Weapons of Mass Destruction

Politics International Politics
21

Could be the vile hangover I’m currently medicating nyself against but Tigerman old egg:

So Sodddom Insane didn’t have a bomb, but was a potential future threat. The Stalinist Disneyland do have bomb(s) and threatened to use them, but the US zaps Soddom’s party coz the threat of him being able to do any nasty retaliatory shit is low?

Bit like spoiling for a punch up and deciding the odds are best with the little bloke in the corner.

More seriously, I do wonder at Saddam’s ability to pose any threat to anyone other than his own people. (I did say I was hungover, yeah?) But, for example, the Australian military don’t perceive the Indonesians as a major threat because they are just too dammned busy keeping their archipeligo together. Soddom was awfully well contained knocking off whoever got on the shitlist of his two lads. Quite similar in many regards.

If the whole deal was about threats, surely they should’ve clobbered the North Koreans (but doing it decently, ie, letting all the woman take refuge in Taiwan before the bomby bits started).

Right, medication’s kicked in . . . to bed

HG

22

Again, being a threat does not justify pre-emitive attack. Nobody disagrees that Saddam should be removed. The issues has always been the means to remove him. Model government… hah!!

This just helped my point. NO SHIT N. Korea has MWD. The question is, what is Bush & Co. doing about it? N. Korea posed way more threat to its neighbors; much more so than Iraq. But what did Bush & Co. do? He pushed around Iraq and left N. Korea along. If he did so to demonstrate what he does when someone does listen to him, then N. Korea sure doesn’t give a damn about it.

Duh!! Thanks for making the point for me.

Now I know what kind of irresponsible people had put Bush & Co in the Whitehouse in the first place.

Enough said.

23

Tigerman,

It’s hard for the nuts to see the shell.

If you can’t see the influences over US foreign policy by Wolfowitz, Perle, Cheney, Rumbles, The American Enterpise Institue, and The Project for A New American Century well … And only 12 years ago these guys’ policy perceptions were considered Lunatic Fringe and not mainstream conservatism. It’s probably not right to call it that now.

Here’s a nice Orwellian quote from your buddy George,

“I don’t need to explain why I say things. That’s the
interesting thing about being the President. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don’t feel like I owe anybody an explanation.” They say power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Hello George…the people…

24

Nice point Fox.

I don’t, as I’ve posted elsewhere. follow US domestic politics too closely - though clearly because of the indefinite impact on the rest of us I should.

In any case, likening the rise of the ultra-right in Australia, one thing constantly amazes me. The term idealogue was spat at anyone from even the vaguest of the left. But fuck me if these bastards presently holding the keys aren’t the most ideologically driven I’ve seen in supposedly advanced democracies. I do mean Bush and Howard and the backroom boys pulling the strings.

[quote]For bureaucratic reasons, we settled on one issue, weapons of mass destruction (as justification for invading Iraq) because it was the one reason everyone could agree on.

Paul Wolfowitz May 28, 2003 [/quote]

Looks like that leaky vessel, HMS Blair’s in for another storm.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s960187.htm

One can retain some optimism:

[quote]Australian Gov’t Rocked by Resignation of Anti-War Official
by Bob Burton

CANBERRA - The Australian government has been stunned by the resignation of one of its senior intelligence analysts who argues that, based on U.S. and other intelligence information he has seen, there is currently no justification for a war on Iraq.

''I’m convinced a war against Iraq at this time would be wrong. For a start, Iraq does not pose a security threat to the U.S., or to the U.K. or Australia, or to any other country, at this point in time, former Office of National Assessments intelligence analyst Andrew Wilkie said, announcing his resignation late on Wednesday evening. . . .

. . . Three years ago, Wilkie, the 41-year-old career military officer, was seconded to the Office of National Assessments, which prepares briefings for the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet from a wide range of intelligence sources.

. . . . Wilkie has worked on global terrorism and transnational issues including Afghanistan and the likely humanitarian consequences of a war on Iraq. . . .[/quote]

[quote]"Mr Andrew Wilkie, the former senior intelligence analyst who resigned from the Office of National Assessments (ONA) in protest at John Howard government’s deceit over information relating to Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction and links to terrorism, has been nominated for the Australian of the Year Award 2004. According to the Australia Day Council, “nominating someone for the awards is the greatest honour you can bestow upon them.” If you feel that Mr Andrew Wilkie makes you proud, please support his nomination by providing a written reference for Andrew. This should be sent to:

Australian of the Year Awards 2004
National Australia Day Council
Old Parliament House
King George Terrace
Parkes ACT 2600

Please include the reference number 2103 in your letter. For any information on the Awards, please visit www.australianoftheyear.gov.au, or call 1300 655 193."[/quote]

Anyway, the Weapons of Mass Obfuscation issue is dead.

What I want is the best outcome for the poeple of iraq, the war’s over, sort of. Get in and fix the fucking place!

HG

25

[quote=“International Herald Tribune”]David Kay, the head of the U.S. team searching for banned weapons in Iraq, said Sunday that his inspectors had found a vial of botulinum toxin, were searching for a possible cache of lethal anthrax spores, and were pursuing hints that Iraq concealed banned Scud missiles.

But Kay insisted Sunday on Fox television, as he had in a report issued Thursday, that the picture was far more complicated, and he called attention to several findings on Iraq - “both their intent and their actual activities” - which he said had damning implications.

He said Iraqi scientists had come forward “with equipment, technology, diagrams, documents” on potential weapons programs that they had been ordered to conceal, and which UN inspectors had not found.

And a scientist who said he had been told to hide in his refrigerator a vial of what Kay’s report called “live C. botulinum Okra B, from which a biological agent can be produced,” had also told the search team of a second “large cache of agents” thought to include anthrax spores, Kay said.

The State Department indicated that botulinum, a biological poison that causes muscle paralysis and death, should be considered strong evidence of a banned weapons program.

“You kill people with botuli,” said Richard Boucher, the department spokesman. “They have no other use.”

Kay said evidence of research on brucella, an organism that causes blood infections, and Congo Crimean hemorrhagic fever had also been found. He said the research could be of use in biological weapons.

More than two dozen biological laboratories were hidden in the Iraqi intelligence service, the Mukhabarat, and “carried on activities that should have been declared” to the United Nations, he said.[/quote]

iht.com/articles/112447.html

26

[quote=“Fox”]Tigerman,

It’s hard for the nuts to see the shell. [/quote]

Not applicable to any of my points.

I disagree with your perception of how these men and their ideas fit into the Bush administration.

Look, had the 911 attacks never occurred, these guys might still be sitting on your so-called “lunatic fringe”. But 911 did happen… and it was, I think you’ll agree, a rather significant event. How long have those guys been around? And how much influence had they exerted prior to 911? The events of 911, not the New American Century guys, is what has and is now influencing the Bush administration.

When Bush was running fro president, he was criticized for being an isolationist. He didn’t exhibit any tendency to want to go on adventures overseas. 911 changed that, as it should have.

When Bush was wondering what to do… those guys you cite had been the only ones talking about the problems in the mid east in a way that was different from what anyone else had to say. The Carter-Clinton method of dealing with the mid east has obviously been a failure, to the nth degree.

You can call those New American Century guys nuts if you want… but I think it erroneous to believe that they somehow drive the Bush administration’s policy. I think Bush is firmly in charge. If the New American Century guys were in charge, why does Bush listen so much to Colin Powell?

Anyway, my question to you, which you have been dodging now for a few days, is why you refer to US policy in the mid-east as “lunatic”… when the US is merely enforcing resolutions that the entire world agreed to 12 years ago and that the UNSC has agreed with for the past 12 years, all the way to res. 1441?

I think the US has finally acted on the resolutions that the world agreed to 12 years ago. The real question should be why the world was willing to allow Saddam to remain in power despite his continued violation of UNSC resolutions.

I also find it a bit hypocritical (not saying by you) that so many who criticized Bush I for “allowing” Saddam to remain in power after Gulf War I now are criticizing Bush II for removing Saddam :?

Who’s inconsistant and lunatic?

27

Oh really? OK, how would you remove Saddam?

Duh! I didn’t prove your point. Yes, NK poses a threat to its neighbors… thus, Bush has correctly and successfully encouraged NK’s neighbors to get involved in the negotiations. Assholes are always bitching about US unilateralism… and here you are arguing that the US should go it alone with NK. Bush is apparently much smarter than you, as he correctly understands that NK’s neighbors, particularly China, must be involved in pressuring NK to step down.

You’re joking? Bush repeatedly referred to Iraq as a “growing threat”. You apparently are another critic who doesn’t rely on primary sources… you must be watching too much CNN… go back and look at Bush’s speeches regarding Iraq. Removing Saddam before Iraq became as capable as NK is was the smart thing to do. But I guess you think it would have been better to wait until Saddam had developed or otherwise obtained WMD before trying to deal with him. Are you really this stupid?

What point am I making for you? That the US should have been more macho and attacked NK and in doing so sacrifice Souel? Really, what is your fucking point? I’m struggling to understand!

You’re an idiot. You take your cues from Spiderman comics and then call me irresponsible?

28

One vial does not exactly equate to a Mass. Perhaps they were planning to rid the world of crows feet and wrinkles? :wink: In any case its not really the issue at this point.

HG

[quote]Inspector plays down bacteria vial

IRAQ THREAT: David Kay said that some botulinum that Bush said was proof of a `clandestine’ network had been sitting in a scientist’s refrigerator for 10 years

AP , WASHINGTON
Sunday, Oct 05, 2003,Page 1
Both US President George W. Bush and US Secretary of State Colin Powell contend that a vial of botulinum bacteria found in Iraq is evidence of Saddam Hussein’s weapons intent. But the chief US weapons inspector said the vial had been stored for safekeeping in an Iraqi scientist’s refrigerator since 1993. He offered no evidence it had been used in a weapons program during the last decade.[/quote]

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2003/10/05/2003070432

29

[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]One vial does not exactly equate to a Mass. Perhaps they were planning to rid the world of crows feet and wrinkles? :wink: In any case its not really the issue at this point.

HG

[quote]Inspector plays down bacteria vial

Iraq THREAT: David Kay said that some botulinum that Bush said was proof of a `clandestine’ network had been sitting in a scientist’s refrigerator for 10 years

AP , WASHINGTON
Sunday, Oct 05, 2003,Page 1
Both US President George W. Bush and US Secretary of State Colin Powell contend that a vial of botulinum bacteria found in Iraq is evidence of Saddam Hussein’s weapons intent. But the chief US weapons inspector said the vial had been stored for safekeeping in an Iraqi scientist’s refrigerator since 1993. He offered no evidence it had been used in a weapons program during the last decade.[/quote]

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2003/10/05/2003070432[/quote]

So why would an Iraqi scientist keep a vial of botulinum bacteria in his refrigerator? Its not the type of thing I’d want to keep in my ice box.

30

And yet 1% makes the U.S. complicit in all of the Iraqi crimes of the 1980s?

31

Well, you see it could readily go like this. I give 9 people a heavy stick but one mate a fuelled up and armed F16. I then get them to have a go. Unsurprisingly, the F16 wins everytime. But actually you’re misquoting me. I’m not acusing the US of being complicit in all Iraqi crimes of the eighties. Hell, they were too busy commiting them elsewhere to really pay much heed to that neck of the woods. (I jest).

Tigerman.
Actually there are sound reasons for keeping a vial of botulism around if your job is a research scientist ( a beautician - though that’s type C) not all of them necessarily relate to chemical weapons. Actually there’s vials of this stuff lying around research centres all over the world. However, I grant you its suspect in a country that was known to have used chemical agents. Still, one vial? I’d really like to see them turn up these damned WMDs. I would. Then the UN, the French and all the opponents of the Us would say, “fuck me, they were right” and start to concentrate on rebuilding the place.

HG

32

[quote=“CNN report”]EVIDENCE DISCLOSED
Some of the evidence of Iraqi weapons programs disclosed by CIA weapons inspector David Kay during congressional committee testimony Thursday:

A clandestine network of laboratories and safe houses within the Iraqi Intelligence Service that contained equipment that was subject to U.N. monitoring and was suitable for continuing chemical and biological weapons research.

A prison laboratory complex that possibly was used to test biological weapons agents on humans. Kay said his investigations have shown that Iraqi officials working to prepare for U.N. inspections were ordered not to declare the facility to the U.N.

Reference strains of biological organisms concealed in the home of an Iraqi scientist. One of the strains can be used to produce biological weapons.

New research on biological weapons-applicable agents, Brucella and Congo Crimean Hemorrhagic Fever (CCHF), and continuing work on ricin and aflatoxin – none of which were declared to the U.N.

Documents and equipment, hidden in scientists’ homes, that would have helped Iraq resume uranium enrichment by centrifuge and electromagnetic isotope separation.[/quote]

edition.cnn.com/2003/US/10/05/kay.wmd/index.html

You can play-down these findings if you like. However, given the fact that Iraq was required to immediately provide a comprehensive account of its WMD stockpiles and its programs by the UNSC cease-fire resolution and the 17 subsequent UNSC resolutions, these findings are, IMO, significant.

I find it very difficult to rationalize that these items and or plans, if allowed to remain in the hands of Saddam Hussein’s regime, did not, as Bush stated, pose a “growing threat” to the security of the region and to the United States.

33

[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]Tigerman.

Actually there are sound reasons for keeping a vial of botulism around if your job is a research scientist ( a beautician - though that’s type C) not all of them necessarily relate to chemical weapons. Actually there’s vials of this stuff lying around research centres all over the world. However, I grant you its suspect in a country that was known to have used chemical agents. Still, one vial? I’d really like to see them turn up these damned WMDs. I would. Then the UN, the French and all the opponents of the Us would say, “fuck me, they were right” and start to concentrate on rebuilding the place.[/quote]

I don’t know whether there are any “good” reasons to keep a vial of that stuff in your ice box at home rather than in the lab … however, Iraq was not merely “suspect”… Iraq was unconditionally required to provide an immediate and comprehensive accounting of certain materials… and I believe that this stuff was one of those materials. These certain materials were not only to be accounted for… they were banned in Iraq… by Rascal’s beloved UN.

In these circumstances, I cannot think of any “good” reason for an Iraqi scientist to keep a vial of this vile stuff in his family’s home ice box.

It seems apparent to me, that since the Iraqi government “asked” the scientist to store the stuff in the ice box in his home… there was bad intent. That bad intent must be presumed, considering Saddam’s history and the UNSC resolutions regarding this very material.

I really don’t see how any argument can be made otherwise.

34

It does indeed stink. But I’m hoping more of this stuff turns up. Really, I see your point, but for the global monkey gallery to be truly satisfied more than one vial will have to be found. The intention though, does indeed appear clear.

HG

35

[quote=“U.S. SENATOR JOSEPH LIEBERMAN (D-CT)”] A lot of the press coverage didn’t sound like what Mr. Kay said or what his report said. Or, it certainly didn’t highlight the fact that while he has not found weapons of mass destruction, chemical and biological, [b]he sure has found a lot of evidence that Saddam Hussein had a program

36

David Kay’s interview regarding his ongoing investigation in Iraq:

foxnews.com/story/0,2933,99151,00.html

Who could possibly believe that Hans Blix was ever going to find anything? And he wasn’t there to find anything, anyway, Rascal!

37

[quote=“excerpt from the David Kay interview cited above”]SNOW: Now, you also talk about new research on biological capable agents, such as Brucella, Congo Crimean Hemorrhagic Fever, Ricin and Naflotoxin (ph).

KAY: That’s exactly right, and that’s the things I’m surprised no one has paid attention to.

The new strains they’re working on, including Congo-Crimean Hemorrhagic Fever, are something that should have been reported to the U.N. In fact, all of the work should have been reported. It was not reported.

This is activities, prohibited activities they’ve carried on. And this continued right up to 2003 in these four cases, unreported, undiscovered.
SNOW: Now, you also talk about new research on biological capable agents, such as Brucella, Congo Crimean Hemorrhagic Fever, Ricin and Naflotoxin (ph).

KAY: That’s exactly right, and that’s the things I’m surprised no one has paid attention to.

The new strains they’re working on, including Congo-Crimean Hemorrhagic Fever, are something that should have been reported to the U.N. In fact, all of the work should have been reported. It was not reported.

This is activities, prohibited activities they’ve carried on. And this continued right up to 2003 in these four cases, unreported, undiscovered.[/quote]

38

Tigerman is casting pearls before swine. He presents a subtle, but easily understandable case based on Iraq’s material breaches and everyone just yawns and wants to yap about oil.

39

Coldfront:

Oil, what fucking oil?

HG

40

I was commenting about Tigerman’s posts on this topic in general. Not everything is about you, Sally.