Viva Italia!

[quote]Some might think it is a bit macabre or tacky, but I find it quite touching that this company is apparently memorializing September 11th.

At a time when the British, German, and French populaces have become vocally opposed to U.S. security interests, and the German and French governments have engaged in diplomatic sabotage and shortsighted opportunism, Italy is acting responsibly and compassionately. Viva Italia![/quote]
So putting an American flag on a calendar by a single Italian company equals Italy ‘acting responsibly and compassionately’, but remembrance and sympathizing with America by other countries, i.e. their governments and their population, isn’t worth mentioning?
There are countless examples of that by countries an their population which oppose(d) the war, so where is the perspective in your post?

Your remark about the British, German and French populations is missleading at best, them and their governments opposing the war does not equal to not feeling compassionately about the victims of 911.
Surely ‘acting responsibly’ is your point of view but not supporting the war, even opposing it actively, does not equal to not being or feeling compassionately.
Compassion can hardly be a free-pass for waging war. IMHO.

I can’t help the feeling you want others to be the way you want them to be, not see them how they actually are so that you ‘have another argument’ which fits your point of view … :?

Your comments are surely right, Rascal.

Nevertheless, I find it amazing that you employ this line of argument, here! Because your opposition to the war, as we established on another thread - does prevent you from supporting giving charity to rebuild Iraq.

As i m new here, was browsing some old topics. Found this one. Doesn t take much to make you feel good. If only you knew what the italian people are thinking of the war in Iraq. Did you not see the demonstrations over there against it ?

And I do agree with Rascal, it is not because we are against something that we have no compassion. I have as much compassion for the poor people who died in the twin towers as those who died during the iraqi war. None is less important and all are heartbreaking

So those killed by terrorists who slam a plane into a tower are the moral equivalent of those who are accidentally killed ridding a nation of a dictator that killed millions despite the great efforts to prevent civilian casualties, an effort which was fully exploited by Saddam and the insurgents who seek to maximize civilian casualties?

Also, Rascal’s point is cute but not quite an accurate reflection of the comments made by senior German officials and respected pundits and academics. Clearly, there is much anti-Americanism in Germany and I hope that it has been stanched now that we have finally gotten rid of the inept and nasty Schroeder-Fischer duo. Good riddance to them both. Hearty welcome to Merkel.

Ironic isn’t it that the Bush team and its allies have all won re-election excepting Spain, while one by one the dominoes fall among the opposition? 2007 is the day of reckoning for France. I hope that we see Chirac arrested and put on trial for corruption and Villepin thoroughly walloped.

So those killed by terrorists who slam a plane into a tower are the moral equivalent of those who are accidentally killed ridding a nation of a dictator that killed millions despite the great efforts to prevent civilian casualties, an effort which was fully exploited by Saddam and the insurgents who seek to maximize civilian casualties?

Also, Rascal’s point is cute but not quite an accurate reflection of the comments made by senior German officials and respected pundits and academics. Clearly, there is much anti-Americanism in Germany and I hope that it has been stanched now that we have finally gotten rid of the inept and nasty Schroeder-Fischer duo. Good riddance to them both. Hearty welcome to Merkel.

Ironic isn’t it that the Bush team and its allies have all won re-election excepting Spain, while one by one the dominoes fall among the opposition? 2007 is the day of reckoning for France. I hope that we see Chirac arrested and put on trial for corruption and Villepin thoroughly walloped.[/quote]

That would be funny if the Neo cons had clean hands.
Bush and all the “CRAZIES” (as they were called by staff during the 80s) would make a south American drug lord look like a saint.

Those murdered by bombs from planes and bullets from soldiers is terrorism. Torture in prisons of anyone who they feel like rounding up - that’s terrorism.

The people in Iraq killing the most people are foreigners. And they aren’t some fake devils whose so called leader died a couple of years ago, but the white house sponsered media likes us to believe he’s alive and well.

The foreigners doing the most killing are Americans.

Colin Powell said Iraqi deaths are of no concern.

Neo cons go on about the people who died in the terror attacks in NY but they have no regard for their soldiers doing the fighting and losing limbs and suffering from diseases in years to come, just from dodgy vaccines pumped into them.

This mess will never end as long as these foreigners occupy and cause terror in Iraq.

So those killed by terrorists who slam a plane into a tower are the moral equivalent of those who are accidentally killed ridding a nation of a dictator that killed millions despite the great efforts to prevent civilian casualties, an effort which was fully exploited by Saddam and the insurgents who seek to maximize civilian casualties?

Also, Rascal’s point is cute but not quite an accurate reflection of the comments made by senior German officials and respected pundits and academics. Clearly, there is much anti-Americanism in Germany and I hope that it has been stanched now that we have finally gotten rid of the inept and nasty Schroeder-Fischer duo. Good riddance to them both. Hearty welcome to Merkel.

Ironic isn’t it that the Bush team and its allies have all won re-election excepting Spain, while one by one the dominoes fall among the opposition? 2007 is the day of reckoning for France. I hope that we see Chirac arrested and put on trial for corruption and Villepin thoroughly walloped.[/quote]

Fred smith. Are you implying that those who lose their lives in Iraq are somehow worth less that those who died on 9/11?

No I am saying the moral equation of the killing is vastly different. Deliberate efforts to maximize civilian deaths cannot be equated with accidental deaths during military campaigns especially when many of those deaths occur because insurgents and Saddam forces intentionally put civilians in harm’s way knowing of US policies regarding minimizing civilian deaths.

No I am saying the moral equation of the killing is vastly different. Deliberate efforts to maximize civilian deaths cannot be equated with accidental deaths during military campaigns especially when many of those deaths occur because insurgents and Saddam forces intentionally put civilians in harm’s way knowing of US policies regarding minimizing civilian deaths.[/quote]
I agree. Regardless of whether the war in Iraq should have been fought or not, once declared, the inadvertent civilian deaths there cannot be compared with the deliberate, non-combat deaths in 9/11, in terms of morality.

So, back on topic, other thoughts on Italy and its apparent support or lack of support for the U.S.?

I think we should remove all troops from Iraq and other areas of the world then, on MaPoSquids words. Obviously a flag on a calender means more to you than pouring of billions of (12 zero’s, btw) pounds into and many lives into a war supporting your country on the war against terrorism.

I also expect that you obviously know the word on the street in Britain at the moment, seeing as you must have spent alot of time there talking to the Brits about security interests.

But don’t worry. next time you need our help we’ll send a couple of transport planes over and drop a few boxes of calendars on the enemy for you. How’s that?

Don’t be so sensitive. Britain is America’s most important ally. There was a time when Kohl and Reagan were in office that we believed Germany might be. We learned our lesson. I for one value the British as allies and greatly admire the swath of civilization and development that their empire left around the world. A great example of a major step up in civilization.

what were you saying about Ireland Fred Smith ???

One example of less enlightened rule does not negate the overall contribution the British made to science, law, civilization, economics, trade, politics, rule of law, justice, etc. etc. AND the British experiment in Ireland was really what passed for the norm in what was then a very brutal world.

I think we should remove all troops from Iraq and other areas of the world then, on MaPoSquids words. Obviously a flag on a calender means more to you than pouring of billions of (12 zero’s, btw) pounds into and many lives into a war supporting your country on the war against terrorism.[/quote]
Ummm . . . you do realize that Shar is “gravedigging” threads up from two or three years ago, right?

Also, I seem to recall that Italy did send troops, although eventually they were forced through public pressure to pull them out – just as Britain has been making motions towards.

Well, if you read The Mirror then you’re probably right. But I doubt it, especially as Britain has just upped its operations in Afghanistan (with a new platoon of 2006 calendars).

No, seriously, more troops are going to Afghanistan, and as to the general public Afghanistan and Iraq are one of the same, I doubt troops would be withdrawn from iraq, save for handing over power.

I m sorry to say that the vocabulary quoted gives me goose pimple. To think that the number 1 power in this world can dictate what is an acceptable killing and what is not (but maybe again I m too emotional :unamused: )

quote
No I am saying the moral equation of the killing is vastly different. Deliberate efforts to maximize civilian deaths cannot be equated withaccidental deaths during military campaigns Unquote

Who is the next acceptable by US standard ?
Not going to waste any more time here. French (and American) bashing will go on, that s for sure.

[quote=“Dangermouse”]

No, seriously, more troops are going to Afghanistan, and as to the general public Afghanistan and Iraq are one of the same, I doubt troops would be withdrawn from Iraq, save for handing over power.[/quote]

I don’t think the general public sees Iraq and Afghanistan as the same. There was a hell of a lot more support for the attack against Afghanistan than there was for the attack against Iraq. I think people can see the reasons clearer for the attack on Afghanistan than they can for the attack on Iraq.

Nonsense there was a lot of shrill protesting about the number of civilians who would starve etc etc. bombing of a country for the acts of a few, etc etc. and they were wrong. The difference between Iraq and Afghanistan is that we allowed a six month rather than one month lead time and that allowed the peaceniks and others of their ilk to get their parties going. Next time, we will be sure to give only a one-month lead up to ensure that public opinion remains “docile.” :smiling_imp:

(SORRY THIS IS IN ANSWER TO SHAR LEE) If you cannot see the difference in morality involved in different kinds of killing even though the death is an unfortunate fact for the individual in question, then I really do not know what to say to you.

[quote=“fred smith”]
If you cannot see the difference in morality involved in different kinds of killing even though the death is an unfortunate fact for the individual in question, then I really do not know what to say to you.[/quote]

Fred: Do you actually read posts to try and understand a person’s point or do you just read into things that you want to read into them. Nowhere did I make any comment about “the difference in morality…” so I don’t know where you came up with this. Although it is a bit strange given your past ranting against moral relativism that you now seem to subscribe to moral relativism.

Sure, some people were against both wars but the level of anger against both wars was not the same. A lot of countries that supported the fight in Afghanistan did not support the fight in Iraq. People were able to see a difference between the reasons for the two wars. I don’t think people equate Afghanistan and Iraq as being the same for this reason. Also people can see the direct connection with terrorism in relation to Afghanistan easier than they do with Iraq.

Anyway, I still don’t get where you got the moral relativism thing from since I don’t think I wrote anything about that. Please explain how you got this from my post.

Bwahahahaha!
:laughing: :bravo:

Yes, I’ve often wondered about this myself :wink:

But I agree with this.