[quote]
According to a study published Monday in the journal Pediatrics, pledge takers are as likely to have sex before marriage as other teens who are also religious, but don’t take the pledge. However, pledge takers are less likely than other religious or conservative teens to use condoms or birth control when they do start having sex. [/quote]
I don’t think these pledges are really about teaching one’s daughter to abstain, but more about a father’s control over his daughter’s sexuality. Or just plain control over her period.
How can he control her periods? The mind boggles! And what’s a “virginity pledge?” Yet more evidence of the utter and complete weirdness of Americans. They’re DEFINITELY more “foreign” than the Turks or even the Norwegians!
They most certainly don’t.
Most vows/promises people make regarding sex are pretty much out and out lies.
Like when Snadman swore to Mrs. Snadman that he’d never had congress of a carnal nature with a domesticated farm animal prior to that time she caught him…
Or when BFM borrowed Dr. McCoy’s rabbit suit and swore he wouldn’t bring it back sticky…
Probably should have put a comma btw that period part. I wasn’t talking about his control over her menses, although I’ve heard of some father’s counting the pads/tampons as a means to keep an eye on their daughters…
[quote]
According to a study published Monday in the journal Pediatrics, pledge takers are as likely to have sex before marriage as other teens who are also religious, but don’t take the pledge. However, pledge takers are less likely than other religious or conservative teens to use condoms or birth control when they do start having sex. [/quote]
I don’t think these pledges are really about teaching one’s daughter to abstain, but more about a father’s control over his daughter’s sexuality. Or just plain control over her period.[/quote]
Fortunatly, men have no more controle over periods than do women.
Personally, I think the biggest flaw with the pledge deal is that you’re working with adolescent humans. These are people who, dispite seeing 8 of their 15 best friends get pregnant, fundamentally do not understand that it can also happen to them.
Their brains are not completely developed and their hormones are all over the place. So, they can stand and recite a pledge, but they really, trully, cannot make the connections between their behaviors and the possible outcomes or consequences. They may not even make the connection between the pledge and the behavior. No matter how, or how long they’re talked to, or by whom.
The pledges CAN make them feel very badly about themselves if they don’t keep the pledge. These same people tend to be fairly obsessed with themselves and any percieved “flaw.”
So, I’m Christian, but I’m not real big on the pledge thing. I think that REAL sex ed–that demistifies the process and frankly and completely addresses any need or want to know, for both sexes, is a better deal and more respectful.
And for the record, I also find it disrespectful for adults to say, “Look, I know you’re going to have sex.” Both these take for granted a forgone decsion that the adolecent has yet to make, and this takes the power to make the decision from the adolecent.
I think it’s important for PARENTS to impress on their children what they believe is the right thing for thier children, but ultimatly, a person should have sovereignty over their bodies. Saying this, I have to admit, the thought of my son becoming sexualy active too early is scarry, scarry, scarry!
No problem.
The summer the houseTomcat turns 12, send him over to spend the holiday with Uncle chiefy and Uncle Bubba 2 Guns.
We’ll get him squared away.
He’ll come back to you, ready for Junior High, with no illusions whatsoever about The Girl Deal.
Personally, I think the biggest flaw with the pledge deal is that you’re working with adolescent humans. These are people who, dispite seeing 8 of their 15 best friends get pregnant, fundamentally do not understand that it can also happen to them.
Their brains are not completely developed and their hormones are all over the place. So, they can stand and recite a pledge, but they really, trully, cannot make the connections between their behaviors and the possible outcomes or consequences. They may not even make the connection between the pledge and the behavior. No matter how, or how long they’re talked to, or by whom.[/quote] I think that’s a bit of an underestimate of teens. I think many of them can understand the consequences and the connection. What they may not grasp is the depth of the intimacy and the weight of what their needs would be in a sexual relationship. The problem I find with these pledges, are the fact they are mostly stemming from the Christian community and it’s involving guilt and manipulation via scripture to get a woman, not the boys, to control the sexual process. It’s almost as if we’re subconsciously re-enforcing that yes, Eve was the cause of original sin and that a woman’s sexuality is something that should be repressed because it leads to some sort of “danger.”
[quote]The pledges CAN make them feel very badly about themselves if they don’t keep the pledge. These same people tend to be fairly obsessed with themselves and any percieved “flaw.”[/quote] I don’t think it will make them feel very badly, but they may have an unhealthy relationship toward sex.
[quote]
And for the record, I also find it disrespectful for adults to say, “Look, I know you’re going to have sex.” Both these take for granted a forgone decsion that the adolecent has yet to make, and this takes the power to make the decision from the adolecent. [/quote] How is it disrespectful? We can have honest conversations about how to wash one’s self, what their body parts mean and work but we practice honesty during the course of puberty? That’s loony.
[quote]I think it’s important for PARENTS to impress on their children what they believe is the right thing for their children, but ultimatly, a person should have sovereignty over their bodies. Saying this, I have to admit, the thought of my son becoming sexualy active too early is scarry, scarry, scarry![/quote] I’m guessing as a single mom, you’re gonna be having the above conversation when the time comes, unless you want to be a young granny.
Personally, I think the biggest flaw with the pledge deal is that you’re working with adolescent humans. These are people who, dispite seeing 8 of their 15 best friends get pregnant, fundamentally do not understand that it can also happen to them.
Their brains are not completely developed and their hormones are all over the place. So, they can stand and recite a pledge, but they really, trully, cannot make the connections between their behaviors and the possible outcomes or consequences. They may not even make the connection between the pledge and the behavior. No matter how, or how long they’re talked to, or by whom.[/quote] I think that’s a bit of an underestimate of teens. I think many of them can understand the consequences and the connection. What they may not grasp is the depth of the intimacy and the weight of what their needs would be in a sexual relationship. The problem I find with these pledges, are the fact they are mostly stemming from the Christian community and it’s involving guilt and manipulation via scripture to get a woman, not the boys, to control the sexual process. It’s almost as if we’re subconsciously re-enforcing that yes, Eve was the cause of original sin and that a woman’s sexuality is something that should be repressed because it leads to some sort of “danger.”
[quote]The pledges CAN make them feel very badly about themselves if they don’t keep the pledge. These same people tend to be fairly obsessed with themselves and any percieved “flaw.”[/quote] I don’t think it will make them feel very badly, but they may have an unhealthy relationship toward sex.
[quote]
And for the record, I also find it disrespectful for adults to say, “Look, I know you’re going to have sex.” Both these take for granted a forgone decsion that the adolecent has yet to make, and this takes the power to make the decision from the adolecent. [/quote] How is it disrespectful? We can have honest conversations about how to wash one’s self, what their body parts mean and work but we practice honesty during the course of puberty? That’s loony.
Yes, we’ll be having that talk! I’m very open and honest with him and give him answers that are as complete, and as correct, as possible about as much as possible that he asks about.
I think it’s disrespecful to tell a person, at any age, that you already know what they’ll do, or what they want, or what they think. Takes that person for granted as a known entity and discounts their ability to make their own decisions, and possibly the vality of their decisions.
I’m not sure what you’re talking about having to do with washing and hygene. If we can talk frankly about sex, we can sure talk about how to be clean.
As far as I’m aware, both boys and girls make these pledges. I made one when I was about 15. I did not have sex, either, until I was an ADULT, but I didn’t wait for marriage. I married when I was 29 years old! But my not having sex as a young teen had nothing at all to do with that pledge. It had to do with other stuff in my life and my own self immage at the time.
We may be thinking differently about teens and adolecents, but between the ages of 10-15, kids really don’t make these kinds of conections very well. Even longer than that for boys, which is why young men make such good soldiers.
Trully, I agree that they don’t understand the intimacy and their emotional needs, but this is also made worse because they are so self obsessed. But maybe, again, you’re thinking of older teens.
[quote=“Chiefy”]No problem.
The summer the houseTomcat turns 12, send him over to spend the holiday with Uncle chiefy and Uncle Bubba 2 Guns.
We’ll get him squared away.
He’ll come back to you, ready for Junior High, with no illusions whatsoever about The Girl Deal.
Just try to ignore the tattoos.[/quote]
:no-no: You ever seen a momma bear come after a wolf sniffing around her cub? :no-no:
You guys’d be singing suprano. But I bet my boy’d have the time of his life! How about I send him when he’s 18? Or maybe 37?
[quote=“Chiefy”]No problem.
The summer the houseTomcat turns 12, send him over to spend the holiday with Uncle chiefy and Uncle Bubba 2 Guns.
We’ll get him squared away.
He’ll come back to you, ready for Junior High, with no illusions whatsoever about The Girl Deal.
Just try to ignore the tattoos.[/quote]
:no-no: You ever seen a momma bear come after a wolf sniffing around her cub? :no-no:
You guys’d be singing suprano. But I bet my boy’d have the time of his life! How about I send him when he’s 18? Or maybe 37?[/quote]
Maybe we can work out a summer trade, you can spend a couple months with the chieflette, painting each other’s nails and such, and your boy’ll come home knowing how to do wheelies and make apple bongs.
Sounds like a square deal to me.
I think it’s disrespecful to tell a person, at any age, that you already know what they’ll do, or what they want, or what they think. Takes that person for granted as a known entity and discounts their ability to make their own decisions, and possibly the vality of their decisions. [/quote]
So, you’ve never said to your son, “I know you don’t like your veggies, but eat them anyway!”
My pledge was the opposite and it was almost impossible to live up to for a number of years.[/quote]
Right. Either way it’s hard work. And they say young people are lazy today.
I think it’s disrespecful to tell a person, at any age, that you already know what they’ll do, or what they want, or what they think. Takes that person for granted as a known entity and discounts their ability to make their own decisions, and possibly the vality of their decisions. [/quote]
So, you’ve never said to your son, “I know you don’t like your veggies, but eat them anyway!” [/quote]
Sooooo not the same thing. And no, I don’t force him to eat things he doesn’t like. I give him the option to go hungry until the next meal.
If I said, “I know you like touching girls, but you better not!” I’m just gonna make him want to do it all the more.
If I tell him, “I know you are not going to eat these green beans, but you have to anyway,” I’m just setting up a conflict. I might try to bribe or cajole, but to try to force him is no longer about beans, but about power trips, usually. If he were a teen, and the issue was something other than green beans, like keeping the door open with his girl in the room, or something like that, that might be different.
Even now, respect issues come to mind. I will and do tell him, if he steps out of line, that he WILL show respect. And I will force it, if I have to. But this is, again, not the same.
If I say, “I know you’re not going to eat these green beans no matter what I say, but sit and listen to me lecture you about it anyway,” that’s just me being selfish, stupid, mean, because I can say that I’ve put us both through a lot of needless stress over the fact that he should eat the beans, but he still has chosen not to eat them–so it’s not my fault and I don’t have to feel responsible. And then to make SURE I don’t have to be responsible for my child’s behavior, I can go on and give him instructions on how to saftly dispose of the offending beans so that I’m both unaware, and untroubled by the continued existance of green beans outside of my boy’s tummy.
See how rediculus this gets? And think of this. We tell little boys and little girls all the time that they have say over their bodies, other than mommy and daddy or the Dr, no one has permission to touch them in a way that they don’t like or want to be touched. The can say no, they should say no, and they MUST tell us if someone makes them uncomfortable or doesn’t obey when they say no. But then we go and tell them, “look, I know you have the right to say what goes on with your body and all, but I already know what you’re going to do, so do this or don’t do that, or use this,” or whatever.
I think it’s better to be frank about the green beans, why I want him to eat them, why I do or don’t eat them, how to eat them and what are some good alternatives if he decided he just can’t bring himself to eat them.
The point is, to be open, honest, and keep the communication lines open.
[quote=“the chief”]
Maybe we can work out a summer trade, you can spend a couple months with the chieflette, painting each other’s nails and such, and your boy’ll come home knowing how to do wheelies and make apple bongs.
Sounds like a square deal to me. [/quote]
Yep, then my boy could hook up with the chieflette and teach her everything you taught him! Fair and four cornered.
And what’s a “virginity pledge?” Yet more evidence of the utter and complete weirdness of Americans. They’re DEFINITELY more “foreign” than the Turks or even the Norwegians!
