# Waishengren **URL:** \ **Category:** Learning Chinese\ **Created:** [January 14, 2005, 9:01am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/waishengren/14917 "2005-01-14T09:01:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ironlady](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/i/d2c977/32.png) [@ironlady](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/ironlady)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2005, 4:58pm UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/waishengren/14917/21 "2005-01-17T16:58:11Z")
[quote=“porcelainprincess”] Upon reflection, I think that waishengren itself should be used in italics, and on first instance it should be explained in parenthesis as “an ROC citizen who either immigrated from mainland China following WWII or is the descendant of such an immigrant.”[/quote] This is reading too much into the term…not only (and mainly) because this was a fluff piece, as Tetsuo rightly points out, and not only because by so translating it you then lose the “foreign-ness” in parallel with the Forumosans (as in “citizens of other countries” although if we want to be nit-picky is Taiwan really a country so can we say “other” countries… 😃 .???) – but because different sources would have different definitions of what a waishengren really is, often depending on their own spin on things. Being as how I know who you are in “real life”, porcelain 😃 , I’m sure there is another element you can appreciate in this scenario: this job pays NT$3 per word. Compare that to NT$5-6 equivalent going rate in the US…how long are you going to spend agonizing over one such term, especially for a client who requires the translation within an hour or two every day? Just saying…I agree with the treatment you suggest if this were a “real” document where the substance of the term was crucial to the piece as a whole, but in this case it isn’t. That might be the interpreter in me…looking at the discourse as a whole instead of at each individual word. Comes from long afternoons of conferences where the entire back row of the audience was asleep and drooling on the tables in front of them. Makes you realize that sometimes the translation of an individual word (provided it’s reasonable, of course) might not start a nuclear war in each and every case… ---
**Author:** ![Bu\_Lai\_En](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/dc4da7/32.png) [@Bu\_Lai\_En](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/Bu_Lai_En)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2005, 6:13am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/waishengren/14917/22 "2005-01-18T06:13:04Z")
> [@](#): > > IMHO, waishengren is a political term and only used in Taiwan. This term doesn’t exist in other Chinese speaking areas, AFAIK. Incorrect. Waishengren - ‘outside/foreign province person’ is also used in China. For example, my wife is on the phone to someone in Guangdong. They pick up from her accent that she is not form Guangdong, but not that she is from Taiwan. So they ask “Are you waishengren”. So the ‘Guangdongese’ (Cantonese) use it to differentiate between themselves and other Chinese form other provinces. Big Chinese cities have a lot of immigrants from other provinces, come for opportunities. They are ‘waishengren’. Usage in Taiwan I agree that there is no good English-language eqivalent. ‘Mainlander’ seems to be the most common, but htis is stupid because 1. Mainlander should mean someone either on the mainland (that would be a PRC citizen) or from the mainland (in which case why differentiate based on whether they came here 50 or 200 years ago). 2. There’s a lot of assupmtions going into calling China the ‘Mainalnd’ in the first place. 49ers seems to be used sometimes. It is specific on those that came over with the KMT. But it doesn’t seem to include their children and grandchildren. Well, it’s a problematic word in Chinese anyway: 1. Should we still consider Taiwan a 'sheng" (province)? 2. If the word is supposed to mean those born in a different ‘province’, why keep using it to refer to those who were born here, but whose grandparents were born in a different province. The sooner Taiwanese get over the waishengren.benshengren distinction the better. Brian ---
**Author:** ![Chris](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/958977/32.png) [@Chris](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/Chris)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2005, 9:32am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/waishengren/14917/23 "2005-01-18T09:32:57Z")
> [@Bu Lai En](#): > > Incorrect. Waishengren - ‘outside/foreign province person’ is also used in China. For example, my wife is on the phone to someone in Guangdong. They pick up from her accent that she is not form Guangdong, but not that she is from Taiwan. So they ask “Are you waishengren”. So the ‘Guangdongese’ (Cantonese) use it to differentiate between themselves and other Chinese form other provinces. Big Chinese cities have a lot of immigrants from other provinces, come for opportunities. They are ‘waishengren’. In this sense, it’s not much different from the term “out-of-stater” in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_s\_girl](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/d/7c8e57/32.png) [@Dave\_s\_girl](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/Dave_s_girl)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2005, 11:54am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/waishengren/14917/24 "2005-01-18T11:54:23Z")
> [@Loretta](#): > > [quote=“Dave’s girl”]But personally I find it really odd that there is not an official English ‘waishengren’ term. What word do writers of TaipeiTimes, say, use when they write stories on the animosity between ‘waishengren’ and ‘benshengren’? Anyone? Are there Chinese terms for words like ‘scouser’, ‘geordie’, or ‘cockney’? Or is that comparing different things?[/quote] Yes, there are Chinese terms except for Geordie–people who were born near the Tyne river. This is what I found on yahoo: Scouser: 利物浦人 Geordie: 泰恩(Tyne)河沿岸出生的人 cockney: 倫敦佬 In a way, it is comparing different things. Because here you’re being very location-specific whereas waishengren is not. In Taiwan, waishengrens are almost always referred to people who came with KMT. For mainlanders, you have daluren. Tetsuo got it right. In a broader sense though i.e. in Chinese-speaking world, waishengren is like Chris said out-of-staters. ---
**Author:** ![Tetsuo](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Tetsuo](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/Tetsuo)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2005, 1:30pm UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/waishengren/14917/25 "2005-01-18T13:30:15Z")
[quote=“Dave’s girl”]Scouser: 利物浦人 Geordie: 泰恩(Tyne)河沿岸出生的人 cockney: 倫敦佬 [/quote] Wrong. Whilst technically correct, they convey different ideas. Saying someone’s from Liverpool is different to calling them a Scouser. There’s a different connotation there, just as there’s a different connotation to calling someone “benshengren” or “Taiwanese” (in the broader sense, not the political sense. As in “someone from Taiwan” not as in “descendant of a pre-1949 Taiwanese family”). ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_s\_girl](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/d/7c8e57/32.png) [@Dave\_s\_girl](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/Dave_s_girl)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2005, 5:14pm UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/waishengren/14917/26 "2005-01-18T17:14:26Z")
Well, I found them on the yahoo dictionary. I don’t know what to tell ya. So what exactly is Scouser, anyway? I looked it up on Merriam-Webster online dictionary and it says: “a native or inhabitant of Liverpool, England.”, which is exactly what it says in Chinese, too, So…I don’t understand. What do you think should be the Chinese term for Scouser then? ---
**Author:** ![ironlady](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/i/d2c977/32.png) [@ironlady](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/ironlady)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2005, 10:05pm UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/waishengren/14917/27 "2005-01-18T22:05:45Z")
“Waishengren” could be more like “Johnny-come-lately” or “carpetbagger”, depending on whom you ask, I guess… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![TaiOanKok](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/t/f04885/32.png) [@TaiOanKok](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/TaiOanKok)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 12:02am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/waishengren/14917/28 "2005-01-19T00:02:50Z")
[quote=“Bu Lai En”]I agree that there is no good English-language eqivalent. ‘Mainlander’ seems to be the most common[/quote] That’s also my observation. One of the interesting things I noticed in Taipei was that when you asked if someone could speak Holo Taiwaese, you normally got one of two responses: “Just a little, not really.” or “I’m Taiwanese [我是台灣人]．” I found this rather interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Tetsuo](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Tetsuo](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/Tetsuo)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 5:02pm UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/waishengren/14917/29 "2005-01-19T17:02:50Z")
> [@Dave's girl](#): > > Well, I found them on the yahoo dictionary. I don’t know what to tell ya. So what exactly is Scouser, anyway? I looked it up on Merriam-Webster online dictionary and it says: “a native or inhabitant of Liverpool, England.”, which is exactly what it says in Chinese, too, So…I don’t understand. Like I said, technically it’s correct, and as far as a dictionary definition goes, yes, it’s right. But by that same token, waishengren should just be “person from out of the province”. But it’s not, right? It means more than it’s direct definition. You’d have to ask an Englishman the precise connotations, but there’s a change in tone between saying someone’s a Scouser and saying someone’s from Liverpool. > [@](#): > > What do you think should be the Chinese term for Scouser then? I don’t know. What should the English for waishengren be? ---
**Author:** ![rice\_t](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/r/a9adbd/32.png) [@rice\_t](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/rice_t)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 3:11am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/waishengren/14917/30 "2005-01-20T03:11:02Z")
It is impossible to translate Scouser unless the audience knows the difference between Scouser and person from Liverpool already. The same applies for waishengren. One option is sikaosiren and waishengren ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_s\_girl](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/d/7c8e57/32.png) [@Dave\_s\_girl](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/Dave_s_girl)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 5:49am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/waishengren/14917/31 "2005-01-20T05:49:14Z")
> [@Tetsuo](#): > > [quote=“Dave’s girl”]Well, I found them on the yahoo dictionary. I don’t know what to tell ya. So what exactly is Scouser, anyway? I looked it up on Merriam-Webster online dictionary and it says: “a native or inhabitant of Liverpool, England.”, which is exactly what it says in Chinese, too, So…I don’t understand. Like I said, technically it’s correct, and as far as a dictionary definition goes, yes, it’s right. But by that same token, waishengren should just be “person from out of the province”. But it’s not, right? It means more than it’s direct definition. You’d have to ask an Englishman the precise connotations, but there’s a change in tone between saying someone’s a Scouser and saying someone’s from Liverpool.[/quote] Are you saying the word ‘wrong’ in your post is inappropriate then? And perhaps uncalled for? Your points are still there without words such ‘wrong’ and ‘rubbish’. In fact, those words just cloud your points and might possibly result in other posters responding to your comments offensively. Just a suggestion. > [@](#): > > [quote]What do you think should be the Chinese term for Scouser then? I don’t know. What should the English for waishengren be?[/quote] Out-of staters I’d say. Unless you’re talking about those in Taiwan then you need to be more specific and make sure you’re clear about which group of people you’re referring to–those that came with KMT some 50 years ago or the ones that are indeed from Mainland. ---
**Author:** ![HansG](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@HansG](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/HansG)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 7:06am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/waishengren/14917/32 "2005-01-21T07:06:17Z")
waishengren should just mean chinese. There is a reason you hear 台灣人 and not 本省人。Because that is how people identify themselves. As Taiwanese and non-taiwanese. And those non-taiwanese are waishengren. Cut it how you may, by saying people are of this or that decent, but if we go back, aren’t we all of african decent ? ---
**Author:** ![Tetsuo](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Tetsuo](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/Tetsuo)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 7:15am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/waishengren/14917/33 "2005-01-21T07:15:21Z")
> [@Dave's girl](#): > > [quote=“Tetsuo”][quote=“Dave’s girl”]Well, I found them on the yahoo dictionary. I don’t know what to tell ya. So what exactly is Scouser, anyway? I looked it up on Merriam-Webster online dictionary and it says: “a native or inhabitant of Liverpool, England.”, which is exactly what it says in Chinese, too, So…I don’t understand. Like I said, technically it’s correct, and as far as a dictionary definition goes, yes, it’s right. But by that same token, waishengren should just be “person from out of the province”. But it’s not, right? It means more than it’s direct definition. You’d have to ask an Englishman the precise connotations, but there’s a change in tone between saying someone’s a Scouser and saying someone’s from Liverpool.[/quote] Are you saying the word ‘wrong’ in your post is inappropriate then? And perhaps uncalled for? Your points are still there without words such ‘wrong’ and ‘rubbish’. In fact, those words just cloud your points and might possibly result in other posters responding to your comments offensively. Just a suggestion.[/quote] Get off your high horse. I said they were “technically right” even in the first post responding to you. But they’re still wrong in that while they are correct definitions they’re not correct translations. And “wrong” doesn’t cloud things when I’m saying you are incorrect. Stop looking for ways to be the victim. > [@](#): > > [quote][quote]What do you think should be the Chinese term for Scouser then? I don’t know. What should the English for waishengren be?[/quote] Out-of staters I’d say. Unless you’re talking about those in Taiwan then you need to be more specific and make sure you’re clear about which group of people you’re referring to–those that came with KMT some 50 years ago or the ones that are indeed from Mainland.[/quote] Exactly. That’s my point. That’s the point of this whole thread. You can’t have a catch-all translation for waishengren because of the cultural and contextual difficulties inherent in the word. And “out of stater” would be wrong in a Chinese context because China isn’t made up of states but provinces. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_s\_girl](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/d/7c8e57/32.png) [@Dave\_s\_girl](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/Dave_s_girl)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2005, 7:51pm UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/waishengren/14917/34 "2005-01-23T19:51:17Z")
> [@Tetsuo](#): > > Stop looking for ways to be the victim. I just like it when we fight. It turns me on. :bouncy: > [@](#): > > And “out of stater” would be wrong in a Chinese context because China isn’t made up of states but provinces. How does “out-of-provincer” sound to you? :bouncy: ---
**Author:** ![yonglan](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/y/cdc98d/32.png) [@yonglan](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/yonglan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2005, 1:36am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/waishengren/14917/35 "2005-06-08T01:36:41Z")
[quote=“chris”][quote]Bu Lai En wrote: Incorrect. Waishengren - ‘outside/foreign province person’ is also used in China. For example, my wife is on the phone to someone in Guangdong. They pick up from her accent that she is not form Guangdong, but not that she is from Taiwan. So they ask “Are you waishengren”. So the ‘Guangdongese’ (Cantonese) use it to differentiate between themselves and other Chinese form other provinces. Big Chinese cities have a lot of immigrants from other provinces, come for opportunities. They are ‘waishengren’.[/quote] In this sense, it’s not much different from the term “out-of-stater” in the US.[/quote] For China, yes, basically (though it’s not just for migrant workers). For Taiwan, of course not. I’ve always used the term mainlander and that’s all I’ve ever heard. Of course, as many have already bought the farm and many already have grand kids and some great grand kids, at this point it is a bit more problematic. I would agree with porcelainprincess (if that’s who it was) that waishengren with an explanation may be best. By the way, how did this thread start off as a quote within a quote? ---
**Author:** ![rice\_t](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/r/a9adbd/32.png) [@rice\_t](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/rice_t)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2005, 3:16am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/waishengren/14917/36 "2005-06-08T03:16:43Z")
What about "second- (third)generation mainlanders? ---
**Author:** ![Bu\_Lai\_En](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/dc4da7/32.png) [@Bu\_Lai\_En](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/Bu_Lai_En)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2005, 5:34am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/waishengren/14917/37 "2005-06-08T05:34:15Z")
> [@](#): > > What about "second- (third)generation mainlanders? Then why not call the ‘Taiwanese’ (Hoklo) “4th (or 5th, 6th, 7th) geneeration mainalanders”? Nope, the terms ‘waishengren’ amd ‘mainlander’ are just ludicrously outdated, inaccurate and divisive. Brian ---
**Author:** ![yonglan](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/y/cdc98d/32.png) [@yonglan](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/yonglan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 11:10am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/waishengren/14917/38 "2005-06-09T11:10:35Z")
I would agree with you, Brian, but all the mainlanders (and their descendants – and I’ve always heard them referred to as mainlanders as well) I’ve known are forever complaining about Taiwan. I’m quite certain there are mainlanders who don’t give a poop about being a mainlander and think Taiwan is the cat’s meow – I just never met any in two and half years on the island. ---
**Author:** ![alidarbac](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/a/e68b1a/32.png) [@alidarbac](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/alidarbac)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2005, 8:29am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/waishengren/14917/39 "2005-06-11T08:29:27Z")
I was flipping through a book about 台灣正名 today and they pointed out some interesting inconsistencies about the word 外省人. For instance, isn’t someone from Jinmen technically a 外省人? And of course, the very term 外省 implies that Taiwan is merely a province. Anyhoo, they proposed that 新住民 be used instead of 外省人. Then again, this book was also offended by the term 台客 because they considered it demeaning to Taiwanese culture, so I don’t know how much stock you should take in it. ---
**Author:** ![zhujianlun](https://forumosa-12829.kxcdn.com/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/z/dbc845/32.png) [@zhujianlun](https://tw.forumosa.com/u/zhujianlun)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2005, 3:06am UTC](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/waishengren/14917/40 "2005-06-12T03:06:57Z")
> [@alidarbac](#): > > For instance, isn’t someone from Jinmen technically a ??? And of course, the very term ?? implies that Taiwan is merely a province. Anyhoo, they proposed that ??? be used instead of ???. Kinmen is hardly relevant to the fuss over the term, which involves waishengren who are settled in Taiwan proper [Previous page](https://tw.forumosa.com/t/waishengren/14917.md?page=1)