Taiwanese bikes ? Load of rubbish. Only one that’s even half rideable is the FZ150 and it’s just a cut-down copy of a Japanese model. Why’s it a good bike? Japanese parts and design. I’ve got a 13-year old one that will piss on any 150cc scooter or bike (4-stroke) new or old in terms of speed and handling. That’s because the huge sticker price went into designing a fast bike that can go round corners at speed. Every tried cornering on a scooter after you get off a motorbike ? Frightening.
On a daily basis I ride a rickety plastic Taiwan scooter and it’s awful. It’s amazing where they put things like the fan for the radiator (sucks hot air through the radiator and forces it onto the cylinder jacket, thus reheating the water its supposed to be cooling), or the sump plug. The spark plug is positioned so that rain runs down the HT lead into the plug cap.
^^ Since they cut ties with Honda, both SYM and KYMCO have been having their scooter engines designed in Germany. Maybe it doesn’t rain there?
Quality side you are right on. My old NSR was still running strong at 10 years when I sold it, one of the Japanese crate motors. The later ones are nothing like as reliable.
As to the radiator location on scooters, even the Japanese do it that way. IIRC they put the rad on the timing side of the cylinder so it’s exhaust is only heating the cam chain tunnel. No biggie.
Those ohc Honda singles are bulletproof for two reasons: Low specific output (motor is not highly stressed) and grindstone simplicity (not much to go wrong).
[quote=“hexuan”]God help us when they start making bikes with electronic ignition and fuel injection.[/quote]Most bikes made here in the last 15 years have had electronic ignition, and I’d call it a blessing for the most part. Fuel injection would be a nightmare however when the average wrench’s approach to any and all fueling problems is to start replacing random parts, usually starting with the most expensive ones. The two most sophisticated bikes that were mass marketed here were disasters at the service department. The separate ignition and RC valve computers on the NSR, plus the servos and cables, were too much for them. Most of the FZ/Rs here seem to run on 1.5 cylinders because the carbs aren’t balanced properly. I once had some questions about the timing curve on the NSR and went to the factory service department to ask a few questions. I found the chief and put my queries to him. What I was told was that they had no service manual to refer to for help, and they diagnosed any and all electrical problems by replacing parts until the problem went away, just like the ‘black hand’ on every street corner. They had no diagnostics equipment or procedures whatever. I went from there to the factory parts department a few blocks away and got a service manual for NT$50. In 4 years it was the first they had sold. I was tempted to buy two and donate one to the service department, but figured I might just want to go back there some day…
The Yamaha Majesty scooters have both and they are supremely reliable.[/quote]The issue is not when it’s working fine. The problem is going to be when it starts playing up, and they haven’t got a clue why, and start playing find-the-problem by throwing random parts at it, on your account.
Yamaha does have a better training program than SYM or KYMCO, but not all the mechanics go to all of the courses. Far from it. Neither do all the shops buy all the special tools for all models. You can bet that most shops are not going to have a scanner to check the ECU for codes (assuming they are even OBD-II compliant), or an injector tester, or gauges for checking fuel pressures, or all the other wonderful aids to diagnosis. You’ll probably have to travel a ways to get someone with equipment and training for the Majesty to look at it, and even then they might not be fully up to the task.
The Yamaha Majesty scooters have both and they are supremely reliable.[/quote]The issue is not when it’s working fine. The problem is going to be when it starts playing up, and they haven’t got a clue why, and start playing find-the-problem by throwing random parts at it, on your account.
Yamaha does have a better training program than SYM or KYMCO, but not all the mechanics go to all of the courses. Far from it. Neither do all the shops buy all the special tools for all models. You can bet that most shops are not going to have a scanner to check the ECU for codes (assuming they are even OBD-II compliant), or an injector tester, or gauges for checking fuel pressures, or all the other wonderful aids to diagnosis. You’ll probably have to travel a ways to get someone with equipment and training for the Majesty to look at it, and even then they might not be fully up to the task.[/quote]
My KYMCO 125cc I recently purchased also has both. I had the same concerns about shop/maintainence abilities. I contacted KYMCO directly and, with their regional reps help, found a shop that has the tools and hopefully the know-how to do the diagnostics to maintain the 'scooter.
So far only 435 klicks, took it back in at 300 klicks for the 1st service, they appeared to do just fine. Time will tell.
A number of shops wouldn’t even sell this model to me. This did not instill confidence.
The Yamaha Majesty scooters have both and they are supremely reliable.[/quote]
half right… the Yamaha Majesty 250cc scooters are supremely reliable, the reason?.. designed and engineered in Japan, although recently with final assembly in Taiwan… the 125cc Yamaha Majesty scooters by comparison are supremely unreliable… the reason?.. designed and engineered in Taiwan… so much so that an acquaintance of mine who works at Yamaha Taiwan R&D suggested that it was a much better idea to buy a carb’ed version quickly before they discontinued them…
the 125cc FI versions are prone to quickly abandoning the factory fueling curves in favor of good old Taiwanese “cha-bu-duo-jiu-hao-le” injection, and/or complete failure… the only fix is to send the bike back to the factory for the “replace random parts until it works” diagnostics that hsiadogah mentioned above…a process that would take around 2 weeks if you live in Northern Taiwan… other than that the suspect Taiwanese design overstresses the connector rod / drive shaft bearings, a problem exacerbated by adding the dodgy FI system and often requiring an engine rebuild to replace the entire connector rod / piston assembly since the part is sold as a unit…
everything that is made, and especially designed on this island is subject to Taiwan’s “OEM culture” driven pursuit of something that “looks” a little better, whilst being cheaper to produce… function and quality are irrelevant as long as they are within the “just barely adequate” ballpark… this mind set in Taiwanese design and engineering is so common it even has a pseudo idiom in chinese… 偷工減料…
[quote=“plasmatron”]the 125cc Yamaha Majesty scooters by comparison are supremely unreliable… the reason?.. designed and engineered in Taiwan… so much so that an acquaintance of mine who works at Yamaha Taiwan R&D suggested that it was a much better idea to buy a carb’ed version quickly before they discontinued them…[/quote]I didn’t know that. I thought all Yamaha Taiwan R&D did was come up with the annual BNG (Bold New Graphics) collection. Since it’s inception Yamaha Taiwan has just manufactured bikes from tooling supplied from Japan after the JDM models have been discontinued. Why bother doing engine development work here when they could rely on Japan to do that? The only reason KYMCO and SYM went it alone was because they wanted to export and Honda said no. I’m sure that Yamaha Japan is not going to let the Taiwan operation compete against it in global markets, and certainly not without it’s own people in charge of product management. Does Japan really let YMT design and build it’s own product and slap the Yamaha name on it? Even that doesn’t make sense for Taiwan’s tiny market and Yamaha’s small share of it.
Fuel-injected scooters are going to become more and more common. Yamaha and Kymco already sell them and I believe SYM and CPI either have them now or will do shortly. This is the way that things are going. Emissions laws worldwide are getting stricter and as Taiwan is a major exporter of scooters, an increasing number will be fuel-injected.
In general, there is an increasing level of public interest in and knowledge about such technologies. I think that we will see more properly qualified mechanics with the appropriate tools in the near future. Customers will demand appropriate, high quality service from mechanics and if they can’t provide that they will lose business.
In the meantime, for those considering buying a fuel-injected scooter, Tainan Cowboy’s approach seems an excellent one. Contact the manufacturer and ask them to recommend a suitably qualified mechanic.
It was pointed out that the Yamaha FZ/FZR and the Honda/Kymco NSR150 were in some ways too advanced for local mechanics to fix. That’s not entirely true: my mechanic for one is Yamaha certified and balances carbs etc without batting an eyelid. But I think it’s fair to say that these two machines were one-offs in a way. The twin pistons of the FZ and the RC valve of the NSR were things that were not found on other bikes here at the time. The situation with fuel injection and other technologies is different, though.
As regards the quality of Taiwan-made bikes in general, I can only repeat what I said before. Things have really improved a lot and continue to do so. Makers such as KYMCO and CPI are producing well-made, well-designed machines with innovative features at affordable prices. Surely the majority of the foreign motorcycling press cannot be totally wrong?
exactly, good point… perhaps my previous post was misleading… Yamaha Taiwan is owned by one of two brothers, the other brother owns KHS bicycle group (which is how I know him) and Yamaha Taiwan is run mostly as an import business split into various sub companies that do musical instruments, generators, jet-ski’s etc. and the myriad of other products Yamaha has, a branch that does scooters and so on and soon will start the Yamaha motorcycle dealerships in Taiwan… so back to the point… I asked this guy I know who works in Yamaha R&D why Yamaha insists on making scooters that are spec’ed with such sh*te shocks and forks, not to mention the connector rod problem i mentioned before… he told me that Yamaha scooters are designed in a pseudo OEM fashion, they’ve got the bog standard last season’s engine design that they get given by Yamaha, probably along with a frame design, since they’d bugger up the geometry given half a chance… then what they do to “create” a scooter for the Taiwan market is add on the the rest of the components and the cosmetics which is the BNG bit you mentioned above… he said that basically they design within the limits of what their sales dept. guys reckon they can sell, which is flashy plastics, nifty decals, yet another amazing breakthrough in a key hole that opens the gas cap, opens the seat, and locks the steering…oooooh…ah…gasp… and the same old bog standard dodgy engine and frame that Japan fobbed off on them years ago… this is all done with the 偷工減料 (lit: steal work reduce materials) principal to keep costs down… and blam you have a made for Taiwan only model Yamaha… they can’t export them, and like you said they have a smallish portion of the taiwan scooter market but with 10 million scooters taking to the roads of taiwan every day it’s by no means a small market… but as I mentioned above, their eggs are not all in the scooter basket…
the point you’ve brought up is sort of liked to Joesax’s argument that Kymco and SYM can’t be that bad because they’re sold in Europe etc… in a lot of ways Joesax is right… but don’t for a second think that the Grand Dink… ooer… you buy here in Taiwan will be the same thing you’d get in Europe… firstly and thankfully it wouldn’t be called the Grand Dink for obvious reasons, but more importantly it’s have a different wiring loom, different ignition system, different drive belt, different fly wheel ratio’s, different ECU unit, a catalytic converter, different spec shocks, fork springs, head light reflectors, indicators, tires, non corrosive nuts bolts and coatings… not to mention altered seat and handle bar ergonomics… all in all it’s be a different scooter entirely to what they offer up for local consumption, albeit in the same plastics and cosmetics… which is a good thing considering a new 125cc Kymco scooter in the UK sells for well over 2000 pounds ( NT$122,720)…
[quote=“joesax”]Surely the majority of the foreign motorcycling press cannot be totally wrong?[/quote]I’m sure the foreign motorcycling press is as unbiased and objective as it ever has been. Advertisers get good reviews and non-advertisers are either ignored or reviewed with brutal honesty
As to the retail sector’s tactics in the face of an increasingly complex product, I think we’ll see a few things happen; One, there will be more of the ‘lead dealer’ type shops where the staff are better trained and more service equipment is purchased, but not a lot more. They will get busier servicing difficult problems for their one brand and become reluctant to work on others. Of course the brands that are selling better will attract more dealers like this, so if you buy a brand with smaller market share, you look harder and travel further to get service. The playing field has been pretty level for a long time. That will change.
Two, the majority of shops will not want or be able to tag along on the march to complexity and they will cater to those with older vehicles and the run of the mill cycle parts service, puncture repairs, crash damage etc. that they do now. They’ll continue to play with anything that rolls in the door, with the bare minimum investment in training or equipment.
The problem I see is that there’s a lot more profit in the latter than the former, so what is going to happen is that you’ll have a very small number of high-end shops that actually have any knowledge or specialist equipment in engine management, they will only work on one brand, and they will charge a great deal of money from their relatively few customers. The local shop will either refuse to work on injection problems, or attack them with the swap-and-test method, at your expense, and tell you to accept the tsabuduo outcome that finally results.
Honestly, I think EFI on a 1-cyl commuter scooter is a huge increase in costs for everyone in order to reduce pollution by a tiny insignificant amount. :loco:
Ihave since bought a Wolf with only 2000km on the clock and still loving it. It has been prefect for my needs.
My girlfriend and I went up to Wulai today. It took about 40 minutes each way I reckon, but the bike performed well enough. However, when I rode it again this evening, I noticed that the engine suddenly became very powerless after about 4000 rpm and the engine would shudder if I tried to push it. It seems like it needed warming up as after about 3 or 4 minutes, everything seemed to be functioning well again.
I was wondering whether one of you may know why it behaved like this and whether it is going to be a major problem?
I have spoken to Dave at Bikefarm and he reckons that they could increase the engine capacity to about 170cc or so on my rather underpowered Wolf… he mentioned something about boring the engine…? Not exactly sure what that means…
A couple of questions… Would it be worthwhile? It doesn’t really cost that much but I don’t really want to go ahead with the job if it means having to get a completely new bike in a year’s time… Furthermore, he said that a few of the other parts (such as the starter motor) would need to be replaced as they were only designed for the 125cc capacity. Would all these other replacements cost way too much to make it worthwhile?
I have upgraded the brakes and am also thinking about getting a disk brake for the rear…
A couple of months ago I was looking at a new Sym Wolf. One of the things that really turned me off was all the cheap plastic chrome-plated parts. The headlight housing, gauges, gauge surrounds and directional light housings are all plastic. The headlight lens is plastic, too. I’ve noticed that these parts don’t age gracefully, either. Many of the newer Ye3 Lang3 bikes around here have broken directionals and scratched-up crappy looking chrome parts.
The two most sophisticated bikes that were mass marketed here were disasters at the service department. The separate ignition and RC valve computers on the NSR, plus the servos and cables, were too much for them. Most of the FZ/Rs here seem to run on 1.5 cylinders because the carbs aren’t balanced properly. I once had some questions about the timing curve on the NSR and went to the factory service department to ask a few questions. I found the chief and put my queries to him. What I was told was that they had no service manual to refer to for help, and they diagnosed any and all electrical problems by replacing parts until the problem went away, just like the ‘black hand’ on every street corner. They had no diagnostics equipment or procedures whatever. I went from there to the factory parts department a few blocks away and got a service manual for NT$50. In 4 years it was the first they had sold. I was tempted to buy two and donate one to the service department, but figured I might just want to go back there some day…