Victims of "Microaggressions"

Taiwan Living in Taiwan
21

[quote=“superking”]
Why do people fastidiously stand on the right on the escalators in the London Underground, but in New Street Station they just stand all higgledy piggledy? I don’t think there is much rhyme or reason to this sort of stuff.

And I can’t agree that these things are acts of aggression. You just sound a little tired and probably need a vacation or something. How many times can I speak to the guy at my local takeaway? Or perve over Gemma who works in my local supermarket? Or talk to my mate about his son? Or discuss why I like to eat mild curry to a friend who likes to eat hot curry? And I live in my home country. Certain features of your interactions in life are going to be asinine or boring.

Of course, it’s a fascinating theory, and all I am really doing to is trying to put in some overseas perspective from someone who can see the same boring dull shit going on in the UK.[/quote]

There definitely is a reason why people stand on the right on the escalators in the London Underground, but in New Street Station they just stand all higgledy piggledy. It must have something to do with station design, socioeconomic class of the average passenger visiting each station and their behavioral norms, if the area is primarily industrial/commercial/residential as it affects people’s moods when they’re in the station (going to/leaving work as opposed to home), etc. There are reasons to explain everything, and people don’t just do things for no reason. It’s like trying to say your decision to purchase Coca Cola products was influenced 0% by that billboard your drive past everyday to work. I enjoy trying to figure that crap out. :slight_smile:

I get what you mean about having asinine conversations out of nothing to talk about, but I think you missed the point. None of those conversations you have with people include you don’t belong here questions such as “Why are you here”, “What are you doing here?”, “How much do you pay for rent?”, “Why can you speak English?”, “Wow! Your English is so good!”, “How long until you go home?”, “How often do you visit home?”, “Can you read and write English?”, “Can I see your ID?”, “You don’t look British, I don’t believe you”, or “You should find a British girlfriend”, which are all staples of every conversation with a new Taiwanese person.

22

[quote=“mike029”]
I get what you mean about having asinine conversations out of nothing to talk about, but I think you missed the point. None of those conversations you have with people include you don’t belong here questions such as “Why are you here”, “What are you doing here?”, “How much do you pay for rent?”, “Why can you speak English?”, “Wow! Your English is so good!”, “How long until you go home?”, “How often do you visit home?”, “Can you read and write English?”, “Can I see your ID?”, “You don’t look British, I don’t believe you”, or “You should find a British girlfriend”, which are all staples of every conversation with a new Taiwanese person.[/quote]

Yeah. In Britain, those aren’t the norms of polite conversation.
In Taiwan, they are.
You are being just as offensive to the Taiwanese when you FAIL to cooperatively use the forms that are polite in Taiwan. (cf Grice’s Conversational Maxims).

23

[quote=“ironlady”]
Yeah. In Britain, those aren’t the norms of polite conversation.
In Taiwan, they are.
You are being just as offensive to the Taiwanese when you FAIL to cooperatively use the forms that are polite in Taiwan. (cf Grice’s Conversational Maxims).[/quote]

Oh I remember studying Grice to do with conceptual development. :smiley: Something about how you can’t think well enough as a kid because you can’t talk to yourself expressively. I forget the exact thing!

People in Birmingham ask me about London ALL the time, including, “Why don’t you want to live there?” “When are you going back there?” and lots of comments about how I must be a cockney etc. I should really be the one moaning, because I am more likely to be having a, “why don’t you fuck off back to London,” convo, whereas in Asia you are more likely to be having a, “Hello I am curious about you and it’s culturally acceptable for me to ask things directly to you,” conversation. :smiley:

EDIT: And the double irony of getting asked, “why do you post on these boards if you don’t live in Taiwan?” thing from ex-pats living in Taiwan. :roflmao:

24

This. :bravo:

Gosh, if you aren’t willing to admit that there are different ways of thinking about things (for example, what’s polite and what’s not), maybe you’d better stay in your home country where things are done “normally”. Because underneath all the festivals and lovely national costumes, culture is nothing more than what you regard as “normal”.[/quote]

Does this ‘social greasing’ include telling obese people they are fat, asking them how they got fat, and finally asking them if they have tried dieting. How about pointing out flaws in someone’s skin, or other insulting commentary right off the get go?
People here have a very unique way of socializing, when you are with a group of men and women, many of the men go to great lengths to insult the women, this behavior is odd and not pleasant, candy coating it as a ‘cultural norm’ is actually being more bigoted than calling it what it is.

Should we applaud locals who show great skill with a knife and fork? I have been in Asia for over a decade and have NEVER met a foreigner who couldn’t use chopsticks, so the universal shock that a foreigner can use them is insulting, and akin to something like: “oh, you are a Muslim, I am surprised you didn’t bomb the building.”
These ideals and this ‘microagressive’ behavior is born out of stereotypes, and many people here are very provincial in their mindset. “Oh she is from Yunnan, she’ll put worms in your food and poison you.” “People from Sichuan are shifty.” “Shanghainese are greedy.” “Filipinos are …” etc…etc… etc…
To be fair much of this is a result of being in a semi-homogenized culture, but that doesn’t mean it is OK. Its not about what I perceive as ‘normal’ it is about what is right and wrong. It happens so frequently that I have made myself numb to it and just expect it, but it still disappoints because I think a lot of people here are smarter and better than that, and many indeed are, but there is still work to do. I also realize this happens in other countries, but this forum is about Taiwan and so is this thread, so there you go.

25

IT can be a thin line and many taiwanese are also ,believe it or not, unhappy with these types of questions.

Certain questions are acceptable depending on who is doing the asking as well. I have many tW friends and i have never seen this degrading of women you speak about in the group, but thats just my personal experience.

What kind of people they are and what social status they are can also determine how they interact within their group as well.

A bunch of taimei and taike hanging out will have different conversations then a group of businessmen and their wives I would think.

26

Some interesting comments and convincing arguments in this thread.
I don’t know which team to support.

27

There are dickheads out there, like the people who do the “dumb foreigner accent” well past the point where it’s stopped being funny and started being tiresome, or the people who ignore the fact that you’re wearing earbuds and are obviously listening to music or a podcast when they decide to engage in an unwanted conversation with you.

But most of the time, people are just being friendly. They may be using the local equivalent of small talk to break the ice, like how in the West we might say “Terrible weather for the time of year” or “How about those 49ers?”. We’re unlikely to walk up to a stranger and start talking about the art of film during the Weimar Republic.

People are also naturally curious about other people, especially if they’re different (from a different culture or country, speak a different language, etc.). They see you, and conclude, reasonably, that you might be visiting the country and they wish to welcome you. They wonder if you’re accustomed to your new environment. Or maybe they’re studying English and would like to level-up on their English skills. For instance, during a recent trip to Indonesia I took plenty of opportunities to try out the Indonesian I had been studying.

You probably come across hundreds of never-seen-before people each day, and if just a small proportion of them engage you, you’ll find that they may well ask similar questions (ones their culture has conditioned them to believe are harmless openers).

I do think some people, like the author of that piece, need to lighten up a bit. Yes, there is “micro-aggression”, but there’s also harmless chit chat and friendly interactions.

28

Someone stopping you to ask inane questions is referred to as aggression? :slight_smile:

Perhaps some people really shouldnt stray too far from home.

29

Thanks for posting this article since it explains my reaction to most of my time here. That crap got old 10 years ago. Now outside of work, I simply don’t interact with Taiwanese unless I have to. I don’t respond to “you speaka good Chinese!” or much of anything else with anything more than a polite smile. I know they consider that offensive sometimes but I stopped caring a very long time ago. The simple reason is that all of it totally wore me down over time. I tried to be polite but the slights got to be too much. It got much worse when I started a business and got completely ignored by delivery men and others who asked to see “the boss” meaning my wife. It’s like I was invisible.

My wife’s family are great people but their inability to remember I can use chopsticks after years of marriage pissed me off something fierce. I simply don’t interact with them unless I have to.

We have a choice here: you can order your life to a certain extent that allows you to do what you have to do.

As a business owner, I have to save my energy for pleasant interactions with customers and potential customers. I also need energy to make business decisions, continue my education, raise my kids, love my wife, etc. I can’t have it leeched out of me by people who basically don’t matter. So I pay more to go places where this doesn’t happen, fill my inner circle with people that won’t do this, speak English to keep the ball in my court when needed, listen to the MP3 player, etc.

If you’re going to make it here long term, you have to a survival strategy and I regained a sense of happiness when I developed mine.

30

Interesting article! And this thread so far is packed with responses which I think are hilarious and hilariously wrong.
Chris

Wrong on all accounts. There is nothing friendly with being asked private questions by complete strangers. Quite the opposite. Taiwanese never ever do this “among themselves” – Sitting somewhere eating noodles a Taiwanese person will never ever be approached with private questions by another Taiwanese unknown to him. That would bear all the hallmarks of a disturbed person.

[quote]We’re unlikely to walk up to a stranger and start talking about the art of film during the Weimar Republic.[/quote] err we are unlikely to just walk up to a stranger and talk to him – don’t you agree? Try this in the tube in London and tell us about the results :slight_smile:

And…in the rather unlikely situation that we successfully force a conversation on a complete stranger in a everyday anonymous situation, would “we” laugh at responses from that stranger? Would we completely ignore their embarrassment, would we completely treat them as a non-person the moment we have fun “among ourselves” (like the group of people in the train mentioned in this thread)

No, seeing a Westerner in a noodle shop in Taichung – it is not reasonable at all to assume that this person is a visitor and there are very very view visitors walking streets in YongHe

Other than Chris, ironlady seems to have a complete “off” day.

No, these are not norms of polite conversation in Taiwan! You can check for yourself by asking Taiwanese people this kind of questions. Try to do this when microaggression casts his ugly shadow on your existence. Just once!
Try the following: enter a noodle store and go to the next person (unknown to you) and ask (smiling and nodding your head) in Chinese: “are you originally from Taipei? Oh Pingdong – how often do you visit home. How much money do you make these days? Are you married?”

ironlady – I hope you were tongue in cheek in a very strange way when you wrote

As I see it. Non-Chinese looking strangers are not protected by the tight-knit sets of norms and restrictions with which society does regulate interactions between strangers. They are fair game.
Those Taiwanese we are talking about here in this thread are (like most Taiwanese) extremely sensitive to being exposed to embarrassing situations. They hate it to be pointed out, but they fail, utterly fail to live up to their own feelings as a human when they encountering non-Chinese people.
It is important to say that the majority of Taiwanese people do not talk up people, no matter foreigners or locals. And in this context applause for Tommy525

A true sentence that shows that everyone who tells me that I should get used to it or leave the island is wrong.
Taiwanese hate it to be grilled with personal questions. Even people who know each other, colleagues or friends often do not ask these kind of questions. I think Taiwanese are rather kind of secretive when it comes to private matters.

to wrap things up

no, Chris – this harmless chit chat would be hell for Taiwanese, and we foreigners get it on a daily basis.
The key word here is “people you don’t know” Taiwanese (just like we Westerners) can be irritated or puzzled by about any kind of verbal exchange with about anybody (and especially a unknown person or a non-Chinese). Try to chat up a unknown boy in his 20s in a restaurant with any kind of questions. Chances are that after the fifth question he will look frightened, start to tremble and a moment later you might see him dashing for the door.

My question – what is the Indonesian maid asked when sitting alone in a noodle shop slurping here lunch?

31

When I think of what non-whites in Britain have to endure and hear people here complaining about comments on using chopsticks or people saying hello in the street, well, I’m (for once) speechless.

32

some pointers im getting so far:

TWnese are thin skinned, westerners are thin skinned as well.

Taiwanese are private people who do not hassle fellow taiwanese but seem to hv a nasty habit of feeling enabled to ask white people the most intimate and inane questions without a thought that they may be offended or made to feel less then happy (much as they themselves would feel under the same circumstances).

Being asked inane and insane questions while white in TAiwan seems to be par for the course and you have to find a way to deal with it internally as it doesnt seem to be going away any time soon.

33

the whole notion of “asking private questions to break the ice” goes South completely once you notice (like I do) that in a private setup, like the already mentioned extended-family such questions are seldom asked.
During my decade old marriage I have almost never been asked a private question not by the elder nor the younger generation. If I ask questions about their lives, about them, the question is kind of answered, the situation gets a little awkward and then the topic is changed to “chi bao le mei” or similar. Granted maybe my in-laws are a little strange, but they are definitely Taiwanese. The loud environment, all the noise, the crowdedness, the whole setup of family reunions no matter in the house or outside is designed to oppress “personal conversations” anyway because it makes people feel uncomfortable. The hundred times shouted “gong xi fa cai” replaces the real personal contact.
It makes it difficult to be comfortable with my family here, because they are so damn nonpersonal.

34

[quote=“touduke”]Other than Chris, ironlady seems to have a complete “off” day.

No, these are not norms of polite conversation in Taiwan! You can check for yourself by asking Taiwanese people this kind of questions. Try to do this when microaggression casts his ugly shadow on your existence. Just once!
Try the following: enter a noodle store and go to the next person (unknown to you) and ask (smiling and nodding your head) in Chinese: “are you originally from Taipei? Oh Pingdong – how often do you visit home. How much money do you make these days? Are you married?”[/quote]

This is the bread and butter of interaction with Chinese speakers you don’t know, and if you have a shred of grace, it works like a charm. I would guess from the tone of your posts in this thread that the very large chip on your shoulder may be getting in the way of your interactions.

I do this all the time. I can’t do it in English in the West, which is one of the things I miss most from Taiwan. But in Chinese (even here), I can chat up anybody, anytime (and usually do). I have NEVER encountered a reaction such as the one you describe, no matter the age, gender or role of the person involved, assuming always that they understand Mandarin, and I’ve been chatting up Chinese speakers just about every chance I’ve had for 30 years.

Chip. Shoulder. Remove. :noway:

35

I thought of something to say - inane or not :wink: .

Differences bring out the stupid in people. I’ve done it myself. I once spent an evening with Roy Castle’s (probably not internationally known British entertainer) son and behaved like an idiot. If you live somewhere where you look noticeably different you can’t expect people not to react to that.

I’m just a newbie still on honeymoon here but I do know the rough side of racism. My eldest son had his arm broken in a racist incident while I was living in another country. I do know what people are talking about when they complain about people treating you differently. But you can expect human beings not to behave like human beings. It isn’t a ‘Taiwanese’ thing.

Racism is ingrained and insidious. I taught English for many years and it took me a long time to realise how racist English teachers can be. I gradually realised that the only informal conversations my colleagues, and I suppose me too up to that point, had with their students were about the differences between them - what’s it like in your country, what did you do in your country, what festivals blah blah blah. They thought of their students as the ‘other’ most of the time and the kind of conversations they had with them were completely different from the conversations we had amongst ourselves. And it’s the same here. You read many examples of casual racism about Taiwanese people on these boards.

Most people, especially on first meetings, can’t mentally get past that fact if a person looks different to them. And it makes them feel nervous and unsettled. A Taiwanese friend told me once that because children used to be punished for making mistakes in English class, the first thing the average Taiwanese person thinks when they see a white face is oh no! So they might say and do stupid things. Then there is the prestige of being able to speak English, so sometimes people want to take the opportunity to practise and/or show off.

I wouldn’t call an act of unconscious and unintended racism aggressive. Aggression implies understanding of what you’re doing. I think if such acts are interpreted in that way it’s unfortunate and unnecessary. It seems to me that there are many old timers here who have made their peace with the fact that there are occasional downsides to being white in an Asian country. In my experience these are far outweighed by the positives. What’s the saying? You can’t change the world, you can only change yourself.

36

For me it is simple. If I have a hangover or a cold or just want to be left alone i consider these questions a form of assault. When i feel like a normal himan being i treat them as ironlady and others describe them: conversation starters and social lubricants.

Living in taiwan can be a bit like living in a hostel. Same conversation over and over but really what do you expect? Everything gets tiresome but that doesnt mean the 100th german you’ve met on the road is an asshole for asking where you are from.

37

[quote=“mike029”]

[quote]In terms of the Hispanics, maybe you should, a tremendous amount of them do not speak English and are in the country illegally, putting that aside…
In the US, you see a dude in his 20’s who is clearly Asian…chances are hes American.
In Taiwan, you see a dude in his 20’s who is clearly Caucasian, chances are… (I’ll let you try to fill in the blank here)[/quote]

This is the difference between you and I. I don’t assume I know someone else’s situation, let alone their personal immigration status (or lack thereof), and honestly, I don’t care because it’s none of my business.[/quote]

No, I think the difference is probably more of high horses and PC crap, since I actually do not do that either. HOWEVER, having lived in AZ, southern California and NV for years, you sometimes begin to wonder if the US actually won that war years ago…

Of course I do this, all the time, from my apt in Taichung :doh:

My wife is Cuban, never carded (she isnt an FOB and speaks English fluently though…) nice play of your race card, here’s a couple :boo-hoo: :boo-hoo: :boo-hoo: for you as well in case you need

[/quote]Being asked “what are you doing in Taiwan” once every three hours feels like that. It feels like they are checking to see if I have a purpose here. According to you, that means that people here have the right to assume they know my situation here and treat me like a tourist every second of every day because, hey, I’m a foreigner so I must be a tourist because by percentage, there are more tourists. For all they know, I could have been born here. There are plenty of people around here that claimed ROC citizenship and they must be fed up with this. …and cue SatTV to wave his shenfenzheng around and claim how he’s a true local[/quote]

Unlike the US…you do not stick out for looking Hispanic, here, by looking EITHER white or hispanic…you do. HUGE difference, people can either deal with it or keep crying like a bunch of babies.

38

Most people “bothering” me are simply bored and want to talk. I actually am less annoyed with questions in Taiwan than I was in Singapore. At first, being naive, I wasn’t really catching the drift of questions during conversation until I asked a friend as I thought was a little odd. She explained most Singaporeans want to know your financial status (especially any women talking to you).

Where do you live? (they wanted specifics like which housing complex) [Reason: to judge how much you could afford]
Do you drive here? [Reason: asked in such a way to even see if you might have company furnished car or driver]
What kind of posting do you have? [Reason: looking for your expat status]
Will see you at American Club? [Almost always company furnished membership]
Where is your office located? [downtown financial distric most expensive]

I viewed that as “aggressive.” Over time I made friends with those who weren’t trying to be so tied to financial status…but it was difficult for me.

I much rather face some general questions from some old Taiwanes guys in the countryside over a cup of tea. They are just passing the time as am I…

39

[quote=“Mucha Man”]For me it is simple. If I have a hangover or a cold or just want to be left alone i consider these questions a form of assault. When i feel like a normal himan being i treat them as ironlady and others describe them: conversation starters and social lubricants.

Living in taiwan can be a bit like living in a hostel. Same conversation over and over but really what do you expect? Everything gets tiresome but that doesnt mean the 100th german you’ve met on the road is an asshole for asking where you are from.[/quote]

I think this was a great post!

In my neighborhood, I do have to CONSTANTLY nod, smile and say “nihao/liho” to every person who stares at me while walking my dog, going to 711, whatever. Most of the time its fine and I end up chatting it up with people. People stare at broad shouldered, big nosed, shaved head, tattooed and earringed mr. whitey here (me) so when I see them stare I nod, say a greeting then their face lights up and they all happy. When people are rude and STARRRRRE like in a coffee shop, I actually wave to them! They then realize they were being rude and either smile and wave back or avert their eyes and pretend they were not looking (after a little ‘startle’ look across their face and jolt through their body when I wave).

But on the days I am in a bad mood and do not want to talk to anyone…I do not play mr. nice foreigner and just keep my head down. But of course, thats my attitude, not theirs.

40

Most of the time, it really doesn’t bother me. You just have to look at the people and their backgrounds/experience and you understand it. This is what they know, and most of them have perfectly good intentions but have never been taught basic social skills or awareness of other peoples feelings. Some are just assholes, or acting like assholes in that moment.

The ACTIONS that are dangerous, or outright harmful to other humans or animals, now that tends to bother me. The violence towards women, gang violence on one unarmed man, the driving, violence and cruelty towards dogs and other animals. The reluctance to call police/ambulance or otherwise assist when they see someone lying in street trapped under a scooter. These actions are completely different story.

The words and questions are only a problem if we make them a problem. Often they just don’t know what to say. Even in the west, talking about the weather can be a little silly but I guess at least it’s impersonal and thus less threatening. I’ve never had strangers in the west ask me where I live or how much money I make. Taiwanese aren’t too shy to ask personal questions, although many get shy when you reverse roles. Most of the questions although rude, are harmless. It’s all relative.