Water, water everywhere. Why no seagull shit?

Visited Turtle Island a couple of weekends ago. Quite interesting, but the entirely vacant cliffscapes pointed up something I’ve been vaguely aware of for some time.

No seabirds here. (well, very few).

In my home waters those cliffs would have been noisy, guano-covered aviaries. I know (now, didn’t before) that there might be a local issue with sulphur springs at Turtle Island, and more generally, maybe these tropic seas are less productive/more polluted/more overfished than Northern European waters, but the difference is so near-absolute as to suggest vacant ecological niches, and I find that puzzling.

I’ve seen a few Cormorants (which are seabirds) , and Herons, Egrets and Black-Faced Spoonbills(esturine waders) working the coast/salt pans. I’ve also seen wee Knot-like waders working the tideline on beaches, but that’s about it.

I don’t get out much though, and havn’t spent much time on the East Coast. Any different over there?

Turtle Island is as East Coast as it gets.

T

I have seen I think ONE gull in Taiwan. and I come form Sydney which is absolutely full of the damn things, so I miss them and have been looking for them too. None here in Okinawa either, for that matter.

I was curious too. This good answer to the question “Why no seagulls in hawaii” appears relevant to Taiwan:

Taiwan has a lot of migratory sea birds however, such as terns and cormorants. Also it is easy to spot various species of egrets, herons, cranes, etc.

[quote=“Mucha Man”]I was curious too. This good answer to the question “Why no seagulls in hawaii” appears relevant to Taiwan:

Taiwan has a lot of migratory sea birds however, such as terns and cormorants. Also it is easy to spot various species of egrets, herons, cranes, etc.[/quote]

Yeh, thought of that, plus Taiwan incinerates rather than landfills, but I don’t really buy it as a full explanation. Plenty of shallow water on the West Coast, there are some cliffs, and gulls have adapted to urban nest sites in, for example, Aberdeen. Like I said, this isn’t “fewer”, its essentially “none”. Plus it isn’t only gulls.

[quote=“Ducked”][quote=“Muzha Man”]I was curious too. This good answer to the question “Why no seagulls in hawaii” appears relevant to Taiwan:

Taiwan has a lot of migratory sea birds however, such as terns and cormorants. Also it is easy to spot various species of egrets, herons, cranes, etc.[/quote]

Yeh, thought of that, plus Taiwan incinerates rather than landfills, but I don’t really buy it as a full explanation. Plenty of shallow water on the West Coast, there are some cliffs, and gulls have adapted to urban nest sites in, for example, Aberdeen. Like I said, this isn’t “fewer”, its essentially “none”. Plus it isn’t only gulls.[/quote]

Okay. Whatever. Forgive me if I’m wrong but I smell an agenda coming on. I’ve quickly checked my Birds of East Asia guide and there appear to be no gull species that have a year round and large habitat in Taiwan. Some winter, some pass through on migration routes, but even then from the maps it is obvious that this is not a prime gull habitat. Most are noted for occasionally being found here (and usually only in winter). That’s it. No conspiracy theories needed. If gulls were once numerous and now have a significantly reduced habitat the guide would say so.

[quote=“Mucha Man”][quote=“Ducked”][quote=“Muzha Man”]I was curious too. This good answer to the question “Why no seagulls in hawaii” appears relevant to Taiwan:

Taiwan has a lot of migratory sea birds however, such as terns and cormorants. Also it is easy to spot various species of egrets, herons, cranes, etc.[/quote]

Yeh, thought of that, plus Taiwan incinerates rather than landfills, but I don’t really buy it as a full explanation. Plenty of shallow water on the West Coast, there are some cliffs, and gulls have adapted to urban nest sites in, for example, Aberdeen. Like I said, this isn’t “fewer”, its essentially “none”. Plus it isn’t only gulls.[/quote]

Okay. Whatever. Forgive me if I’m wrong but I smell an agenda coming on. I’ve quickly checked my Birds of East Asia guide and there appear to be no gull species that have a year round and large habitat in Taiwan. Some winter, some pass through on migration routes, but even then from the maps it is obvious that this is not a prime gull habitat. Most are noted for occasionally being found here (and usually only in winter). That’s it. No conspiracy theories needed. If gulls were once numerous and now have a significantly reduced habitat the guide would say so.[/quote]

OK, You’re wrong, and I forgive you.

I sort-of accept the philosophical position that the way things are doesn’t always need an explanation, its just the way things are, but I’m still a bit puzzled. Like I said, this isn’t only gulls, its most seabirds.

The Northern European pelagic and coastal environment of course differs in many ways from the local one. Most of these differences wont be anthropogenic, and I’d expect them to be sufficient to explain large differences in species makeup and distribution, but this looks like large scale niche vacancy, and I find that puzzling. Where are the local equivalents of the (huge populations of) Guillemots, Razorbills, Puffins, Kittywakes (OK, they’re basically gulls), Gannets etc, etc?

I’d guess your anticipated “agenda” would require an explanation based on human activity, like pollution or overfishing (though describing those as “conspiracy theories” is a bit of a stretch). I don’t expect that’s the case, though they may contribute , and I believe, along with climate change, they’ve been cited to explain population crashes in European waters.

Forced to guess, my best one offhand would be that Northern European waters are, for some reason (perhaps connected with upwelling currents?), simply more productive, but I don’t know.

The answer is obvious to any ocean side resident of Australia, or perhaps the UKe - wouldn’t know, never been and won’t go until I get that pardon from their queen.

There’s simply not enough fish and chip shops in Taiwan to sustain seagulls.

HG

Bingo! and there’s the answer right there!

I haven’t had decent fish and chips for yonks. Thanks for reminding me.

Are they in Mainland China?

There. Fixed that for ya.

The “meat” factor had occurred to me. I discounted it as other meatier species like pigeons do seem to thrive here. Is China different?

By the way, as a patriotic American, I find your new avatar inspiring and uplifting.

I was at Pier 39 today and i ran into a coupla seagulls so I asked if they would kindly ask a few of their buds to fly on over to the wan and buzz y’all over there! :sunglasses:

But…not being Doctor Dolittle , I dont think i got across.

[quote=“Tempo Gain”]The “meat” factor had occurred to me. I discounted it as other meatier species like pigeons do seem to thrive here. Is China different?
[/quote]

Dunno, might be something in that. Seabirds have more restricted (and therefore more vulnerable) nesting/roost sites. Their eggs tend to be more substantial (and therefore more attractive) than pigeon eggs too. Direct human predation wouldn’t necessarily be just a recent effect either.

I asked the head of the Chinese (Taipei) Wild Bird Association and he said that gulls are more temperate birds, and not usually found in heavy numbers in sub-tropical regions such as Taiwan. So they’re here, as I have already shown, just not in the numbers of other areas.

Not the most satisfactory answer (as it doesn’t explain why they aren’t as numerous in sub-tropical regions) but I’ll press that out of him another time. Suffice to say it is natural that gulls aren’t numerous in Taiwan and is not the result of man-made habitat destruction, hunting, lack of fish and chip shops, etc.