I am a bit surprised to see PAVC use sentences like this:
學中文有一點兒難
It has always been my understanding that in Taiwan the correct way would be something along the lines of
學中文有一點點難
Does this mean they are interchangeable in Taiwan, or perhaps that there are regional differences, or something else?
[quote=“pqkdzrwt”]I am a bit surprised to see PAVC use sentences like this:
學中文有一點兒難
It has always been my understanding that in Taiwan the correct way would be something along the lines of
學中文有一點點難
Does this mean they are interchangeable in Taiwan, or perhaps that there are regional differences, or something else?[/quote]
Regional difference. You won’t hear that “兒” in south China. What you’ll hear here is 學中文有一點難.
[quote=“Tempo Gain”]
Regional difference. You won’t hear that “兒” in south China. What you’ll hear here is 學中文有一點難.[/quote]
By “south China” you mean ROC or PRC? I know northern PRC uses 兒. What I am not sure about is why a Taiwanese text book would be using it, hence is it used in Taiwan?
Southern Taiwan is never referred to as ‘south China’.
ROC or PRC. no, there’s still some feeling that northern pronunciation is the standard for Mandarin, which gets reflected in textbooks. you will basically never hear it in Taiwan.
The repetition of the “dian” is to soften the tone or make it seem like a smaller amount.
The question of whether an “er” is affixed to the dian is based on regional preferences. The “er” is associated with northern China, as has been said.
Hence my confusion, I was asking about usage in Taiwan. (:
一點兒 is how they say it in northern China.
一點 is how they say it in Taiwan and southern China.
They convey the same meaning.
一點點, however, denotes a smaller amount than 一點.
You won’t hear 一點兒 in Taiwan. The inclusion of it in textbooks is a hangover from the Chiang Kai-shek days when they thought that foreigners should learn a more mainlandy style of Mandarin. I find this line of thinking outdated and impractical.
A good textbook geared at Mandarin as spoken in Taiwan should not include it.
Regarding 一點 vs 一點點, thanks I didn’t know that!!
Regarding the text books using 一點兒… Well that is why I was so confused in the first place if people in taiwan dont use it why are text books created by and used by Taiwan universities using it! :loco: :loco: :loco: :loco: :loco: :loco:
[quote=“pqkdzrwt”]Regarding 一點 vs 一點點, thanks I didn’t know that!!
Regarding the text books using 一點兒… Well that is why I was so confused in the first place if people in taiwan dont use it why are text books created by and used by Taiwan universities using it! :loco: :loco: :loco: :loco: :loco: :loco:[/quote]
That’s the $32 million NTD question.
I think Shi-Da is sincerely under the illusion that there are foreign universities that might want to make use of their books - they also include simplified characters in the glossary, IIRC. Has anyone heard of PAVC being used outside of Taiwan within, say, the past 20 or 30 years?
You will still hear the retroflex 兒 on the news here sometimes, by the way, for similarly mysterious reasons.
There are still a few words that commonly have 兒 in Taiwan, such as 一會兒 and 媳婦兒. “Erhua” is also used more often than in real life on Taiwan-made TV dramas.
[quote=“pqkdzrwt”]I am a bit surprised to see PAVC use sentences like this:
學中文有一點兒難
It has always been my understanding that in Taiwan the correct way would be something along the lines of
學中文有一點點難
Does this mean they are interchangeable in Taiwan, or perhaps that there are regional differences, or something else?[/quote]
I’m also using PAVC. You have to understand that a textbook is going to be a bit more formal than the way people actually speak. This is just a technicality. People in Taiwan don’t like to use the 兒 sound because they dont like to use 兒 for anything which is why they tend to drop the 兒 or trade out that word with another word (一塊兒 -> 一起） but the reality is that whether you say 一點點， 一點， 一點兒 any semi-fluent or better speaker of chinese is going to understand. Personally I use 一點 unless I am trying to emphasize the little-ness, in which case I will use a very drawn out 一點點.
There’s a lot more 兒 in PAVC, but best to get advice on whether you need to drop the 兒 or change to another word if you feel self conscious about the 兒.
Apologies if this is too off-topic, but god I hated using PAVC for precisely such reasons, not to mention the appallingly contrived ‘dialogues’ which even the scriptwriter of Parting Shots would sneer at. Imagine being a beginner or false beginner taking your first tentative steps in a new language and having your fragile confidence shattered by the laughter of your listener when you break out a ‘你要去哪兒?’ which you thought was correct because your published in Taiwan textbook is shot through with such crap.
I have worked in a few schools in the UK and despite the myriad faults of many of the textbooks, I have yet to come across one that regularly uses [strike]abortions[/strike] words like ‘sneakers’, ‘sidewalk’ etc for the simple fact that they are designed for use in a country where such vocabulary is simply not used. Why those living or studying Chinese in Taiwan only have crap textbooks (correct me if I’m wrong, please!) like PAVC to work from I know not.
I think the hatred toward PAVC is a bit overly dramatic. I find it to be a good set of textbooks. Of course the examples are a bit contrived, it’s a textbook. you have to learn to walk before you can run.
It really depends on what your goal is, if you want to be able to speak exactly like a local then you’re just going to have to speak with a local. Do you think you’re going to learn how to say “Let’s go catch a movie” in a textbook?
Perhaps not, but if I went to America for a beginner’s English course I would indeed be quite angry to find out after the fact that I was being taught things like “WC” and “petrol.”
I had a similar experience to tetentikov’s with saying “哪裡，哪裡” - yes, I was met with laughter, though thankfully it was with a friend. And the first time I wrote an essay in Chinese for an elementary school teacher friend of mine he couldn’t figure out why I kept using 得 and 要是 in every sentence. Had to make an effort to get out of that habit, as I believe PAVC doesn’t teach you the alternatives that are much more commonly used here until book 3 or 4. So yes, I can understand the anger towards it.
Ultimately, since virtually every beginner studying Taiwanese Mandarin is in Taiwan, books need to open with a focus on practical Chinese. This is why so few English teachers get past book 1. They spend often up to a year or more working on it without learning, for example, how to order food in a restaurant! Who wouldn’t give up in those circumstances? A nice grammatical foundation is only nice when you have no need to immediately use what you’re learning.
Well, first of all, I don’t think people should be overly concerned about using a ‘wrong word’ every now and then. God forbid I tell some American that I’m going to the loo. I think I might disintegrate with shame as the bloke laughs at me.
And second, if you are using the textbook in a classroom environment the Teacher is going to point these things out. (If they don’t, find a new teacher!)
I appreciate knowing. I was in the US not too long ago and a mainland beijing speaker asked me “作天好玩兒嗎？” I had no idea what he meant at first, but at least I ‘knew’ it and didn’t recognize it instead of just being dumbfounded.
If you’re looking to actually learn the language then really it’s not a big deal. If you’re only interested in learning how to find the bus stop or order some food, then I agree, this book is not for you.
Using the wrong word is not a big deal. Being taught only the wrong word is. You will learn the differences as you get to a more advanced level and start being exposed to mainland writing, movies, etc. Should students in Taiwan be forced to learn simplified characters too?
If I went to Montreal to study French, I’d expect to be taught Canadian French, not Parisian French. If I went to Brazil to study Portuguese, I’d expect to be taught Brazilian Portuguese. And so on. It seems that only in Chinese education does this view that “you must learn The One Standard!” still exist.
Anyway, there are alternatives to PAVC in Taiwan, but no local teachers use them. The “one-size-fits-all” approach needs to be discarded, but I don’t see that happening anytime soon.
To quote myself…
Ah, if only it were that simple.
Teachers in Chinese centers here who are willing to point out the way locals speak Chinese to beginners are likely outnumbered by those who actively discourage their students from talking like a local.
Of course, you’d have to be very proactive to even know that any difference exists fresh off the boat. Most of them take a couple semesters to figure out that there’s something going on here besides not curling tongues.
You would hope if you were in a class these things would be pointed out. Doesn’t help self learners though (:
I realise that down the track it doesn’t matter if some old out of date words are being used now, it just seems slightly inefficient and more to the point very strange that a taiwanese book would use beijing “lingo”. Aside from this, it does seem to be the best book I have used to study chinese, the large number of example sentences to practice are really useful.