That’s like saying slave traders were instrumental in making America a more racially equal society it is today.
why do they have to change their party? I thought it’s a democracy, and people can work within a party to make it better suit the need of the people. 
[/quote]
You’re absolutely right. I myself am a registered independent here in the States.
That’s like saying slave traders were instrumental in making America a more racially equal society it is today.[/quote]
You’re going to have to help me with this analogy.
That’s like saying slave traders were instrumental in making America a more racially equal society it is today.[/quote]
You’re going to have to help me with this analogy.[/quote]
Slave traders → increased racial inequality ≠ making America a more racially equal society
Blues → suppress democracy ≠ making Taiwan a vibrant democracy
KMT were the ones who suppressed Taiwan’s vibrant post war democracy in the first place. Without the KMT, the USMG would be more than a trustee in name only, and Taiwan may get a chance to hold a self-determination referendum, like Palau. At least the Americans wouldn’t see the need to conduct massacres of Taiwan elites.
What I mean to say is, you’re going to have to help me with the “blues made Taiwan a vibrant democracy” conclusion. Especially since you don’t consider LTH or WJP to be blues.
The ROC was part of the Allied Powers that liberated Taiwan from Imperial Japan. Without the efforts of the USA and ROC, Taiwan would not be a democracy.
Taiwan had its own home grown political parties in the 1920s. They were suppressed of course when the military overtook the government but there is no reason to think Taiwan would have become democratic without the “support” of the KMT post-WWII.
The PRC would unlikely have paid much attention had it become a UN protectorate.
You are stretching credulity by saying that because the KMT arrived in Taiwan in 1945 and Taiwan became a democracy in 1996, then there must be a straight and clear line between the two.
Taiwan had its own home grown political parties in the 1920s. They were suppressed of course when the military overtook the government but there is no reason to think Taiwan would have become democratic without the “support” of the KMT post-WWII.
The PRC would unlikely have paid much attention had it become a UN protectorate.
You are stretching credulity by saying that because the KMT arrived in Taiwan in 1945 and Taiwan became a democracy in 1996, then there must be a straight and clear line between the two.[/quote]
I just realized he is not talking about what the KMT did to make Taiwan more democratic in the first place. He is back to the “Taiwanese should be grateful for CKS and the KMT winning the Pacific War” discourse.
Taiwan had its own home grown political parties in the 1920s. They were suppressed of course when the military overtook the government but there is no reason to think Taiwan would have become democratic without the “support” of the KMT post-WWII.
The PRC would unlikely have paid much attention had it become a UN protectorate.
You are stretching credulity by saying that because the KMT arrived in Taiwan in 1945 and Taiwan became a democracy in 1996, then there must be a straight and clear line between the two.[/quote]
What about Imperial Japan makes you think Taiwan would be a democracy today had the Japanese won WWII?
Taiwan had its own home grown political parties in the 1920s. They were suppressed of course when the military overtook the government but there is no reason to think Taiwan would have become democratic without the “support” of the KMT post-WWII.
The PRC would unlikely have paid much attention had it become a UN protectorate.
You are stretching credulity by saying that because the KMT arrived in Taiwan in 1945 and Taiwan became a democracy in 1996, then there must be a straight and clear line between the two.[/quote]
I just realized he is not talking about what the KMT did to make Taiwan more democratic in the first place. He is back to the “Taiwanese should be grateful for CKS and the KMT winning the Pacific War” discourse.[/quote]
Taiwan should be grateful that the Allied Powers won WWII instead of the Axis Powers.
Taiwan local election 1935.
Nothing. There, just lit your strawman on fire, though I’m sure you have plenty more where that came from. 
No one is assuming anything about Japan winning the war. It’s great that the American led allies were able to defeat Japan in the Pacific. However, that doesn’t mean it was KMT who made Taiwan a democracy.
Before the IJA took over every single function of the Japanese government, Japan was starting to give the Taiwanese more liberties, such as voting. Japan was the first colonials who held open elections in Taiwan. The first one happened back in 1935, and the second one in 1939. The poster, taken from the National Taiwan History Museum, was from the 1939 election. Unfortunately only half of the representatives were elected, and the other half were appointed. It was the first elections here in Taiwan nonetheless.
In the first election, the 51% of the city council members were Japanese, 49% were Taiwanese. For the township and villages council, 8% were Japanese, 92% were Taiwanese.
Fabulous Poster. Local council election, Taiwan, 1930s.
Nothing. There, just lit your strawman on fire, though I’m sure you have plenty more where that came from. [/quote]
Please describe this strawman for me. The proof that I bring to the table is the free and open democracy that Taiwan is today.
[quote=“hansioux”]
No one is assuming anything about Japan winning the war. It’s great that the American led allies were able to defeat Japan in the Pacific. However, that doesn’t mean it was KMT who made Taiwan a democracy.
Before the IJA took over every single function of the Japanese government, Japan was starting to give the Taiwanese more liberties, such as voting. Japan was the first colonials who held open elections in Taiwan. The first one happened back in 1935, and the second one in 1939. The poster, taken from the National Taiwan History Museum, was from the 1939 election. Unfortunately only half of the representatives were elected, and the other half were appointed. It was the first elections here in Taiwan nonetheless.
In the first election, the 51% of the city council members were Japanese, 49% were Taiwanese. For the township and villages council, 8% were Japanese, 92% were Taiwanese.[/quote]
Am I incorrect in suggesting that you think Japan, had they won WWII, would have moved towards democracy?
Actually I don’t think it’s great.
I’m not bitter that Japan lost. But Taiwan was already part of Japan long before ww2, and fought together as a nation in ww2. US and China were enemies of Taiwan.
Nothing. There, just lit your strawman on fire, though I’m sure you have plenty more where that came from. [/quote]
Please describe this strawman for me. The proof that I bring to the table is the free and open democracy that Taiwan is today.[/quote]
Japan is a free and open democracy today too. Just as Imperial Japan planned and prepared for all along, right?
Actually I don’t think it’s great.
I’m not bitter that Japan lost. But Taiwan was already part of Japan long before ww2, and fought together as a nation in ww2. US and China were enemies of Taiwan.[/quote]
Had Japan won WW2, the radicals in the IJA would have thought it meant their invasions and brutal suppression of freedoms both within Japan and especially abroad were the correct course to success. That was a group of people who would kill and murder anyone that disagreed with them, including their own emperor even. There’s no way anyone would have come out better down that NAZI-IJA-won-it-all road. Not that Japan had it in them to win the war after Midway anyway.
Nothing. There, just lit your strawman on fire, though I’m sure you have plenty more where that came from. [/quote]
Please describe this strawman for me. The proof that I bring to the table is the free and open democracy that Taiwan is today.[/quote]
Japan is a free and open democracy today too. Just as Imperial Japan planned and prepared for all along, right?[/quote]
Right. Because the Allied Powers kicked their butts. The Japanese enjoy freedom and democracy today due in part to the efforts of the Republic of China. Japan and Taiwan both owe the ROC a debt for the free and democratic societies they have today.
[quote=“Dirt”]
Right. Because the Allied Powers kicked their butts. The Japanese enjoy freedom and democracy today due in part to the efforts of the Republic of China. Japan and Taiwan both owe the ROC a debt for the free and democratic societies they have today.[/quote]
[quote=“Gain”][quote=“Dirt”]
Right. Because the Allied Powers kicked their butts. The Japanese enjoy freedom and democracy today due in part to the efforts of the Republic of China. Japan and Taiwan both owe the ROC a debt for the free and democratic societies they have today.[/quote]
[/quote]
14 million citizens of the Republic of China died fighting Imperial Japan for the ROC’s and the rest of Asia’s freedom. We just brought some of those brave soldiers back from Myanmar and gave them the burial they earned.