[color=green]Mod Note - discussion split from Let’s murder Chavez
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link that needed to be abbreviated
i think this is compelling. it’s sad that we have given this idiot so much press.
there are many issues with greater importance not getting this kind of attention…
1872 dead US soldiers
12,762 wounded
how many more lives will be wasted?
[quote=“Hondu Grease”]link that needed to be abbreviated
I think this is compelling. it’s sad that we have given this idiot so much press.
there are many issues with greater importance not getting this kind of attention…
[b]1872 dead US soldiers
12,762 wounded
how many more lives will be wasted[/b]?[/quote]
That’s nothing compared to deaths cause in traffic accident, by gunfire, or by heart disease.
No offense HG, it demeans their deaths by saying they were wasted.
yes, but those deaths are caused by “normal” life situations…
not by decisions made by someone who is a position of responsiblity.
it’s not demeaning. it’s sad. so many lives snuffed out for nothing. so much potential put to waste.
as we will see in the next 2 months, everything the US has done in Iraq will be futile. the so-called constitution is never going to take hold. the sunnis are already seeing to that. civil war here we come.
2000 deaths and billions of dollars spent so the factions in iraq can renew their hatred of one another…sounds like victory
[quote=“Hondu Grease”]
it’s not demeaning. it’s sad. so many lives snuffed out for nothing. so much potential put to waste.[/quote]
Yes, just think…they could have enriched their lives and others by teaching English in Taiwan.
[quote=“Hondu Grease”]as we will see in the next 2 months, everything the US has done in Iraq will be futile. the so-called constitution is never going to take hold. the sunnis are already seeing to that. civil war here we come.
2000 deaths and billions of dollars spent so the factions in Iraq can renew their hatred of one another…sounds like victory[/quote]
If so, many here on this forum will be gloating.
[quote=“Comrade Stalin”][quote=“Hondu Grease”]
it’s not demeaning. it’s sad. so many lives snuffed out for nothing. so much potential put to waste.[/quote]
Yes, just think…they could have enriched their lives and others by teaching English in Taiwan.[/quote] Comrade, keep your comments denegrating teaching under your hat, or we’re going to have trouble here. insert angry eyes here Please, if you’ve got a problem with the characterization of the soldiers’ sacrifices, take that on.
[quote=“Comrade Stalin”][quote=“Hondu Grease”]as we will see in the next 2 months, everything the US has done in Iraq will be futile. the so-called constitution is never going to take hold. the sunnis are already seeing to that. civil war here we come.
2000 deaths and billions of dollars spent so the factions in Iraq can renew their hatred of one another…sounds like victory[/quote]
If so, many here on this forum will be gloating.[/quote]I’m going to quote a popular author here: “The only thing sadder than a battle won, is a battle lost.” If things go right in Iraq, that’s a battle won in the Middle East. If things go wrong in Iraq, and the next time around the US decides to play withing the rules of a broader international framework, that’s a battle won on the international scene. Either way, it’s lives lost and a sad, sad thing. Any gloating done ought to be done with a view to the next war avoided.
As for honouring their sacrifices, this is a terrible justification for continuing to fight.
I have a problem with the “military experts” here whose sole experience with any miltary is in a Taiwan kindergarten ordering 5 years old about while wearing an OD-green Che Guevara t-shirt.
Would you have a problem if a paratrooper with no ESL experience came into your class and started telling you how you were teaching everything wrong and that your students were all going to fail? What’s the difference? Too many people in the teaching field think that their academic qualifications (and classroom authority) somehow make them experts in all fields of huiman endeavour and able to comment intelligently on any and all fields.
[i]It ain’t so![/i]
[quote=“Hondu Grease”]
1872 dead US soldiers
how many more lives will be wasted?[/quote]
Just think of it as 1872 people that won’t be killed in traffic accidents this year. Hurray for Bush! He save us all!
[quote=“Richardm”][quote=“Hondu Grease”]
1872 dead US soldiers
how many more lives will be wasted?[/quote]
Just think of it as 1872 people that won’t be killed in traffic accidents this year. Hurray for Bush! He save us all![/quote]
Even better, spare a thought for the hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis in Saddam’s mass graves.
A child’s garment found in a shallow grave. CPA photo.
nobody in here is a fan of Saddam. he is a bastard. but that does not give one nation-state the right to invade another without provacation. by ignoring the fact that Iraq is a soveriegn territory we have set a bad precedent. is it any wonder that the US has had to do this essentially alone???
whats gonna happen when, in the future, another country decides to invade one of its neighbors unprovoked? are they going to use the recent actions of the US as justification? “if they can do it, why cant we?”
don’t mistake an anti-war/anti-bush stance as unpatriotic/unamerican…taking a stance against this mess is as American as apple pie.
Bull. They’ve got our oil and we need it.
Oh cut the liberal claptrap. The invasion of sovereign territories has been a god-given right for americans ever since the invasion of Plymouth Rock. If you don’t like it you can go back to England – I’m sure they never set a precedent of invading foreign lands.
Alone? Get real. This is a coalition. A coalition of the willing. Don’t you watch CNN?
What kind of a stupid justification would that be? If Joe Blow jumps off a bridge does that mean you should? Not hardly. They should follow their consciences.
Your treading dangerously close to treason with those statements, son. In case you’re not aware, George Bush is our commander in chief, not you. I suggest you adjust your attitude and get back in line.
nobody in here is a fan of Saddam. he is a bastard. but that does not give one nation-state the right to invade another without provacation. by ignoring the fact that Iraq is a soveriegn territory we have set a bad precedent. is it any wonder that the US has had to do this essentially alone??? [/quote]
40 countries provided aid. The French and Germans didn’t BFD. Hitler didn’t do anything to provoke the US…the Japanese did. Do you suggest we return Europe to the Nazis and say “Sorry about that”? 
Bull. They’ve got our oil and we need it.
Oh cut the liberal claptrap. The invasion of sovereign territories has been a god-given right for Americans ever since the invasion of Plymouth Rock. If you don’t like it you can go back to England – I’m sure they never set a precedent of invading foreign lands.
Alone? Get real. This is a coalition. A coalition of the willing. Don’t you watch CNN?
What kind of a stupid justification would that be? If Joe Blow jumps off a bridge does that mean you should? Not hardly. They should follow their consciences.
Your treading dangerously close to treason with those statements, son. In case you’re not aware, George Bush is our commander in chief, not you. I suggest you adjust your attitude and get back in line.[/quote]
I bet you impress the hell out of your stoned lesbian buddies in Northern Californian la-La Land.
Bull. They’ve got our oil and we need it.
Oh cut the liberal claptrap. The invasion of sovereign territories has been a god-given right for Americans ever since the invasion of Plymouth Rock. If you don’t like it you can go back to England – I’m sure they never set a precedent of invading foreign lands.
Alone? Get real. This is a coalition. A coalition of the willing. Don’t you watch CNN?
What kind of a stupid justification would that be? If Joe Blow jumps off a bridge does that mean you should? Not hardly. They should follow their consciences.
Your treading dangerously close to treason with those statements, son. In case you’re not aware, George Bush is our commander in chief, not you. I suggest you adjust your attitude and get back in line.[/quote]
Fred??? Did you get MT’s password??
That’s some funny stuff brother! 
mmmm…most of what you wrote was pretty un-original and lacked any real thought but trying to figure out the CNN quote. Are you saying CNN is support the war or puts a good picture on things?
mmmm…most of what you wrote was pretty un-original and lacked any real thought but trying to figure out the CNN quote. Are you saying CNN is support the war or puts a good picture on things?[/quote]
I’ll bet he was joking. Unless he’s had a political conversion recently. 
A Declaration of War is not a provocation?
A Declaration of War is not a provocation?[/quote]
The US was supplying military and financial aid to the UK. If anything, the US provoked Hitler.
I’m sure that’s how he saw it anyway.
[quote=“Comrade Stalin”]
[quote=“Hondu Grease”]as we will see in the next 2 months, everything the US has done in Iraq will be futile. the so-called constitution is never going to take hold. the sunnis are already seeing to that. civil war here we come.
2000 deaths and billions of dollars spent so the factions in Iraq can renew their hatred of one another…sounds like victory[/quote]
If so, many here on this forum will be gloating.[/quote]
Not me. Feeling shame and sadness would be closer.
Whether a country’s great ideals are factually degraded over time, or that degradation happens on a personal level as an individual realizes the truth of history, it is nothing to celebrate.
Agreed.
Sorry, Iraq had signed a ceasefire which required that it comply by proving it had disarmed, etc. It did not ergo ceasefire over. Bam Bam!
Ironically, this was set first by Kofi Annan and Robin Cooke and this always makes me laugh when they both pushed through the attack on Serbia over the “atrocities” which were being committed against the Kosovars. Ergo, the attack preceded the Iraq attack. It was for humanitarian reasons, but there was no evidence of attacks. So Kofi Annan at the time said while it was not legal it was justified. Compare this with his behavior regarding Iraq. Now, do you suppose that after this first “dangerous precedent” had been set that suddenly Kofi and Robin decide the second one (and with evidence of massive humanitarian issues and attacks) was not justified? Because Kofi’s son and No. 2 were up to their eyeballs in Saddam corruption? Because the largest single agency with the most funding was the Oil for Food program? Do ya think? Must be all about oil though right? yeah right!
The majority of both EU and NATO nations signed on. All of our allies in East Asia were on board. Sorry, alone? Because Germany and France and Belgium were not on board? Oh but they have been so helpful in Afghanistan where Germany committed itself to police training. Quietly the US has had to take over because Germany is only committing $100 million through 2010. We commit that this year. So if Germany is going to be such a pisspoor ally in a country where it has agreed to commit itself. Hell, choose Bosnia, Kosovo or Afghanistan, what makes you think that having it on board was going to make any f***ing difference in Iraq?
This is what irritates me most about the Iraq conflict. Pussy nations like Germany and France were demanding a veto on US actions. Yet, if and when Saddam developed wmds and needed to be taken out for real, there would have been massive deaths from fighting such weapons and who would be dying? Germans? French? or as usual American soldiers? So we must allow these pansy-assed little shits the luxury of immersing themselves in their moral and international legal sensibilities and then when push comes to shove where would they be? Sitting around talking about how oh sorry their constitutions preclude them from action, hope you understand etc. or sorry budget difficulties we can no longer finance what we said we would.
Probably the same thing that has happened for the past 1000 years absolutely nothing. Countries get invaded all the time. It is only the law-abiding ones who would not invade anyway who would be bound by these treaties. Do you think Saddam was? would? then please account for the dangerous precedent that he set when he invaded not only Iraq, but Kuwait.
That is why trying to set up something like international law is so f***ing pointless. Look at the UN. That organizations spends all its time condemning human rights abuses in Israel. Meanwhile, Sudan, Libya and others like Zimbabwe are appointed to the human rights commission. Have at it if you want, but for those of us who actually know how these things work in practice, we will be sending someone like Bolton with a whip and chair to keep these mongrels back in the corner where they belong and not pretending that we can subvert US interests (which have served the civilized world beautifully by the way) to some international collective.
You are free to think so but reality does not bear this out. Until you wake up to that fact, the Democrats will continue to lose elections because most people who live in the Real World know deep down just what it is you are shoveling. Most people still remember Carter after all and they ain’t having that again. You will have to wait until Carter and McGovern are no longer in the collective mindset before you can win with these little cherries again. Too bad really. I wish someone would hold Bush’s little feet to the fire regarding the massive increase in government and spending. But I don’t expect to see that from any of you any time soon. Pity you could not wise up about foreign policy and the need for strong defense because we do need an opposition party and you aren’t giving it to us. It keeps everyone honest and that is what the Republicans need more than anything of right now. But no. You all go whining and lighting candles and having vigils with Cindy Who Speaks In Your Name, but Bush Doesn’t Speak in My Name. Oh bother. Who can keep up with who is or is not speaking for you people these days.
