What can we do to help oppressed Middle Eastern women?

“Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds.” - Ralph Waldo Emerson

But this is not a foolish consistency to ask that people of different religions & skin colors all by treated by the same standards of fairness.

This is what BF wrote:

This is what he understood the quote to mean:

:unamused: :unamused:

Are all people and all religions equal? Should they be? Says who?

[quote=“Mucha (Muzha) Man”]This is what BF wrote:

This is what he understood the quote to mean:

:unamused: :unamused:[/quote]

Well thank you SO much for clearing that up. At least you are consistent.

:unamused: :unamused:

“We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal…”

You disagree with those sentiments, Blueface? No, not every person has the same IQ, good looks, talent, moral character, etc., as the next person - that’s obvious. We all make judgements about others on the individual level. But to make a sweeping generalization of an entire race, like so:

[quote=“fred smith”]
That said, outside of Iran, I don’t want to see any of these Middle Eastern women outside their burkas or veils. We are talking about some pretty ugly merchandise here that would tilt the scales on the upper side of the body mass index. Besides the veils cover up the fact that many have more facial hair than I do. These women look like they smell…[/quote]

Fred Smith says that Middle Eastern women are fat, ugly, and smelly. Yeah, he’ll rebut by sputtering, “Relax, I was only joking…” Well, ha ha ha, you are sooo funny and clever Mr. Smith. He’s like that guy who claims he has nothing against blacks but keeps on telling n*gger jokes every day for “laughs”. Let’s face it - half of this Fred guy’s posts are Muslim-bashing rants. He’s creepily obsessed with it.

[quote=“mod lang”]

Fred Smith says that Middle Eastern women are fat, ugly, and smelly. Yeah, he’ll rebut by sputtering, “Relax, I was only joking…” Well, ha ha ha, you are sooo funny and clever Mr. Smith. He’s like that guy who claims he has nothing against blacks but keeps on telling n*gger jokes every day for “laughs”. [/quote]

Yep…he sure is. I’ve seen him in action doing just that.
:imp:

Fred’s mind regarding charity work is one which I do find disconcerting especially since so many from ‘upper class’ society where I’m from tend to use the excuse of charity to somehow absolve them for being ‘superior’ to those they do charity for. And Fred comes from the background of upper class consciousness in which doing aid work lends more cohesiveness to others in his own clan than the deed itself. If Fred were truly so noble and selfless about his ‘causes’, he’d feel no need to brag. Instead, he’s of a superior mindset that the ‘lousy liberals’ he loves to poke fun of are all talk, no action.
Believe me, I grew up with the “Charity League” too, Fred. All the while dealing with hideous hypocricies within my own family. Later, hearing my mother blaming herself for bringing her children ‘too close’ to those she really didn’t feel we should ‘mix’ with because all that lovely ‘volunteer’ work backfired right in her face.

You can see this same level of hypocricy by noticing the title of this thread that Fred started (help the poor muslim women) and then reading his later posts about how they’re fat and disgusting. Help them Fred? How?

Thanks for the offer of recruit Fred, but I volunteer with a group you may personally not appreciate as needful, but who in this society are terribly so. I feel no need to announce the name of the foundation here as recruiting methods are stringent. I will send you information through PM if you’re so inclined.

First Alien:

I only brought up the charity thing when it reached an appropriate point. I don’t think I was bragging about it. I was offering numbers and contact info when I felt it was appropriate. I see however that you are not interested in taking me up on my offer and please stop projecting your family neuroses on me. It’s not fair or appropriate. I think that you are bringing up these examples merely to provide cover and excuses so that you do not actually have to address my point. Finally, Alien, you have never “seen” or “heard” me in action ever on these things. The only things you have “seen” or “heard” have been on this forum. Be fair about that. Unless you count that time I joked about voting for George Wallace because you were in one of your self-righteous rants. There’s a very big difference between that and making racist comments or jokes. Meanwhile to the others, I have reread the whole flame forum thread again and I believe that it is VERY CLEAR that I have repeatedly said any violence or attacks or fatwas on Muslims would be RIDICULOUS, while questioning why so many people are eager to explain away similar violence perpetrated by Muslims against other groups. What is so hard to understand about this? I am going to to try to post an article that pointed out that the best way to censor people in America today is to accuse them of racism. How is it that questioning Muslim violence immediately leads to a comment like “you remind me of this guy at this bar who is always joking about blacks?” It is just another way to smear the person rather than addressing the argument. Also, I am looking at various threads about Taiwanese men and small penises and Taiwanese women who are psycho sluts and I am not seeing anyone rushing to scream racism in these threads. So laughingly referring to fat Muslim women is beyond the pale but calling local women psycho xiaojies etc. and hungry for foreign men and local men are small dicked mamma’s boys is acceptable? AGAIN, this is my point regarding double standards.

No I am not anti-Muslim or anti-Arab, but I have noticed that numerous people are quick to rise and defend both groups when they would NEVER offer similar defense/support for groups like Christians who are ignorant, etc. Also, AGAIN. I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN. I am the one that is always calling for the same moral and sensitivity consistency. My whole point in the Muslim thread which has been conveniently overlooked is that while these types of comments can be made about everyone else under the sun, two groups are excluded because they are “sensitive.” Reread the whole thread and stop picking out minor examples. You are only looking to prove your points and deliberately missing my clear message which is and has obviously been proven here: You cannot criticize Muslims or Arabs. Second, moral views are immediately dismissed or not applied when it comes to the Arab Street. I find it interesting that the comments about Muslim women provoke such a backlash but similar comments against the French and Germans are somehow “okay?” Look at those two threads and the joking around that we do there. Why has no one come to the defense of the French or Germans? Second, I like how immediately I can be labeled as someone who is always “joking” about the other minority that no one can criticize. Nice smearing. You remind me of the psycho taxi driver that took me to work today, etc. How is this applicable?

I think that there is a problem in the Muslim world and no one really wants to address it. Second, call me anti-Muslim or racist or whatever but at the end of the day, it’s not me or people like me who are blowing up buildings or strapping explosives onto their children etc. and THAT is what I would like to discuss. How many Muslims have been killed by Christians or Jews in the last year? Hmmm? And just how many times have I called for Nuking the Muslims or Perpetrating violence against Muslims or Arabs without clarifying that doing so would be ridiculous, while AGAIN questioning why it is acceptable for them or why so many people explain such violence away?

Save the histrionics for your own little “moral” groups.

Finally, Yeah Alien private message me whatever group you are involved in. I would love to know what kind of charity work you are doing. Really. Also, why is it not acceptable to bring it up here on this thread?

Mapodofu:

Two things since I find your other posts eminently sensible.

You have just called for nuking certain Arabs that deserve it.

You have said that Americans and British are fat. Is this not a generalization of the very kind that I am not supposed to use?

How is this any different from anything that I have said? How is it that I am racist, insensitive etc. and these comments are acceptable? Just curious.

freddy

So, perhaps not one for F-F-F-Freddie, then?

Quite right, got to keep up the quaity of personnel. Make sure the chaps are committed to the cause and all that, what?

Ah… so…err… not that stringent, after all.

:wink:

Well I guess I will wade into this one more time.

Alien: I am still waiting for the charity information.

Second, you do this to me all the time Alien. You project things onto me. Oh you are a Republican. My parents were Republican and this is what they were like (racist), therefore you must be too.

My mother did charity work. You do charity work. Hence ergo you must be doing it for the same reasons, have the same attitudes and therefore you are just like my mother.

And you do seem rather eager to point out your “upper class” background. Why? To flaunt your limousine liberal rebelliousness or what? I don’t see how it is relevant to the discussion, charity or my original point. How do you know if I am upper class? Ever seen my bank statement? Know my family? What?

Finally, I have called Middle Eastern women fat and ugly. Have you ever called a Taiwanese woman a psychoxiaojie, a Taiwanese man less than well endowed or a men in general as crazed guntoting testosterone violence prone beings?

Is that acceptable?

And why the hell can’t we joke about people? or is it that we cannot joke about certain people? I was joking about the Middle Eastern women. Why do I have to apologize for that? Is joking now illegal too?

Fundamentalists of pretty much all the major religions seem to get a lot of mileage off of subjugating the chicks. The Muslim angle on this has been adequately discussed, but it seems everybody wrote their holy books demanding that women be subservient to men if read in a very literal way. There are fundamentalist Christians going about saying how God wants men to be the family leaders. Orthodox Jewry also deal with a whole range of prohibitions on things women can do. For the life of me, none of this makes any sense.

If people want to improve the lot in life of women in the Muslim world, then the best way is to increase their education and to support moderate Islam. Give Muslim women scholarships (even to cover the costs of middle or high school) if you want to start to unravel the whole process. I have no idea where to donate money to, but there’s got to be a few charities in the Muslim world that will take your money and not use it to feed Al Quada for a month.

Unfortunately, the oil money of the Saudis has been dumped into mass-producing Wahabbism throughout the world, pushing an ultra-orthodox version of Islam onto societies that didn’t have it before. The problem is getting worse, not better.

Wow!
Things have really gotten worse in Afghanstan since the US kicked out the Taliban!

From the Wall Street Journal:

Under the Taliban, the streets of Kabul – some paved, some not – carried an occasional pickup truck loaded with armed men but relatively little other traffic. Barely two years later, and with the population swelling, the Afghan capital has about 90,000 registered cars and 33,000 taxis, plus buses, trucks, cars from the provinces and cars without license plates.
*
*
Mirwais Alemyar, a 20-year-old shopkeeper, just bought an old Toyota with right-side drive for $2,500. He is the first person in his extended family to own a car. Under the Taliban, he said, casual driving was frowned upon as a sign of decadence, and Mr. Alemyar didn’t want to stand out. He couldn’t have afforded a car anyway because most of his savings came after the mullahs were driven out of power.
All of this makes car salesmen happy. Hamidullah Khaksar, owner of Park car salon, sat on an ornate couch as he recounted the history of his shop. He has been in the business for 22 years, but he has never had it so good. On his office wall, Mr. Khaksar has put up posters of a red Ferrari and a pink Lamborghini, their doors opening invitingly upward. These low-riding sports cars wouldn’t last long on the bumpy streets of the city, where the car of choice for the wealthy is a four-wheel-drive sport-utility vehicle, preferably a Toyota Land Cruiser, with tinted windows for privacy. In a good month, Mr. Khaksar can sell as many as six SUVs, at about $50,000 each. Abdul Rassul Sayaaf, a wealthy former warlord and a leader of an Islamic party, rides in a convoy of Land Cruisers from his home in Paghman near Kabul. His jeeps stood in a sharp contrast to a smelly latrine and a cow’s head lying on the sidewalk in the center of Paghman.

More at:

online.wsj.com/article/0,SB1062 … 5Fone%5Fus

In Iraq (only from when the current attack ‘officially’ started)


iraqbodycount.net/

Fred smith, if you feel strongly about the plight of muslim women go down to the mosque in taipei and tell them what you think, and don’t whatever you do tell them one of your jokes.

Cake:

First, I will accept the figures for the body count. So if you are concerned about deaths you are no doubt VERY concerned by the 300K whacked by Saddam, raped by his sons, tortured, not to mention the millions who died in Iraq, Iran, Kurdistan, and Kuwait because of his wars. Also, how many of these were put directly at risk by saddam’s deliberate policy of moving military installations into civilian areas directly in violation of the Geneva Convention. Finally, how many were soldiers fighting in a war? Big difference here between targeting civilians and military. If the al Qaeda wanted to attack the Pentagon it would not have been all right with me but it would have at least been attacking a military target as opposed to a World Trade Center where the intent was to maximize civilian casualties. When has the US or a Western nation adopted such a policy? I will hold my breath waiting for you to get back to me on this.

Fair enough regarding the jokes IF you mean that henceforth no more jokes will be told. Next time I hear anything about Taiwanese men or psychoxiaojies or fat Brits or asshole Americans or betraying French people I am going to scream bloody murder. I am addressing this more to mod lang. My point has always been that what should be fair for one group should be fair for all. If you are going to do art that denigrates Christian symbols, then I have no problem as long as it can also be done with the Koran, the Torah, Buddha, Vishnu, etc. but I don’t really think that is possible do you?

One last final try: MY POINT IS NOT TO SAY THAT JOKES ARE UNACCEPTABLE. BUT IF THEY ARE OKAY FOR ONE GROUP, THEY ARE OKAY FOR ALL. IF NOT FOR ANY, THEN THAT MEANS ALL ARE PROTECTED. Seems to me though that there are certain groups that are more deserving of sensitivity and protection than others and that is what I have been arguing all along.

Was Hitler a problem? Yes, were most Germans nice. No doubt about it, but the combination together was bad. We see the same thing in the Middle East. So when there are democratic groups in the Middle East then we can rest assured that the “niceness” of the people will actually mean that the government is an adequate reflection of them and their values. Until then, the Arabs and Muslims should be treated the same as the Russians under Stalin, the Germans under Hitler, the Spanish under Franco, the Italians under Mussolini and according to some on this forum, the Americans under George W. Fair?

And Alien: What exactly is that charity? I am still waiting. I never attacked you on this regard. You jumped on me big time regarding my motives for joining and actively participating in charities and smearing me for being a racist just like your parents. You either have to apologize for being wrong or come up with your side of the argument which is the charity that you are involved in. I think that is only fair. No?

freddy

(yawn)

I’ll have to agree with Fred on this one. In my vagabonding days, I travelled throughout most of the Middle East…Turkey, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Libya, Bahrain, Iran, UAE etc…Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. However, I would say that considering most of these women adhere or are forced to accept the repressive roles that society lays on them, most of their day is revolved around domestic duties. Namely cooking, cleaning, and taking care of the babies. And many of them are fat as a bowling ball…Relgion ruling daily lives + many ceremonies involving food = fat women. I call it the Chewycorn Theory of Bouncing Flesh. These ladies don’t go to aerobics and eat food that is high in calories. However, concepts of beauty are different in these countries and many would find the debutantes on the catwalks of Paris a trite skinny…Many Indian women and Malay women have the same characteristics in my opinion.This is not racist, it is an observation. I think the same way when I go back to my hometown and watch the locals. They are fat people dedicating their lives to crass materialism and this involves going to a supermarket and buying 3 weeks worth of food to eat. In fact, except for Asia and some European countries, I think most of the world is fat…Lets not be too politically correct here…Equality and equal opportunity for all, but not at the expense of a cheap laugh and competitive one-upmanship. To really help Middle Eastern women, we have to exterminate a generation of bad leaders, bombard the airwaves with Madison Avenue sexual advertisements and establish new regimes that agree to foster democracy and the open society.

An interesting debate on CNN the othe night. With his statebuilding and demands for more money from Congress, an analyst mentioned that George Bush is the most left wing Republican in the White House in some time despite a number of pundits that try and portray him as this neo-conservative. Nixon and Teddy Roosevelt were also mentioned as Republicans that campaigned on the right, but governed on the left. Skull and Bones and the Hegelian dialectic? hehehehehheeheh. One can not deny that he has increased government spending big time, and his educational bill he signed with Sen. Ted Kennedy (D-MASS) is a program that makes liberals salivate.

However, I think his speech yesterday will provide more fodder for Democratic attacks. As mentioned in the speech, Bush is now using the “War on Terrorism” as the causus belli for the war rather than "WOMD.’ This could allow Wesley Clark some ammo if he decides to enter the race. Despite being a good old fashioned FDR style liberal, I applaud Bush for his foreign policy in the Middle East. He is a man of conviction. Despite the lack of history of democracy in the region, civil society mechanisms should be implemented throughout the region, not just in Afganistan and Iraq. This should involve allied countries as well. I just hope Bush also pushes for the Saudi’s to liberalize their regime and Kuwait to enter the 21st century. Sure kick your enemies in the ass. But a real Texan should also have the gonads to tell his friends to clean their underwear as well. And Riyadh has some damn dirty linnen. If the US only involves itself in selective nation building rather than taking a pan-regional approach, it will help the Dems in 2004…

Ta for now,
Chewy

Chewy:

Interesting points and thanks for the support vis-a-vis the excess political correctness. Sensitivity to all or sensitivity to none.

I heard that George W. realizes that there is no way to shrink the federal government so he keeps cutting taxes to starve it of oxygen and when the deficits reach such a point, people will be forced to cut government programs. Is this possible? Personally, if that is what it would take, I heartily approve.

Cake: One last point. I am not the one who is always protesting this that or the other. So I was curious as to why women who scream bloody murder about their rights in the states are spending more time protesting George W.'s war in Iraq than rallying to support their sisters in Iraq, Saudi Arabia, etc. I see more women in the US protesting the fact that the private August Country Club only allows men while allowing genital mutilation, stonings, maimings, murder, illiteracy, poor health to run rampant among their Muslim sisters. Where is the logical consistency here?

Logic is not a feeling. :laughing:

Fred if you’re desperate to know, PM me. Take the initiative. Sorry for causing you to stomp your little penny loafers, I hadn’t read this thread until now.