an interesting and unique position, as it is both a religious HQ and a state.

does the vatican really give two hoots about human rights in china, other than religious freedom (or the freedom to have the vatican invest bishops, which is the nut of the issue)?

does the freeing up of chinese catholicism necessarily mean dumping taiwan’s catholics?
china will say yes, obviously.

and what will happen to the chinese state catholic church: will it rebel and continue on its own way, or will it ally itself with the vatican and allow the pope to reappoint a new slew of bishops? what about the power base of the extant chinese bishops?

thorny issue indeed.

not one that will bring down the chinese regime, unfortunately, or we could all stoke the fires with glee.

Oh please don’t bring down the china regime, I like it!

They’re having their cake and eating it too — communism and capitalism in proportion. Are they really communist in anything but name? I mean, Canada has socialized medicine. in China, you can’t even buy health insurance, you have to sign up w/ a provider from another country.

Keeping religion under lock and key? Goody! America hasn’t come close to separating church and state if a senator gets flak for puttin’ his hand on the Koran.

Producing every digital gadget I want at prices I can afford? Delicious!

Providing a location for every Taiwanese businessman to set up a second family? Coolio!

If the Chinese regime fell, the American Empire would only become more powerful.

The only reason I can see for having a democratic China would be that their parliament would have a shoe-throwing party that would make Taiwan’s look like a pillow fight.

what is communist in modern china? the name? the ideal of communism is long since dead and discredited.

it’s a brutal police state, otherwise known as an autocracy: rule by an elite for themselves, fuck the rest. and anyone who dares to have a differnet opinion is punished. they still hang their flag on the communist side of things as they need the connection with the ‘great leader’, the butcher Mao, and all the legitimacy in the eyes of the chinese populace that brings. but they are fighting hard to restrict the advance of civility and free living and free speech that they see in the west. it may not be guaranteed under democracy, but it sure would be better than the totalitarianism that is there now. even though taiwan politically is paralysed at the moment, things will get better as the processes that make democracy work are slowly adopted. rememebr, this place has only had full democracy for about ten-fifteen years now… i would still infinitely prefer to live here than over the strait. what a simple choice that is!

sure, capitalism is partially embraced as it makes more money and brings advances in so many things like modern industrial development and investment… but not fully embraced, as there are still tight restrictions on the value of money, restrictive investment rules for foreigners, etc, etc.

nothing wrong wth communist or socialist ideals, see the many advances cuba and venezuela for example have made in universal health carea and education. in fact, many of them shit on ‘american’ ideals of “biggest takes all, f;;k the rest” which is part and parcel of unbridled capitalism and govt non-interference.

i just want the regime to fall so china can be a better place to live for the majority of the population, not just the rich and connected. and so that they can stop supporting other repressive regimes around the world.

think of all the most brutal repressive regimes you can in recent history, and ask yourself, which one is not an ally of and defended vociferously by china?

zimbabwe
north korea
burma
sudan
cambodia
angola
iran
etc etc

[quote=“urodacus”]think of all the most brutal repressive regimes you can in recent history, and ask yourself, which one is not an ally of and defended vociferously by china?

zimbabwe
north Korea
burma
sudan
cambodia
angola
iran
etc etc[/quote]That’s a pretty selective list. How about the rest?

well, name some that are not allies of china. anything earlier than about 1955 doesn’t count, as china had no allies before then.

that was a few off the top of my head and in the news recently.

Indonesia? Suharto did his dirty work with American support and more than a few Canadian made arms.
Chile under Pinochet.
Vietnam, pre- and post-communism.
Pakistan (particularly with regards to East Pakistan/Bangladesh) (Correct me if I’m wrong… don’t know what relations were like at the time).
Papa Doc’s Haiti, maybe?

That’s just off the top of my head.

I agree with your point–supporting brutal regimes makes little sense (save for when the alternative is worse)–I just found the list a little fishy. A list of regimes supported by the US, UK, or France would turn up as many monsters, if not as many bodies. Hell, the list of butchers Mother Teresa snuggled up to is pretty atrocious. Pretensions to power cause even good governments to get into bed with bad regimes.

vietnam (there is no post-communism vietnam, the last time i looked they still are nominally communist, and pre-communist they were pretty much french indo china): staunch china ally. remember the vietcong were supported by chinese funded and trained NVA regulars.
pakistan? china ally, for a long time in the 70s and 80s. not so obviously now, i agree.
haiti: never bothered looking, but never had a censure motion in the UN supported by china, afaik.

chile. indonesia. hadn’t thought of those, but i should have. i agree with you there, but it does not change the thesis much at all.

look, there are more places to go on the list, but the point is that china supports brutal regimes for many reasons but partly so it can foster a climate of non-intervention in ‘domestic matters’ that suits it a lot more than constantly having to defend its own abysmal rights record.

not that the USA is blameless, but calling Peter a sinner does not automatically mean that Paul is OK. i did not go there. i would just like the chinese apologists here to remain aware that there are many people out in the world who still do not believe the pap that Xinhua puts out, who do not blindly idolise anything from Beijing, and who justifiably fear the unchecked power of the waking dragon. if china treats the rest of the world less well than its own people, which is pretty much a given for any country’s international relations, i feel the rest of us are in for a pretty tough time when china has the same power as the west.
education is the key to self empowerment, and china ain’t giving it to just anybody. party time for party people.

[quote=“urodacus”]Vietnam (there is no post-communism Vietnam, the last time i looked they still are nominally communist, and pre-communist they were pretty much french indo china): staunch china ally. remember the vietcong were supported by chinese funded and trained NVA regulars.[/quote]That’s like saying the Taliban were staunch American allies! Whatever, doesn’t matter. And I meant to say pre-and post-war Vietnam, only with reference to the regime. Got a better way to say it? I’m scratching my head.

I think that is just speculation. Would China abuse their power anymore or less than the West?

let’s paraphrase this back a notch -
“if china treats the rest of the world [ the same as it treats ]
its own people … i feel the rest of us are in for a pretty tough time…”

In any republic judge how the government treats their minority. Somehow I feel PRC treats their minority much better than the West these days.

i am poking my eyes out over that comment, i can’t stop laughing any other way. oh, the irony inherent in mankind.

hey, do you read george orwell or aldous huxley novels, by any chance?

“Somehow I feel PRC …”
now there’s a Freudian slip!
But really, are you referring to the Communist state as a rebublic?

nearly as bad as the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea…
anyway, Chinese citizens can now actually elect local officials and members of the national party congress… just not a vote-winning percentage of them, but rather a token so the CCP can point to the rest of the world and say that they have a participatory democracy. like the ‘democracy’ in Hong Kong…

i wonder if the ‘taiwanese’ members of the party congress can be elected by taiwanese.