What age return to West so kid won't forget Chinese?

Taiwan Parenting
1

Assume there’s a mother and father, one from Taiwan and the other from the US/UK/Canada/etc. They live in Taiwan with their child who was born here. Things are going well for them in Taiwan, but they feel an obligation to return to the West, to be closer to the aging grandparents back there who may not have many years left, along with a desire to return to where the air is clean, open space abounds, etc.

But their child is only 3 years old. Her oral abilities in Mandarin and English are both coming along great and she’s just starting to learn Chinese characters. They’ve been thinking maybe they can return in about a year. Her Chinese reading and writing skills will be rudimentary, but she should have a good, strong foothold on speaking and listening. Surely if they move to California, where she can have Chinese friends and attend Chinese schools on weekends, she won’t lose her abilities too badly.

That’s what I was thinking until I spoke with our pediatrician yesterday, a nice young Taiwanese father who lived in the US for many years (so he knows a lot about both worlds). His advice was don’t move back before she’s in 4th grade or she’ll almost completely lose her Chinese abilities. What do you think? Must we wait that long? Should we wait longer?

2

9 or 10 years old. (This advice comes from studying this stuff, not from direct experience, though)

3

It’s not that it couldn’t work, but it usually doesn’t work. Every kid I personally know who has moved to the West this young has forgotten his or her native language. The problem with coming back at grade 4 or 5 is that while I know several people whose English is native-like or almost native-like who started learning it at that age, I also know some who almost don’t have a native language - ie. their Chinese is not as good as the average native speaker, and their English has serious problems.
To make it work, I think one parrent has to always use Chinese. If a kid that young realizes that his or her mom can speak English, the child will eventually stop speaking Chinese. It’s almost like they feel it’s inferior, and just refuse to speak it. My nephew was like this with Russian and English - he could understand both as a baby and toddler, and was starting to speak Russian - and then he just seemed to stop, because he knew his Russian father and grandparents would speak English too. He’s six now, and he clearly feels Russian is inferior and refuses to speak it, or even try to speak it.
However, I believe if his father and grandparents had always only spoken Russian to him, he would be bilingual.
The problem is forcing yourself to do it. Don’t think it will be easy. My friends who are immigrants here in Canada are struggling to get better at English, and naturally just start speaking (broken, usually) English to their kids. And pretty soon the 4 or 5-year-old is refusing to speak her or his native language, and pretty soon after that they have forgotten how.

4

I was 15 when my family returned to Canada. One of my brothers was13 and the three youngest were 11. We all spoke English,Mandarin and Taiwanese with myself and the one brother speaking Taiwanese as our first language and the three younger ones having English as their first language. Within a year or so of arriving in Canada,the three younger ones were no longer speaking any Chinese or Taiwanese. We two older ones still speak all three, although it did get somewhat rusty over the years. Both of us though, upon returning to Taiwan (almost 27 years later) found our Taiwanese returned very quickly and the Mandarin too, but not as easily. I wonder if this has something to do with which language we learned first?

There was very little of anything other than English spoken in our home once we were in Canada and only one brother and I used Taiwanese in our conversations with each other. I think that my younger brothers and sister settled into Canadian life much more easily than we older ones and as a result left almost all of the Taiwanese years behind with ease, while the two of us older ones were extremely homesick and clung to our background much more resulting in retaining language as a way to hold it all together.

A little off topic here, but I think too, that in looking for a “good time” to go stateside, one also needs to look at social adjustment periods. From my own experience, I would never want to put my kids through this kind of culture shock during a time when puberty rears it’s ugly head or when the teen years have hit. My three youngest siblings had very little trouble adapting to change and making friends as they were in elementary school at the time. We (older ones) were in Jr. High and High school respectively and it was hell on earth for both of us. Language and appearances weren’t an issue but the culture shock was. If I had to make this kind of move with my kids I would either do it while they were in elementary school or after high school, just prior to college. The younger kids are, the less judgmental and cruel they can be to “newbies” (generally speaking). The need for a child to fit in to a new society is, in my humble opinion, a bit more important than retaining their early languages. There is always tutoring and Chinese class available in most larger centers. Just my .02 worth.

5

I have many many friends that moved here (Canada) from Greater China when they were quite young or were born here but with 100% Chinese (various dialects) spoken at home. The fact is, the vast majority of them now do not have fluent conversational skills beyond the basic niceties, and that’s growing up with two parents speaking Chinese. One friend, who moved to Canada at the age of 1, recalled how she spoke no English until she reached grade 1 because her parents didn’t speak English at home. She had to be enrolled in ESL. However, by the end of grade 1, she and her older sister had already switched over to speaking English to one another. Now as an adult, her Chinese ability is less than my four year old, which is to say she can put a sentence together, but is not really all that fluent. She also cannot read or write her own Chinese name. In fact, she doesn’t know her Chinese name.

A Chinese kid that’s enrolled in the same music class as my four year old son simply refuses to speak Chinese at home even though his parents speak Chinese 90% of the time to him. Using English 10% of the time in the home has gotten the kid to realize that his parents do understand English and he’ll just speak whatever he likes.

With only one parent speaking Chinese in the home, I think it’ll be awfully difficult for the language to stick. Also, it’s not all that clear by what you mean “won’t forget her Chinese”. After all, if you’ll be satisfied with her Chinese ability as a four year old and simply wish to maintain that kindergarten level of Chinese for her, I think you’ll have a fighting chance if you wife keeps at it. If you mean you wish for her to advance beyond that, then you must think about at what minimum level of Chinese do you wish for her to maintain. Do you wish for her to be able to discuss her feelings with her mother in Chinese as she gets older? Do you wish for her to be able to accurately describe herself and her family to strangers? Do you wish her to be able to write an essay on what she wants to be when she grows up, all in Chinese? If you can answer this to yourself, then it’ll help you in determining how long to keep her in Taiwan.

Since you already speak English to her in the home, you can probably afford to stay in Taiwan a bit longer than compared to a local kid before she becomes too old to learn English at a native level. For local kids, as bababa pointed out, that breaking point is around age 9 (and perhaps even up to age 12, depending on the kid).

6

Lots of good points above. Thanks. Of course if we move to the states at age 4 she’ll only speak like a 4 year-old and I would hope for her to do much more than just maintain that level. I hope she’ll be as fluent in Chinese as the average native Chinese speaker, hopefully even better, hopefully capable of professional work in Chinese some day. I guess it is a little unrealistic to expect her to achieve that if we (a family with only one Chinese speaking parent, basically), relocate to the States at age 4. I guess a few more years here are essential.

It hadn’t occurred to me previously, but I also look forward to speaking with my dad about the subject, as he moved from Germany to hte US age 7 and today is fluent in German (even translating books professionally). I never gave that much thought before, but I’m now guessing his family spoke only German at home.

7

Also consider whether you want the child to have ability to read and write Chinese as well. In college I knew many immigrants who could speak Chinese but couldn’t write Chinese at all and could barely read even basics. You’d probably need to stay through high school for written Chinese skills to become fairly well developed.

Also as far as your grandparents speaking German at home after immigrating, that may not be true. My grandmother immigrated to the U.S. as a native German speaker who also could speak some Polish and Russian but she insisted on speaking English at home to make the kids fit in better. Of course that means my dad doesn’t know any German at all. It’s possible your dad learned German later on in school.

PS- Just give up. You’re here for the long haul.

8

My daughter is 13 and fluent in both English and Chinese, but studies at a Chinese school.

If you want them to retain an inkling of reading and writing, then I’d let them stay here for much longer than the above posters suggest, such as up to grade 8 or 9. Even then, without constant reinforcement, it’s likely they’ll lose 80% or more within a couple of years.

9

Wow, judging from the first-hand experience of some of these posters, it sounds hopeless for my daughter. She was born in the States, but we moved here when she was 3 months old. She’ll be speaking soon. My wife and I speak about 90% English in the home, but her daycare is all in Chinese and Taiwanese. When she reaches preschool age, since she is in Taiwan, I plan to send her to an English environment to learn the basics and for the early reenforcement. Then, it will be off to Taiwanese public school, to learn to read and write Chinese, and dear old dad will continue the English instruction.

Our plan was to head back Stateside once she was out of elementary school, thinking that would be enough to retain her Chinese, but maybe we’ll have to stay longer. I guess there is no easy way out for this. I’m interest to hear other people’s stories.

10

I moved to Australia at the age of 4 with my family, my brother at that time was 1.5 and my little sister was basically born there a few years later. We can all speak conversational Mandarin without a weird accent as we spoke only Chinese to our parents and go to weekend Chinese school. It takes a few sentences out of us before people start to suspect we aren’t local.

But our vocab is limited as we are only exposed to the usual day to day things at home and have never heard technical terms such as 購物袋, 利率, 貸款… etc… the more professional terms that are considered basic here in Taiwan. Especially the first one, took me a while before I realised they were asking if I wanted a plastic bag. But after living here for a bit over a year and socializing a lot with local Taiwanese, my vocab has improved dramatically. My friends have all said that my speaking is a lot better than when they first met me.

Reading and writing on the other hand is a huge problem. The 2hrs a week of Chinese class I took for 10 years did not really help much as there simply wasn’t the environment to pick much up. However taking 6 months of classes at Chinese Cultural University has been a big help. I learnt quite fast as I could already speak and learning new characters was not new to me. In that short time I can now chat on msn and read a lot of day to day things. But any published material (newspaper, magazine) is still out of my reach.

So I think when raising kids, speak to them in Chinese if you are in an English speaking country. Don’t let them get used to only using one language. My mother did not allow English at home till we were about grade 5 or 6. That way we spoke English all day at school, and then came home and spoke Chinese.

On the other hand if you want them to be native English speakers with no accent, you better move over there early. I know too many people who moved to Australia around Year 7 or 8 who still have very strong chinglish accents and are not very fluid at writing. I’d say move before they are Grade 4 to ensure they sound like native English speakers. But it also has to do a lot with who the kids friends are during high school. If they hang out with a lot of Chinese speakers, then obviously their English will suffer. Also getting a few years of Chinese education will ensure that they know enough Chinese to last them till when they grow up and really begin to see the need for it.

11

[quote=“jwbrunken”]Wow, judging from the first-hand experience of some of these posters, it sounds hopeless for my daughter. She was born in the States, but we moved here when she was 3 months old. She’ll be speaking soon. My wife and I speak about 90% English in the home, but her daycare is all in Chinese and Taiwanese. When she reaches preschool age, since she is in Taiwan, I plan to send her to an English environment to learn the basics and for the early reenforcement. Then, it will be off to Taiwanese public school, to learn to read and write Chinese, and dear old dad will continue the English instruction.

Our plan was to head back Stateside once she was out of elementary school, thinking that would be enough to retain her Chinese, but maybe we’ll have to stay longer. I guess there is no easy way out for this. I’m interest to hear other people’s stories.[/quote]

I also have to wonder how well other languages tie into this scenario. It seems keeping German, Italian, Spanish, or some of the other languages that come from Latin would be easier than retaining an Asian Language like Mandarin.

Anyone have any insight into that?

Matt

12

If one parent is mandarin speaking, why would the child lose all their abilities to speak should he/she went to an english speaking country before 4th grade?

I would ask myself this: do all those little kids who come here from an english speaking country because of their parent’s job lose all their English abilities now that they are in a Mandarin speaking country? I don’t think so. And a place like California… where Chinese education/learning centers are readliy available… i wouldn’t worry too much. There’s even a new private kindergarden in SFO that is Mandarin immersion.

13

jdson is fluent in both English and Chinese. Either way, learning English in Taiwan, or Chinese abroad, mom and dad MUST take up the slack and TEACH the language to the child. Just talking is not good enough.

Storytime every night for years, talking through all the movies and TV shows, and assorted methods of homeschooling (for us it’s reading)…etc

14

[quote=“bushibanned”]If one parent is Mandarin speaking, why would the child lose all their abilities to speak should he/she went to an english speaking country before 4th grade?[/quote] The fact remains, most of them do. It’s because the parents don’t force themselves to keep up the kid’s other language. You’re stressed out, trying to deal with a new country, new job, new language, etc., suffering from overwhelming culture shock. Forcing a toddler or older child to speak to you in a language he or she knows isn’t used outside is not that easy - evidently, because the people I know have usually given up.
Also - some immigrant parents want their kid to learn English perfectly and to fit in, and so don’t even want them to keep up their first language.

[quote]I would ask myself this: do all those little kids who come here from an english speaking country because of their parent’s job lose all their English abilities now that they are in a Mandarin speaking country? I don’t think so. [/quote]No, but I know a couple who have. One reason many don’t is they are going to English schools, English is spoken in the home, and everyone knows they will be moving back home.
You can keep up your child’s Chinese language skills in the West, but you will have to work at it.

15

I agree. Outside the home exposure to Chinese will drop dramatically – no more Chinese nanny, and daily Chinese conversations with friends, acquaintances, shopkeepers, etc. And inside the home, in homes like mine anyway (where one parent barely speaks Chinese) the parents will speak to each other at least 90% in English and the Taiwanese parent is not likely to speak exclusively in Chinese with the child.

And some immigrant kids may be reluctant to speak their native tongue in an effort to fit in. My dad tells me when his family came over from Germany his mother dressed him in leiderhosen to his immense shame and humiliation, so he changed into blue jeans under a bridge on the way to school. He’s told me of the huge efforts he made to fit in and be the same as all the other native kids. Presumably, avoiding ones foreign tongue would be part of that process.

16

[quote=“jwbrunken”]Wow, judging from the first-hand experience of some of these posters, it sounds hopeless for my daughter. She was born in the States, but we moved here when she was 3 months old. She’ll be speaking soon. My wife and I speak about 90% English in the home, but her daycare is all in Chinese and Taiwanese. When she reaches preschool age, since she is in Taiwan, I plan to send her to an English environment to learn the basics and for the early reenforcement. Then, it will be off to Taiwanese public school, to learn to read and write Chinese, and dear old dad will continue the English instruction.

Our plan was to head back Stateside once she was out of elementary school, thinking that would be enough to retain her Chinese, but maybe we’ll have to stay longer. I guess there is no easy way out for this. I’m interest to hear other people’s stories.[/quote]
JWB, I think if your daughter were to finish grade 6 in Taiwan (that would be 11-12 years old), she should have a solid enough foundation that if the language is still used in the home, she should be able to maintain enough to be able to carry on a fairly decent conversation. Reading can be kept up with interesting materials although the writing may fade quite quickly. However, both can also be relearned quite quickly as well because she will have had that foundation.

I think it you do move back, it’s important to stick to a very strict OPOL strategy (as discussed in the language of eloquence thread). OPOL has worked very well in our home and our sons know instinctively to only speak one language to dad, one language to mom (neither are English), and English outside the home.

Maintaining and improving on a foreign language for your child is very hard work and in my opinion, is 90% dependent on the efforts of the parents. Bababa correctly states that the primary reason kids do not retain their native tongue(s) is due to the parents not making sufficient effort to do so. One shouldn’t underestimate this effort for it is quite onerous as I’m finding out first hand. When your kid spends most of the day at school, comes home, has homework, has sports, maybe has music lessons, maybe has other extracurricular activities, and maybe you even take the kids to church on Sundays, when will you have time to slot in some extra Chinese lessons? When you are tired from work and household chores, when things get busy, when you’re in a bad mood, “optional” items such as learning a foreign language at home is typically cast by the wayside. If you have more than one child, this becomes even harder. Often, parents toss the child into weekend Chinese school and just hope for the best. The important thing to do, imo, is to view the maintenance and advancement of the foreign language as mandatory rather than optional or nice-to-have. If you view it as important as the primary language of society, or science, or math, then you’ll do what’s necessary for your child to succeed. If you view it as something you can leave to weekend Chinese school, then really, all is lost.

17

Damn. :wall: :wall: :wall:

I’m starting to realize that. Not that there’s anything wrong with Taiwan – I’m happy here – but I figured I had about a year left, there was light at the end of the tunnel, I was marking off the days til my release, making plans for my future, starting to check out real estate back home, getting my parents excited, and now. . . . . well, it looks like I’ve got another 5 or 6 years, till she’s 8 or 9. . . at least.

Of course I don’t have to take her language skills into account. I can go back whenever I please. But as one who has studied several foreign languages and, in the american-fashion, can barely speak any of them, I feel an obligation to give her something better, to give her the gift of bilingualism.

I’ve still got some serious thinking to do, but I believe you may be right, jlick. And heck, who knows, maybe I’ll finally learn passable mandarin myself.

Taiwan, wo3 ai4 ni3. :beer:

18

My wife and I had this discussion when our daughter was born. Our basic conclusion was that we wanted our daughter to be fluent in both Mandarin and English (At the moment, she understands both + Hakka, and speaks about 15 words in Mandarin, and 5 in English) However, I would really rather that she didn’t do Junior or Senior High in Taiwan. So we are planning to head to Canada around the end of Elementary. My bosses daughter went to Canada in grade five and she is fluent in both languages.I think KIDS in Junior/Senior High are still kids, but in Taiwan they seem to be asked to grow up too quickly. :noway: (my problem is, from my personal experience, schools in Canada are too slack)

 I'm not fooling myself that it will be easy, either before we more or after, but I hope with hard work from me before we leave, and my wife once we arrive in Canada, she can maintain fluency in both languages.
19

Well, this discussion led me to ask my dad in a recent phone conversation about his childhood language experience. He told me he left Germany for the US at age 7 (which I knew) and his parents only spoke German in the home until at least the time when he left home, as a teenager (which I hadn’t known).

I found that very interesting, now understand why he is fluent in German, and now believe even more those who say that if I want my girl to speak Chinese reasonably well (not to mention reading and writing), we’ve got to stay here till she’s at least 8 or 9 years old. I’m feeling no remorse; that’s just the way it is.

20

[quote=“Mother Theresa”]Well, this discussion led me to ask my dad in a recent phone conversation about his childhood language experience. He told me he left Germany for the US at age 7 (which I knew) and his parents only spoke German in the home until at least the time when he left home, as a teenager (which I hadn’t known).

I found that very interesting, now understand why he is fluent in German, and now believe even more those who say that if I want my girl to speak Chinese reasonably well (not to mention reading and writing), we’ve got to stay here till she’s at least 8 or 9 years old. I’m feeling no remorse; that’s just the way it is.[/quote]
Remember that your dad had the benefit of both parents speaking German at home. He was able to hear and model adult conversation in German. If you and your wife speak English to each other, then your child will not have the opportunity to be immersed even while at home. Her vocabulary and language usage will thus be limited to the conversation topics between your wife and your child. Maintaining her level will probably require annual trips back to Taiwan during the summer for some full time immersion.