Wall Street English

Had a rather frustrating experience that I’d like others’ takes on. Have just recently arrived in Taipei and was down by Taipei Main Station trying (in vain it turns out) to convince China Telecom to give me a number without my having to first wait for my ARC to come through – argh – when I decided to wander into Wall Street English. Went halfway through their application form when it became apparent that they expected a brief essay and list of previous employers, etc. Well, I wouldn’t mind providing this information, but I figured before I spent 20 minutes doing it I might first ask what the job conditions were like. After all, if the average teacher made NT$500 per hour and worked only 10 hours per week, why bother? Well – gaisi – neither politeness nor rudeness (nor my bad Chinese version of either) could elicit anything but ‘You’ll have to fill out the form and wait for the manager to contact you’. They weren’t even willing to tell me what I could expect as minimum wage or hours. Even the white fellow at the end of the counter toed the company line and refused to tell me anything – and good for him, I would’ve done the same in his shoes, though to be on the other end is d@mn frustrating!

Is this the norm for name-brand schools here? That English teachers are expected to scrape and shuffle and apply for a job before being told what that job involves? Ridiculous! And the worst was their refusal to let me leave the building with the application form when it became aparent that I had no interested in working there. Shrug. I’m just blown away at how silly it was. (Not to mention disapointed that I’m now going to have to be careful and crafty with every other school I walk into.)

‘Yes, I’d like to buy a new phone; can I do that here?’
‘Sure. Take a look at these models.’
‘Hmmm … okay, how much does this one cost?’
‘Sorry, I can’t tell you that until you buy it.’
‘What?’ :frowning:

welcome to taiwan!

schools in general look down on english teachers, so be prepared to be treated badly. chinese bosses here are stupid, mean, and above all, CHEAP! You are right to ask about working conditions first, since chinese bosses would love to make you work for hours on end at pennies a day, if they had it their way…

hang in there brother :sunglasses:

Yeah, that’s odd.

I guess that they just don’t want to tell, but why?

I mean if the wages were that good, they’d have their pick of teachers lining up, wouldn’t they?

My guess, their salary is barely average, but they don’t tell you until you almost certainly can’t back out…

Wonder what their retention rate is like?

Kenneth

PS, have you ever seen a job ad for them?

I’ve been to several interviews in the past month-and-a-half and not one school refused to tell me the hourly wage. The problem I’ve encountered is that they can never seem to give me a confirmed schedule before handing me a pen to sign the contract. Wall Street English sounds pretty lame. You were right to walk away. Keep trying, you’ll find something better.

[quote=“ar-grp”]welcome to taiwan!

schools in general look down on english teachers, so be prepared to be treated badly. chinese bosses here are stupid, mean, and above all, CHEAP! You are right to ask about working conditions first, since chinese bosses would love to make you work for hours on end at pennies a day, if they had it their way…

[/quote]

Anyone else notice the sweeping generalizations here? Grow up.

My experience has been similar to Working Vacation’s. Credible schools will explain the hourly rate to you before you get very far into the process, usually at the first contact. Example: When I first arrived, I interviewed at thirteen different schools. Every one of them told me what the hourly wage was, and how many hours I’d be working. If one of them hadn’t, I would have ended the discussion post-haste.

I’ve had no problem with schools telling me the hourly rate in the interview. What I’ve found amazing is that the secretaries are sworn to secrecry – or so their Chinese gossip reveals – and the few schools I’ve visited thus far (Wall Street, David’s, a few non-brand-names) seem to want me to fill in what they’re calling a ‘resume’ before granting me the interview. Shrug. Oh, well; no doubt it’s justified … and I’m getting meaner … umm, I mean, more professional!

Some of these people need to understand that it’s a sellers market right now.

We, the teachers, don’t seem to have to look too hard to find a job. They, the schools, seem to be always looking for teachers. If they made more effort to market themselves honestly then maybe they would find it easier to find staff.

Personally, I’m not prepared to take the time to fill in any application form until I know a lot about the job. I want to know if the job is worth applying for first, and if an employer can’t provide basic information in advance then I’m not going to give him the respect he can’t give to me.

TO TOMAS

Pls don’t tell posters to “grow up”. Who the heck are you to do that?

So you mean to tell me that the english school bosses are NOT Cheap? So I guess your english school boss is paying you at LEAST NT$1,000 per hour??? If not, then why not?

:sunglasses:

As an employer, I’d want to know more about you (the product) before I would make an offer to purchase said product.

Sure, Alleycat. I’ve not approached any interviews with the idea that they want me bad enough that manners don’t manner and I don’t have to market myself, and am anyway more than willing to fill out forms and whatnot. But … before I bother to market my product, I want to know how the buyer’s needs and budget shape up. Is the job going to be a comfortable fit for all involved? Can they afford my product? Or is it perhaps too shoddy for their needs? Shrug. I don’t understand why prospective employers are so reticent when it comes to basic facts-- though from the rather low wages I’ve been offered from the most bureaucratic of folks, I imagine it’s a strategy to stop the would-be teacher from walking out!

(Of course, if you’re looking for another teacher who’s planning on staying a few years, who has two years experience teaching adults TOEFL and conversation (in Canada and the PRC), and who has previously lived in Taiwan and speaks conversational Chinese, send me a PM and I’ve be happy to give you the scoop. NT800+, ARC.)

Yes, but you should at least be able to give a ballpark range to avoid wasting everyone’s time. You know what your budget is and you know what skill sets you’re looking for. But then again, I wouldn’t necessarily expect the receptionist to have that information.

Im not a recruiter, nor do I teach, but I still know what the ballpark hourly rate for an English teacher is. And I’m sure just about everyone else knows this, too.

We often complain of unprofessional bushiban owners, yet we expect to walk into their offices expecting them to blurt out what we’d be making straight, without even properly introducing ourselves.

Act like a day laborer, and you’ll be treated like one!

the hourly rate is 550 - taxable.

[quote=“ar-grp”]TO TOMAS

Pls don’t tell posters to “grow up”. Who the heck are you to do that?

So you mean to tell me that the english school bosses are NOT Cheap? So I guess your english school boss is paying you at LEAST NT$1,000 per hour??? If not, then why not?

8-)[/quote]

You’re the only one I’ve ever told to grow up. Perhaps “wake up” would be more appropriate. Posting unsupportable and ill-informed assertions like “chinese (sic) bosses here are stupid, mean, and above all, CHEAP!”, is childish and narrow-minded. It is also off the mark.

If you come to Taiwan with a bachelor’s degree and no teaching experience, you should expect to make the going wage for inexperienced teachers, which is between NT$400 and NT$600 per hour.

I’m sure as hell not going to be goaded into posting my salary online, but I will point out to you that jobs that pay over NT$1000 an hour require an educational background, a work history in the business, and a willingness to work that few people have. I know exactly where these jobs are, but I’m not going to tell someone who is obviously ill-suited for such a job.

NT$1,000 is a higher hourly wage than that paid to most ESL and test preparation instructors in the United States. I know, because I was one, and later worked as the director of three American-style buxibans in the States. Starting wages were US$15 per hour, about NT$520. That was only a few years ago, and instructors had to hold master’s degrees and have teaching experience. So, exactly how are buxiban owners who pay a wage similar to that paid in the United States for lesser qualified instructors "cheap? "I’m not even going to address the “stupid, mean” comments. They aren’t valid enough to deserve an answer.

I am the person described as

Thanks for your perspective. Again, let me say that I didn’t intend to disparage WSI in any way. In retrospect I realise that I may have had the wrong idea. I had assumed teaching English in Taiwan was more or less like working in McDonald’s, where all the cashiers can tell you what you can expect to make, and not something more … respectable? I also assumed that most chain-schools would have a fixed pay scale and set hours. Maybe this perspective is a little crude, but it has proven more or less correct for most of the schools I’ve walked into (though I will admit that WSI was the first school I visited and that I’ve since taken up a more diplomatic and patient approach).

As for showing off my Chinese, I think you’ve got the wrong idea there. I felt at the time that I was being fed a lot of polite nonsense in English while the staff openly discussed me in Chinese. I was hoping a little code switching might get me some straight answers, or at least encourage the staff behave professionally in both languages. If this was all poorly done, my apologies. I was rather affronted at the time with treatment I’ve since come to see is par for the course.

[quote=“00Scott”]I had assumed teaching English in Taiwan was more or less like working in McDonald’s, where all the cashiers can tell you what you can expect to make, and not something more … respectable? I also assumed that most chain-schools would have a fixed pay scale and set hours. Maybe this perspective is a little crude, but it has proven more or less correct for most of the schools I’ve walked into (though I will admit that WSI was the first school I visited and that I’ve since taken up a more diplomatic and patient approach).

As for showing off my Chinese, I think you’ve got the wrong idea there. I felt at the time that I was being fed a lot of polite nonsense in English while the staff openly discussed me in Chinese. I was hoping a little code switching might get me some straight answers, or at least encourage the staff behave professionally in both languages. If this was all poorly done, my apologies. I was rather affronted at the time with treatment I’ve since come to see is par for the course.[/quote]

I can remember a time when I, about 10 years ago, would walk to bushibans in a t-shirt and bicycle shorts and almost get hired on the spot. In fact, I turned down a job once because the head foreign teacher there had the nerve to actually sit me down and interview me. It seems teachers and bushiban staffers take their jobs a little more seriously these days, but what I don’t understand is why hourly teacher wages have barely risen in a decade.

00Scott, you weren’t wrong to assume English teaching was like working at McDonald’s, you just had the misfortune of walking into a school that caters to a higher-end clientele and is a little more with-it in marketing than your average school. You should also see some red flags in work places you notice it seems people are sworn to secrecy. (Unless its something like the military or defense industry, but a bushiban in a developing country?)

I am sure WS is a great place to learn and work. The decor is an impressive, brilliant marketing plan that screams “Yuppie come learn here” and I assume the place is devoid of sweaty children and the street food they bring in between classes–another plus in my book.

I disagree with Mr. Wall Street Counter Man, however, on some things. If you get a friendly counter person, or a naive “hsio jie” you probably can ask how much to expect, although not in a loud tone. (I agree most counterpeople wouldn’t give you an exact amount.)
Mr. Wall Street’s counterstaff is probably repeatedly coached to not divulge any salary info, and certainly the school’s all-glass-wall set up does not afford much secrecy. You made the girls nervous when you started speaking Chinese. Judging from the school’s success, Mr. WS Boss is an experienced, savvy person in the bushiban biz and knows how to keep from being had by Mr. Foreigner.

I also disagree that the ability to speak Chinese would somehow hamper your chances of getting an English teaching job. In fact, the schools I worked for welcomed my ability to smoothly communicate with the staff and that I would be able to handle myself should the Chinese aide call in sick. Speak casually to a group of kids in Chinese and they are thrilled silly by it. In fact, if anything, it will help you bargain on work conditions and keep you from getting scammed.

Sorry, White Fellow, but a guy asking about a job at your school to the counterstaff is administrative-related, and has no effect on this guy’s or your school’s ability to provide an English environment.

And there is nothing rude about a foreigner speaking the national language of the Republic of China to a citizen of the Republic of China while in the Republic of China, especially when you are being fed a “lot of polite nonsense”. 00Scott’s right – true professionals would act professional in both languages. Tell your boss to add that to the Secret Rule Book Foreigners Can’t See behind the counter. In fact, a lot of the crap I got from other White Staffers at English schools in the past was just because I could speak Chinese and they couldn’t.

I can understand having to introduce yourself and fill out an application or hand in a resume, that’s fair, but an essay? An essay? An essay for a job in a bushiban in a developing country where foreigners are, due to the laws of supply and demand, a commodity? And please teachers, insist on doing your own taxes. Don’t let schools “take care of it for you.”

It’s all right.

I have always wondered about the way schools, not just Wall Street, will not divulge salaries. What are they hiding?

I would assume, judging from the number of my (naive) English-teaching friends who are never allowed TO FILE THEIR OWN TAXES by their nice, “we’ll take care of it for you” bosses, it is for creative accounting reasons, and that they don’t want other schools to find out how much they pay.
It is a bit odd, Wolf, considering it is a seller’s market.