War criminal side chatter

Politics International Politics
1

[quote=“Jaboney”][quote=“Dr. McCoy”]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6Y_ncOVlDw
World leaders won’t shake Bush’s hand. Sad.[/quote]
Would you shake hands with a war criminal?
To be fair, that report seems to be inaccurate. The anchor said he googled “Bush” + “bully” and got 2.5 million hits. I tried the same and got 6.5 million hits. Besides, in the video, he’s not even reaching out to shake hands.[/quote]

＂This time over Iraq, I don’t like the company I am keeping, but I think they are right on the issue"–Michael Ignatieff

So you disagree with Ignatieff (although he has changed his mind recently for political reasons, but the more I read about this guy, the more I like him. He even supported Thatcher in the 80s :bravo: ) and Harper in their longstanding support of Bush? That puts you in real good company with the mainstream :smiley: parties (Federal NDP and Green Party). Parties that just love to use the “war criminal” label quite loosely IMHO, including on many Israeli politicians. But hey, they just care about the environment, right?

2

Of course: he was wrong.
And some Israeli politicians are war criminals. Ariel Sharon, for one. (Not that he’s around any longer.)
However others may employ the “war criminal” label, there’s nothing loose in my application of it.

3

[quote=“Jaboney”]
And some Israeli politicians are war criminals. Ariel Sharon, for one. (Not that he’s around any longer.)
However others may employ the “war criminal” label, there’s nothing loose in my application of it.[/quote]

Sharon, a war criminal? According to who? European socialists and green party members that wear Che shirts and still talk about Danny the Red in '68? Social Democratic Federal NDP members and their looney tune supporters?

Definitely not mainstream thinkers and parties in Canada and the US. People can agree to disagree on policy without resorting to campus-like sort of namecalling. Sharon is held in high regard by most Israelis, even by people on the left. When I was in grad school in London, there were lots of Israelis in my post-grad class on the Arab-Israeli dispute. Most were Shimon Peres/Yossi Beilin type of Labour supporters. All of them had tremendous respect for Sharon as a military figure while perhaps not backing him at the time as a Likud politician (although I’m sure they did when he was Kadima). Again, I would say most of the people that call/have called Bush and Sharon war criminals are from the very far left of the political spectrum and their opinions should be treated as being “fringe opinions” IMHO.

4

Hitler might have retired a loving old geezer. Should we forgive his youthful excesses?

HG

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[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]Hitler might have retired a loving old geezer. Should we forgive his youthful excesses?

HG[/quote]

Weren’t all of his so-called youthful excesses (Qibya etc.) done at the behest of the Labour government of the time? Considering the atrocities carried out by Fedeyeen in '53, I thought Qibya was perfectly justified. His tank fighting in '67 was daring indeed. The atrocities in Lebanon in the early 80s were not carried out by Israelis. They were carried out by Maronite Christians that were pissed off at the PLO for murdering their leader. Sharon is rightly revered by people on the left and right in Israel as being a warrior that protected them during the state’s infancy and during times of war. If people on Forumosa don’t understand him and label him as a criminal, it is because they’ve lived in suburban and academic bubbles and haven’t had their lives directly impacted by terrorism. If you had a brother or sister lose a limb because of a 12th Century-minded fanatic, then you’d be happy to have a person such as Sharon in your nation’s military. Hell, they don’t make 'em like that any more.

6

Hitchens doesn’t post on Forumosa. And I think if you were honest you would have to accept that there is a considerable number of decent and sound minded people that would have had Sharon’s fat arse hoisted in a noose at the drop of a hat.

But what if you’re brother or sister lost a limb or campfulls of refugee relatives to a fat fascist, war criminal? Who would you want then?

Your blind loyalty to those Israeli officers you shared a joint with as a backpacker is still quite the enigma.

HG

7

[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]

Your blind loyalty to those Israeli officers you shared a joint with as a backpacker is still quite the enigma.

HG[/quote]

If you are calling my grad school (where I got along quite well with hard drinking Scandinavians and blunt Israelis) accomodations a hostel, you’re right in one respect. A good dorm should be one half hostel, one half bordello. :laughing: :smiley: But it was a friggin’ pricey dorm being in WC1. :aiyo:

8

Interesting application of (some form of) a statute of limitations and time off (forgiveness, really) for good behavior.

Curious: why do you not apply the same reasoning to Ted Kennedy? Is vehicular manslaughter so much more serious than wholesale slaughter?

9

Interesting application of (some form of) a statute of limitations and time off (forgiveness, really) for good behavior.

Curious: why do you not apply the same reasoning to Ted Kennedy? Is vehicular manslaughter so much more serious than wholesale slaughter?[/quote]

I think comparing the two is ludicrous. Kennedy’s cowardly actions while drunk after a car accident killed a naieve family political worker for RFK. But Kennedy’s have always treated their workers like horse shit, so should we be surprised at all (compare this to how Sharon treated his Jewish and Palestinian employees at his ranch in the Negev…they loved him).

Sharon’s aggressive actions against a medieval enemy were always brave to the extreme and in response to terrorism. Even a baby learns to remove its hand from a hot stove. Surely, massive retaliation has prevented more attacks than without this military doctrine.

Moshe Dayan constantly applauded Sharon for his iniative. Sure he sometimes pushed the envelope, but that’s what military leaders do. Sharon’s and Tal’s tank fighting in '67 were legendary. On the Arab street, Sharon’s fighting ability is widely respected. It is why his son Omri could travel in the West Bank to meet with PLO members during negotiations without fear of being harmed. Sharon’s military feats are also applauded by most left-wing international Israelis. Why not many Forumosans? Could it be that, like in Europe, the politics represented here are somewhat to the left of the mainstream American, Canadian, Australian, and Israeli parties? Yippers. Me sure thinks so.

10

Interesting application of (some form of) a statute of limitations and time off (forgiveness, really) for good behavior.

Curious: why do you not apply the same reasoning to Ted Kennedy? Is vehicular manslaughter so much more serious than wholesale slaughter?[/quote]

I think comparing the two is ludicrous. . .[/quote]

Indeed . . .

[quote]By noon of September 15th, the Israeli Defence Force (IDF) had completely surrounded the Sabra-Shatila camps, and controlled all entrances and exits by the means of checkpoints. The IDF also occupied a number of multi-story buildings as observation posts. Amongst those was the seven-story Kuwaiti embassy which, according to TIME, had “an unobstructed and panoramic view” of the camps. Hours later, IDF tanks began shelling the camps.

Ariel Sharon and Chief of Staff Rafael Eitan met with the Lebanese Phalangist militia units, inviting them to enter the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps to clean out terrorist nests. Under the Israeli plan, Israeli soldiers would control the perimeters of the refugee camps and provide logistical support while the Phalangists would enter the camps, find the PLO fighters and hand them over to Israeli forces. The meetings concluded at 3:00 p.m. September 16.

An hour later, 1,500 militiamen assembled at Beirut International Airport, then occupied by Israel. Under the command of Elie Hobeika, they began moving towards the camps in IDF supplied Jeeps, following Israeli guidance on how to enter the camps. The forces were mostly Phalangist, though there were some men from Saad Haddad’s “Free Lebanon forces”.

The first unit of 150 Phalangists entered the camps at 6:00 p.m. A battle ensued that at times Palestinians claim involved lining up Palestinians for execution. During the night the Israeli forces fired illuminating flares over the camps. According to a Dutch nurse, the camp was as bright as “a sports stadium during a football game”.

At 11:00 p.m. a report was sent to the IDF headquarters in East Beirut, reporting the killings of 300 people, including civilians. The report was forwarded to headquarters in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, where it was seen by more than 20 senior Israeli officers.

Further reports of these killings followed through the night. Some of these reports were forwarded to the Israeli government in Jerusalem and were seen by a number of Israel’s senior officials.

[b]For the next 36 to 48 hours, the Phalangists massacred the inhabitants of the refugee camps, while the Israeli military guarded the exits and allegedly continued to provide flares by night.

At one point, a militiaman’s radioed question to his commander Hobeika about what to do with the women and children in the refugee camp was overheard by an Israeli officer, who heard Hobeika reply that “This is the last time you’re going to ask me a question like that; you know exactly what to do”. Phalangist troops could be heard laughing in the background. . . .[/b][/quote]

11

Don’t worry about it, Spook, I’m sure he just pushed the envelope a little too far there.

Deftly worded, because MOST Israelis resent the man for having needlessly increased the tension in that country.

You’d best recheck your universe, because the one I live in has turned sharply to the left, leaving you and the Sharons of this world stuck out on a irrelevant right wing rock.

HG

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You’d best recheck your universe, because the one I live in has turned sharply to the left, leaving you and the Sharons of this world stuck out on a irrelevant right wing rock.

HG[/quote]

If Chewy and friends are “mainstream” I’d be interested in whom he identifies to the right of him. Anybody? Last I heard Chewy and friends are so far to the right that they regard even Hitler as a left-winger.

I’m not entirely sure how one could define oneself as ‘mainstream’ when the entire universe is situated to the left. Sounds ludicrous to me but I’m . . . sure . . . there must be a logical explanation.

Normally I’d at least give Chewy credit for a swing and a miss but this one doesn’t even appear to rise to that level.

13

So that’s why they elected him PM by a landslide under the Kadima banner? I’m just telling you of my personal interaction with lots of Israelis. I was surprised at the time that he was admired and respected militarily by a majority of Israeli Labour supporters that were my classmates in grad school in London.

[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]You’d best recheck your universe, because the one I live in has turned sharply to the left, leaving you and the Sharons of this world stuck out on a irrelevant right wing rock.

HG[/quote]

Again, I think that somewhat reflects your somewhat limited understanding of Israeli politics. Towards the end of his life he was smack dab in the middle of the political spectrum in Israel. And, it goes back to what I said before. I think many people on here are so far to the left, that the moderates on this forum are considered extreme by the granola and figs eating crowd. :laughing:

[quote=“spook”]
Last I heard Chewy and friends are so far to the right [/quote]

Ah a little smear here Spook…nice. I support a woman’s right to choose. I support gay marriage. Do you? Let’s talk about Paleo Buchanism isolationism and the far right? :laughing: I’ll be attacking that ideology front and centre. So, to answer your question, I consider you to be a hell of a lot more right wing than me. :smiley: I’m a Scoop Jackson Republican as most of his supporters are these days after moving from the Democrats. Liberal on social issues, moderate on finance, and a hawk on foreign policy. Same as a Joe Lieberman or a James Woolsey type of Democrat. But keep swinging and missing. It’s entertaining to watch radicals on the left and right on Forumosa come at me. :laughing:

Again, read their party platform from the 30s. Very socialist in nature and very “green” in nature. :laughing: Read their name. It has socialist in it, does it not? And, in their greatest election showing, did they not come in a strong #2 because of attracting a huge chunk of SPD voters, who were unhappy with the moderate socialism of that party? If it looks like dog shit and smells like dog shit, it must be dog shit, right? :laughing:

14

Right, just like the German Democratic Republic was a democratic republic. It has democratic republic in it, does it not?

15

Right, just like the German Democratic Republic was a democratic republic. It has democratic republic in it, does it not?[/quote]

Did you read the platform for the '33 election? Didn’t think so.

16

Why should I? I know the Nazis were socialists because it’s in their name. Just like I know the German Democratic Republic was a democratic republic, because it’s in their name. That simple, right?

This has been discussed before. I think the Nazis should be judged by how they governed, not how they campaigned or what their full party name was. Abolishing labor unions, the right to bargain and strike, and implementing a “Charter of Labor” that grants total power to the “leaders of production” (owners and managers) and states that these “leaders” will make all decisions for the employees, are not socialist policies. But wait! Hitler was vegetarian and against smoking! He was a leftist!

17

[quote=“Chewycorns”][quote=“spook”]
Last I heard Chewy and friends are so far to the right [/quote]

Ah a little smear here Spook…nice. I support a woman’s right to choose. I support gay marriage. Do you? Let’s talk about Paleo Buchanism isolationism and the far right? :laughing: I’ll be attacking that ideology front and centre. So, to answer your question, I consider you to be a hell of a lot more right wing than me. :smiley: I’m a Scoop Jackson Republican as most of his supporters are these days after moving from the Democrats. Liberal on social issues, moderate on finance, and a hawk on foreign policy. Same as a Joe Lieberman or a James Woolsey type of Democrat. But keep swinging and missing. It’s entertaining to watch radicals on the left and right on Forumosa come at me. :laughing:[/quote]

My views on abortion are fairly mainstream, considerably more so than your enthusiastic choice for vice-president, Sarah Palin’s. While I believe, as a Catholic, which I believe you are also, that life begins at conception, I recognize that my religious beliefs have no place being forced on others in the form of laws prohibiting abortion during the first six months of pregnancy. I think abortion should be illegal in the late stages of pregnancy though except when the mother’s life is at risk.

As far as gay marriage goes, whom one marries is completely none of my business. If you want to enter into a marital contract with a raccoon, two men and a horse have at it as far as I’m concerned, just so long as all the parties to the marriage are consenting adults.

And last but not least, after considerable reflection, I voted for Barack Obama while I imagine you voted for John McCain and Sarah Palin so I think your efforts to put me to your right on the political spectrum would have to go down as another swing and a miss.

I am curious though, who or what is to the right of the neoconservative movement as represented by the likes of Dick Cheney and Sarah Palin if fascism is leftwards of them and I’m out of contention on a technicality because I voted Democratic this election cycle?

18

[quote=“spook”]

I am curious though, who or what is to the right of the neoconservative movement as represented by the likes of Dick Cheney and Sarah Palin if fascism is leftwards of them and I’m out of contention on a technicality because I voted Democratic this election cycle?[/quote]

Paleoconservatives and Buchananites, many of whom have the same policy viewpoints as yourself. The far right and left often make strange bedfellows, so I’m not surpised in the least that you voted for Obama.

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[quote=“Chewycorns”][quote=“spook”]

I am curious though, who or what is to the right of the neoconservative movement as represented by the likes of Dick Cheney and Sarah Palin if fascism is leftwards of them and I’m out of contention on a technicality because I voted Democratic this election cycle?[/quote]

Paleoconservatives and Buchananites, many of whom have the same policy viewpoints as yourself. The far right and left often make strange bedfellows, so I’m not surpised in the least that you voted for Obama.[/quote]

So the far right supports Obama? That’s not even your usual swing and a miss but more of a blow it out your ass comment like your view that Adolf Hitler is actually a leftist on the strength of the “evidence” that his movement contained the word “Socialist” in its official title. Never mind the fact that the historical record suggests that the real reason was to co-opt and confuse his arch-nemeses of that Depression era, true socialists, long enough to consolidate power and have them eliminated.

Apparently the butcher of Baghdad, Saddam Hussein, is also to the left of you on the political spectrum since the official name of his party was the Arab Socialist Ba’th Party.

I’d say the real reason why you and your fellow right-wingers summarily evicted Hitler from his historic position on the far right side of the political spectrum is because he made for an uncomfortable bed fellow.

As far as Pat Buchanan goes I wasn’t familiar with him as he’s a bit of a minor character politically but after doing some research I highly doubt that he voted for Barack Obama:

[quote]If Barack Obama is not a socialist, he does the best imitation of one I’ve ever seen.

Under his tax plan, the top 5 percent of wage-earners have their income tax rates raised from 35 percent to 40 percent, while the bottom 40 percent of all wage-earners, who pay no income tax, are sent federal checks.

If this is not the socialist redistribution of wealth, what is it?[/quote]-- Pat Buchanan

Sound familiar?

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[quote=“spook”]

So the far right supports Obama? [/quote]

In foreign policy–yes.

Ever read the 1920 Nazi Party platform, cowritten by Hitler, which includes socialized medicine, universal health care, universal education, guaranteed wages, appropriation of the wealth of the rich etc? Sounds socialist to me. :laughing:

Hussein may have murdered leftists to consolidate power when he became president in the late 70s, but there is no doubt he was a socialist. Who has his favourite leader of all time? Stalin. The roots of the Baathist Party? Michel Aflaq. Socialist.